Hellturkey: Plucking their feathers

[dadieau]

CAG, your comment on fliers in 40K reminded me of an 80's micro armor game call AirTac. You had all of these way cool little tanks and some specialized infantry on a big board and the dominant arm were aircraft that you didn't even have models for. The air arm just swept across the board, trashed something and was gone. A very few ground units had a small chance of disrupting an attack run. Talk about a lack of interaction.

 

I find fliers irratating (I have not faced Heldrakes) but not unbalanced. Guard aircav I think is cool and an interesting addition to the game. As each new codex comes out more balance is restored to fliers. With just twin linked assault cannons and missile launchers with sky fire I have had enought success to give my local group pause. If every army was (as I'm sure they will be) as good against fliers they would not be quite so popular.

[knife&fork]

The worst offenders are the carry overs from 5th, vendettas and nightscythes. Vendettas in particular were a pretty good deal even before they got all the 6th ed flyer boons. 

[SamaNagol]

Vendettas are just too cheap. They still operate within the rules, they are just really good anti armour. You can ignore then. If they were pointed properly (a huge mistake and cop out from the Death From The Skies supplement to adjust this) they would be absolutely fine.

 

Night Scythes benefit HUGELY from their transport rules. They make objective games difficult against Necrons. The issue here, like Heldrakes, is the fact they circumvent the core rules that were designed to make flyers 'fair.

 

Heldrakes just take those rules and laugh in their face. AND they can decimate infantry and light armour alike.

[Drunken Angel]

Have you come across the FW 40K approved Guard Vulture gunship which I have been on the recieving end of.  155 points gets you a vendetta airframe and spec with a heavy bolter and a twin linked 20 shot S5 punisher gatling cannon.  Did I say it had strafing run and vector dancer too.  It vapourises troops out in the open.

Not complaining, just just telling you what else is out there.

[SamaNagol]

That gunship is INSANE. 

[knife&fork]

I've been on both ends of a vulture and while it's definitely good it's not quite as good as it looks at first. The TL-punisher (while brutal) have a fairly short range and in combination with wanting to make the most of vector dancer it makes placement somewhat predictable and it will be almost impossible to not expose the rear AV.   

 

 

Vendettas are just too cheap. They still operate within the rules, they are just really good anti armour. You can ignore then. If they were pointed properly (a huge mistake and cop out from the Death From The Skies supplement to adjust this) they would be absolutely fine.

 

Night Scythes benefit HUGELY from their transport rules. They make objective games difficult against Necrons. The issue here, like Heldrakes, is the fact they circumvent the core rules that were designed to make flyers 'fair.

 

Heldrakes just take those rules and laugh in their face. AND they can decimate infantry and light armour alike.

 

It's easy to forget when you play a 3+ codex but the Heldrake is fairly specialized. They kill expensive infantry well but wouldn't be worth taking if all they did in a game was to roast a few guardsmen, gaunts or orks. 

 

The flyer rules in general are a complete mess when you take a closer look... more holes than a wheel of cheese.

[IK Viper]

I personnally don't dislike flyers, I like what they add to the game, but I think they could be more balanced by increaseing the cost of some units that were pointed for 5th, Necron and IG flyers of course,  the thing is, the GK and BA Stormravens are priced well, why was the ball dropped on the Necron and IG units?  I also think the Night Sythes should be given hover and forced to disembark like normal.  That one power is amlost like being able to DS without scattering, without taking dangerous terrain, and boing able to both spread out (like a run move) and shoot all at once. So you are essentially violating the basic rules for DS, Dangerous Terrain, and Shooting phase rules all at once, not to mention having none of the consequences for taking the risk of loading units in a flyer.  This was never an issue in 5th but based on the new rules set it is a huge ability, they should haveto pay for it like anything else that good.  If you can FAQ a point change on a book that just came out (C:CSM) then surely you can do some retroactive balancing on older codexes.  I am not convinced GW is even concerned about balance across the game to be honest, I think they are trying to balance the new stuff but do not consider the Meta as a whole. 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I am not convinced GW is even concerned about balance across the game to be honest, I think they are trying to balance the new stuff but do not consider the Meta as a whole.

Nail on the head right there. Here in my town, a new FLGS opened up in the last 6 months. The owners are TCG gamers but they are super-friendly towards all the board-gamers, role-players and 40k-ers (including carrying product for those groups). Since they don't play 40k or know anything about it, I sat down with them to discuss how we can grow the Abilene 40k community.

 

Something the guy told me was shocking: He said the GW rep who was giving them information on how to become a GW retailer explained that "about 60% of GW sales are from hobbyists who don't even play the game"

 

I could only gape when he told me that. I mean I've met non-gamer hobbyists, but they are FAR from the majority as far as I know....

 

Whether that is all true or whether a lone case of a singular person's opinion, I can't be sure. What I AM sure is that GW never intended 40k to be a balanced Tournament game. If they cared at all about that, then they would have continuously updated FAQ documents (monthly), Tournament support packages, and a host of other options that are simply missing. Instead, we get Apocalypse, Planetstrike and 6th Editions Flyers.

 

GW wants 40k to be a hobby first and a beer&pretzels game second.

[IK Viper]

The thing is, they can do both with a little more effort on their part, and also give competative gamers a tight rules set that quickly responds to player feedback to balance and legitimize all armies/units

[SamaNagol]

If they utilised the ENORMOUS online community and the enthusiastic tournament players as a free resource, it could be done.

 

They have shown with the recent FAQs they want to try and fix a few things. But I don't know who or what they are listening to in order to make those decisions.

[StJude]

GW needs the new blood to take over, I am sorry to have to say this, but Jervis needs to go and younger designers need to take the helm.

 

Btw, awesome discussion so far on flyers and dealing with them. Some good information here I am gonna be taking into account.

[Iron Sage]

 

I am not convinced GW is even concerned about balance across the game to be honest, I think they are trying to balance the new stuff but do not consider the Meta as a whole.

Nail on the head right there. Here in my town, a new FLGS opened up in the last 6 months. The owners are TCG gamers but they are super-friendly towards all the board-gamers, role-players and 40k-ers (including carrying product for those groups). Since they don't play 40k or know anything about it, I sat down with them to discuss how we can grow the Abilene 40k community.

 

Something the guy told me was shocking: He said the GW rep who was giving them information on how to become a GW retailer explained that "about 60% of GW sales are from hobbyists who don't even play the game"

 

I could only gape when he told me that. I mean I've met non-gamer hobbyists, but they are FAR from the majority as far as I know....

 

Whether that is all true or whether a lone case of a singular person's opinion, I can't be sure. What I AM sure is that GW never intended 40k to be a balanced Tournament game. If they cared at all about that, then they would have continuously updated FAQ documents (monthly), Tournament support packages, and a host of other options that are simply missing. Instead, we get Apocalypse, Planetstrike and 6th Editions Flyers.

 

GW wants 40k to be a hobby first and a beer&pretzels game second.

Extreme digression this, I know (my apologies to everyone here), but I noted something you said about atmosphere concering a certain sub forum.

Well, I kind of (I guess) "belong" there, and well, I hate it intensly too. So if there is any remote chance of sane intelligent non-whining (aka people that dont behave like inflated brats on cocaine who just watched their mother die slowly in their hands) players with gaming experience, like you, Citadel, could start to perhaps pollute (cleanse) that particular sub forum with less...whiny and helpless posts, then I for one (and I suspect a LOT of other people who maybe chose to not post much due to the intensly negative atmosphere in that section, which really is driven forth by 5-6 people who are all methodical in the sorrowful songs of complaints that they sing, too loudly, day in and day out) would rejoice.

 

Anyway, just wanted to say that I tend to always read your posts in whatever sub sections they are found, since you for one tend to make a lot sense, as opposed to certain others in various sub forums. So please, continue voicing your thoughts and who knows, in a few years, the worst perpetrators of internet whine on B&C might find another hobby and stop posting here (I can always wish, as when I started to lurk here ca. 10 years ago, this place was a much better place, including that sub forum).

 

Eh, maybe I should just convert to "Loyalism" (ugh, now that word gave me a bad taste in my mouth :P ) and give up, lol.

[Iron Sage]

If they utilised the ENORMOUS online community and the enthusiastic tournament players as a free resource, it could be done.

 

They have shown with the recent FAQs they want to try and fix a few things. But I don't know who or what they are listening to in order to make those decisions.

True, but there are glaring issues concering that as well. Take a look around you at what some of the people on this very site can manage to write at times. Let me just give you a couple of examples:

 

A) Certain people, some with a large number of post counts (which IMO makes such nonsense worse) can in all honesty manage to write long posts, including meaningless mathhammering treatises, where they categorically butcher, say, the new daemon dex, since its not as onmi powerful as their own infamously unbalanced Grey Knights dex. According to these people, all 6ed codices sucks since they didnt continue the dread power creep which their own codex most notoriously personifies in certain ways. These people would have Mat ward writing everything in 40K, bringing every dex up to their "level" *Inserts rolling eyes*. These are gamers which IMO cares very, very little for balance at all to say the least.

 

B) Chaos sucks, as in sucks harder and tighter and deeper than anything Lovelace could ever have done. This is according to "zhe internet", and indeed, this very site. If chaos lists do okay in tournaments that is only due to the "one good unit in the dex"-helldragon.

 

C) According to the, quite often sad-seeming, geniouses online, only Imp. Guard., Necrons, GreyKnights and Ward codices in general, are at all "playable".

 

D) The above is depressing seagull droppings I read day out day in, on this very forum, written mostly by the same loud people with the odd hanger-ons.

 

E) This is why I hope GW doesn`t listen too closely, to the internet peeps, given that most of them seem pretty much only interested in having their very own codex support rock solid semi-OP builds, and very, very few here (at least on certain sub forums) care anything at all about general game balance.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Eh, maybe I should just convert to "Loyalism" (ugh, now that word gave me a bad taste in my mouth ) and give up, lol.

Join the sons of Sanguinius! We have ice cream... and kittens! Have you ever noticed how chicks dig our angel wings? LOOK AT THEM! *flap flap... cue holy chanting* BLOOD!

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Iron Sage you've got me laughing out loud over here. Love the posts--- and as I get more experience with my Iron Warriors, I'll certainly become much more active over in the CSM boards. Also because I'm about to take the plunge with my Blood Angels and am thinking about going Renegade-Loyal, even when using the BA codex rules.

 

As far as the actual thread and on-topic goes, I will be honest that I have never faced a Triple Turkey list. I have no doubt they make hash of MEQ armies, and especially Finesse MEQ armies (Pure-GK, BA, Ravenwing). At first I was fairly enthusiastic about the HD's ability to meta-shift LongFangs into non-viability... now I can see that comes with a hefty price-tag inflicted on the BA 'dex too.

[SamaNagol]

If they didn't shoot fire out of their buttocks, they would indeed meta-shift Long Fangs into a smaller role. Instead they meta-shift everything in 3+ armour into a smaller role

/

I think GW would definitely need to be careful about who they listened to. Ask people who actually can use the rules they write and be successful with them. I'd like to see better tournament reports actually. Full results lists with published army lists as well. You could start to 'follow' players who use your own faction or even your own flavour of that faction. It happens in RTS PC games afterall. And what are they if not technically advanced versions of 40k

But yeh, they should utilise the internet as a resource of 'beta testing'

[Iron Sage]

Iron Sage you've got me laughing out loud over here. Love the posts--- and as I get more experience with my Iron Warriors, I'll certainly become much more active over in the CSM boards. Also because I'm about to take the plunge with my Blood Angels and am thinking about going Renegade-Loyal, even when using the BA codex rules.

 

As far as the actual thread and on-topic goes, I will be honest that I have never faced a Triple Turkey list. I have no doubt they make hash of MEQ armies, and especially Finesse MEQ armies (Pure-GK, BA, Ravenwing). At first I was fairly enthusiastic about the HD's ability to meta-shift LongFangs into non-viability... now I can see that comes with a hefty price-tag inflicted on the BA 'dex too.

Hehe, thanks! glad you approved ;P I guess I sometimes need to vent a bit. The reason is of course that prior to me joining this site, I lurked here for many, many years. And indeed, the chaos sub forum has really changed for the worst I am sad to say.

 

Looking forward to the day you start building an Iron Warrriors army ;)