Hmm, if half the tau broadside rumors are true...

[Cmdr Shepard]

I don't know if CSMs are 'less powerful'.  They haven't been to date, but that may change with the advent of real anti-flier options.  but they're certainly less interesting.

 

Maybe I didn't use the right words. I just wanted to say compared to other codices they lack the options to be versatile like most of their enemies.

[the jeske]

1 trick army when your trying to get mono csm . And as much as I would like it to be true there is realy little to no difference between game play of a 2xoblits/1xhavocks and a 2xhavock/1xoblits list . same with drakes vs bikes. 2 bikes+1drake and 2 drakes and 1 bikes or no bikes little difference in game play. On the other hand [am just taking mono builds here] DA can build a salvo build , a minimax list with DW support , a DW/RW list. Even if one ignores the tournament viability of those , our odd builds were mauler/chaozylla lists[which demons do better] and that is kind of a it. the fact that aside for huron our specials dont realy slap us in the face and yelling "put me in your list" doesnt help either.

[Tenebris]

I don't have the needed experience to comment or contradict Jeske but I am under the impression that chaos marines is quite the minmax codex with the marks that allow you to exactly create a squad for the specific role you intend them to have on the battlefield. Now luckily for me only one player has Tau in substantial numbers to appear in the next club tournaments but as I have said I predict many marine armies to take Tau as allies for some added fire support or AA. 

 

Said that I presume that the chaos answer to anything dangerous enough to be classified as a shooty armored thingy is the Maulerfiend. It is, at least from my experience, quite the speedy beasty thing and it can be dangerous for a vehicle or in this case a robot. Said that I presume the Helldrake will always be a staple of the chaos lists since it has several uses and a flying flamer is always welcome but I suspect that we of chaos will have to rely on our melee beast from now on. Failing that the answer is in more cultist bodies to bubble wrap our prime units.

 

Now while the 'zilla' part is nowdays much better with chaos daemons I think that we still have some steam in the chaos marines codex and perhaps we will find the use for some unorthodox tactics, we are chaos space marines afterall, unorthodoxy is our speciality. 

[Sception]

The problem is, for all the marks do different things, CSMs do the same things - midfield objective grabbing, short range anti infantry shooting, and counter/support assault.  No build or set up turns them into a real assault unit (ie, one with the speed to force assaults early game), no build turns them into a serious long range threat, etc.  You can be twelve different shades of bolter guys on foot or in a rhino, but you're still bolter guys on foot or in a rhino, and you're still completely outclassed by noise marines for long range, cultists for backfield objective camping & infantry speed character escort, and plague marines for literally everything else.  And whatever your CSM unit does do, basically every other brand of marine does better, because ATSKNF is just that good.  And as soon as you're playing with allies, you have two more slots of better troop options.  Almost doesn't even matter which ally you select.

 

All that said, I wouldn't call CSMs "bad".  Not by my standard anyway (as I understand it Jeske's definition is "could have taken something better instead", under which yes I'd call them bad).  but I certainly wouldn't call them "good" either, and for all their variety they tend to come out looking and playing the same regardless.  If they had a valid assault transport option, or drop pods, then you might get some more real diversity out of them, but you don't.  As it is, you get more real variety out of a basic Space Marine tactical squad, between their transport options and combat tactics, then you get out of all the marks and icons combined.

 

Having more nominal options doesn't add real gameplay variety if most of those options aren't good, or if they end up doing mostly the same things.  And there's too much of both of that (options that are just bad, options that aren't sufficiently distinct from other options to matter) in the CSM book.  It's still better in this regard than the last book, just not by enough.

[Nehekhare]

marks that allow you to exactly create a squad for the specific role

 

that is the problem. CSM suffer from some inherent weaknesses (no delivery, no morale immunity), so to be viable/effective/comparable ot loyalists, you have to specialize. After you have paid your points for those options, however, the CSM cost more than those loyalist "equivalents". so either you have less - or pay more, both of which equal being worse. paying for "versatility" (i.e. being allowed to buy options by paying more) is bad game design.

 

chaos will have to rely on our melee beast from now on. Failing that the answer is in more cultist bodies to bubble wrap our prime units.

maulerfiends die fast and work well against non-walker-vehicles only - hardly reyable. Cultists are to guardsmen what CSM are to Space Marines (see above). Exept those loyalist armies actually have prime units ;)

[the jeske]

well guess its back to the huron infiltration build or that stupid tyfus zombis list . which I personaly think should be banned from any for of tournament play. an army which can legaly make you go to time playing 2-3 turns is just bad for the enviroment and encourages some realy bad behaviour from people.

 

I wouldnt call csm bad either. boring? yes. playing the same thing we did under gav dex ? yes , we just kind of a cut the dp in smaller parts and turned him in to a lord+bikes which do exactly the same thing a DP did . But let us not star another GW hates chaos players off topic .

 

We should be happy that tau bring fresh wind to other people armies , that the meta game is going to shift .slogger SW may got better now, which should mean our slogger builds get better too . IG will have even more options to play with as will loyalist meq , but what is new in that . all in all a very good update. only thing that maybe  a problem is the cost of a new army

 

6 broadsides .1 riptide 4 firewarrior squads 2 bombers 20 IG with las/plas +vet section in chimera 2 vendettas or 2x10 GH+2pods+RP , the aegis and the new hardcover codex costs a lot of cash for a starter army. In fact it maybe one of the things that will make tau not so popular among players.

[Tenebris]

Well since the space communists will be out soon we will have to plan accordingly. The leaks suggest a mobile ranged army, with several strong infiltrator units and proper AA defenses. Now which are the best ways to counter that as a chaos marine. Deep striking terminators and raptors, maulerfiends on the charge, an increase in chaos armor platforms on board, cultist spam or the overused nurgle zombie apocalypse?

 

More than the ranged shooting and Tau AA I am more worried about the ton of inlfitrators that a Tau player can bring, as well as a good number of deep striking suits. That is a thing that would require some tactics. As for the army wide overwatch cover from nearby units dirge  caster rhinos and land raiders will be the norm I presume. 

[minigun762]

Lets shift the conversation back towards how to beat the blue skinned Xeno menace. Discussing other disgusting Xenos or the respective power level of our codex are topics for another time and place.

[Ammonius]

Well, I know that I will be monitoring the local Tau purchases as best I can, and my plans to fight NewTau are as follows:

 

1) I am already building a barrage-heavy Chaos Guard ally detachment, so that's going to see a lot of use. Pinning tests and Earthshakers aimed at objective sitters, and maybe down the road a Colossus to deny cover saves.

 

2) If folks are stocking up on lots of non-aoe things, I plan on putting the 80 cultist models I own into my paint que. If infiltrating them via Huron works out, maybe I'll buy up to 105.

 

3) I think I will try out some noise marines, to get more shooting that denies cover saves, especally if I'm shooting across a sea of cultists and a wall of Spawn.

 

4) Since I'm leading a terrain project for a FLGS Kill-Team league, I will make sure there are plenty of ways to limit those 72" ranges.

[Tenebris]

My plan is, 4x Noise Marine MSU with Blastmaster, 2x Maulerfiend in charge, 2x Chaos Terminators to deep strike some plasma where is needed and Obliterators in mid battlefield as soon as possible to unleash as much aoe damage as possible. I wonder if the Tau players opt for a gunline behind some sort of defense wouldn't be a smart move to deep strike an Obliterator and heavy flamer/twin linked flamer them?

[Azekai]

2) If folks are stocking up on lots of non-aoe things, I plan on putting the 80 cultist models I own into my paint que. If infiltrating

them via Huron works out, maybe I'll buy up to 105.

 

From what I have seen, some tau units can 'overcharge' to get s8 blasts. Not sure how accurate those rumors are, but if that is true then the Tau will be able to easily toggle between 'kill armor' and 'kill horde' mode.

[minigun762]

Improved overwatch is easily countered by dirge casters and they are a cheap addition.

 

Might have more reason to swap AC havocs to lascannons.

[Tenebris]

Improved overwatch is easily countered by dirge casters and they are a cheap addition.

 

Indeed but first a Rhino has to arrive intact there and with all the plasma weapons in a Tau arsenal it might be a tough call. Now that I think of the Tau are one of those armies where the Warp Talons might get some use with their Blind rule. Their setup should be in theory quite the counter to a Fire Warrior squad and other ranged units. 

[Brother Ambroz]

What about a MoN spawn tide sort of list with some Maulerfiends added in for synergy? Seems like it would be a decent counter.

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

Improved overwatch is easily countered by dirge casters and they are a cheap addition.

 

Indeed but first a Rhino has to arrive intact there

 

This. Not to mention the fact new Tau should be able to deal with AV14 as well. So even a Land Raider may encounter difficulties in getting to destination.

 

 

  Now that I think of the Tau are one of those armies where the Warp Talons might get some use with their Blind rule. Their setup should be in theory quite the counter to a Fire Warrior squad and other ranged units.

 

They have too risk a deep strike very close to enemy units in order for their ability to take place and even though all goes as planned they still 50% chances to pass the Ini check. Also, and I'd say most importantly, there will always be other shooty units outside Talons' "blind range" with a line of sight and range who will open fire on them.

They would drop in the middle of a gun line who could kill them even if a couple of units are forced to snap shots on them.

I don't want to ruin the fun, Brother.... I'm just expressing my opinion on what could create a lot of problems to our CSM armies.

 

 

What about a MoN spawn tide sort of list with some Maulerfiends added in for synergy? Seems like it would be a decent counter.

 

Keep in mind their standard rapid fire weapons have S5, so a +1S bolter, and they can put on the field an insane number of weapon who will wound them on 3+ or 2+.

Personally I think spawn will survive longer than maulerfiends. They are multi wounds models while a hammerhead will pen the mauler on 3+ and if it fails its invul it suffer a +2 modifier on the damage roll.

[Brother Ambroz]

Which is why I said MoN spawn. That way they wouldn't be ID'd and they'd still have to go through 15 some wounds per squad. At 2k, there would without a doubt be some spawn that reach enemy lines and if they do focus on spawn that would leave the fiends to do whatever. Still though, pretty much all our vehicles are very very easy targets for railguns.

[minigun762]

It's the old adage of if they are blasting your rhinos, they aren't blasting your troops. I still like having an extra layer of protection between my troops and the enemy's guns.

[Trevak Dal]

Something I believe you guys may not be considering with Warp Talons and Raptors is...they cause Fear.

 

And Tau alone will be subject to it.

[Nehekhare]

so their WS of 2 will drop by 1 in CC if they fail a LD test?

wow.

without fear, CSM wouldn't stand a chance...;)

[Cmdr Shepard]

Which is why I said MoN spawn. That way they wouldn't be ID'd and they'd still have to go through 15 some wounds per squad. At 2k, there would without a doubt be some spawn that reach enemy lines and if they do focus on spawn that would leave the fiends to do whatever. Still though, pretty much all our vehicles are very very easy targets for railguns.

But railguns are not the only guns they can field. We have to wait the Codex and then start some playtest in order to see which CSM units will be effective.

Consider Jet infatry can move 2d6" in the assault phase so it won't be that difficult for them to delay spawn charges for at least one more turn. Aslo what will happen if their entire gun line succeed in overwatching against our poor spawns?

As I said, we'll have to wait ;)

It's the old adage of if they are blasting your rhinos, they aren't blasting your troops. I still like having an extra layer of protection between my troops and the enemy's guns.

True. Only problem is the existence of First Blood. Railgun destroys rhino, Tau gains 1 VP. Anyway life it's not perfect so it's a risk we have to take. The sooner CSM are in cc the sooner Tau stop killing them with their insane weaponery... ;)

[minigun762]

It's the old adage of if they are blasting your rhinos, they aren't blasting your troops. I still like having an extra layer of protection between my troops and the enemy's guns.

True. Only problem is the existence of First Blood. Railgun destroys rhino, Tau gains 1 VP. Anyway life it's not perfect so it's a risk we have to take. The sooner CSM are in cc the sooner Tau stop killing them with their insane weaponery...

I feel like people are overly worried about first blood. Yes rhinos are fairly easy to pop but I feel its bad list building to not take useful units because of a slightly increased chance to give up a single point.

If all of your games come down to a single point difference, maybe consider going with land raiders instead, or only using 20 man squads of CSMs, or look for a tactical or deployment chance you could've made.

Tau, like IG, are armies which your basic CSM does well against. You don't need I5 or T5/FnP or 4 attacks on the charge or anything like that. The basic MEQ statline is more than sufficient to beat them down in the assault phase and adding more bodies helps give you enough durability to weather their insane weaponry.

[Cmdr Shepard]

It's the old adage of if they are blasting your rhinos, they aren't blasting your troops. I still like having an extra layer of protection between my troops and the enemy's guns.

True. Only problem is the existence of First Blood. Railgun destroys rhino, Tau gains 1 VP. Anyway life it's not perfect so it's a risk we have to take. The sooner CSM are in cc the sooner Tau stop killing them with their insane weaponery...

I feel like people are overly worried about first blood. Yes rhinos are fairly easy to pop but I feel its bad list building to not take useful units because of a slightly increased chance to give up a single point.

If all of your games come down to a single point difference, maybe consider going with land raiders instead, or only using 20 man squads of CSMs, or look for a tactical or deployment chance you could've made.

Tau, like IG, are armies which your basic CSM does well against. You don't need I5 or T5/FnP or 4 attacks on the charge or anything like that. The basic MEQ statline is more than sufficient to beat them down in the assault phase and adding more bodies helps give you enough durability to weather their insane weaponry.

But I won several matches thanks to first blood.

Anyway I'm not saying CSM do bad against Tau (we don't even the Codex, so it's just speculation) but that strong shooty armies are though opponents, especially when they can cover every field.

6th Edition it's the "shooting phase" edition. Even when I pay MEQ vs MEQ the shooting phase is getting far more important. It's not an illogic thing since 40K it's Sci-Fi not Fantasy.

In fantasy is logical for the shooting phase to be secondary to close combat and magic but science fiction is about high tech weapons... well at least a military science fiction like 40K ;)

I remember when many armies needed to just bring a sword to firefight in order to win. Now it seems the ranged weapons are getting more relevant.

In such context if Tau rumors are correct they will have the most effective collection of ranged weapons ;)

As I said it's just a speculation... maybe when Codex is out we may realize Tau have to pay so much for their toys to be unplayable... we have just to wait, I suppose ;)

[hornywingythingy]

Yeah, sereral of the brb missions are very dependant on first blood, its one of the flaws of the sixth ed missions. Building your list around minimising that is sensible for competitive play.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Yeah, sereral of the brb missions are very dependant on first blood, its one of the flaws of the sixth ed missions. Building your list around minimising that is sensible for competitive play.

 

Just think about the "capture enemy base" mission. If everyone holds their own base than you win with First Blood, Slay the Warlord and/or line breaker.

 

There is a thing I have still to understand: why killing an unit before your opponent kill one of your gives you a so significant strategic advantage is still a mystery to me...

[the jeske]

 

Yeah, sereral of the brb missions are very dependant on first blood, its one of the flaws of the sixth ed missions. Building your list around minimising that is sensible for competitive play.

 

Just think about the "capture enemy base" mission. If everyone holds their own base than you win with First Blood, Slay the Warlord and/or line breaker.

 

There is a thing I have still to understand: why killing an unit before your opponent kill one of your gives you a so significant strategic advantage is still a mystery to me...

random roll decides something . according to people from DT it is the thing that is most awesome about w40k.