Deathwing Command Squad - Anyone using it?

[Upstartes]

Simple question, really. Is anyone out there playing with a Deathwing command squad? I haven't seen them discussed much. I've got enough bits laying around to build one up without buying anything new, so I'm just curious. If you are using one, how have you used it, with what loadout, and what have your results been?

[[TA]Typher]

I haven't yet, but I plan on it.

[Brother Amarel]

Not me. I want to, for the Champ, but normal Deathwing as Troops is just too good.

[Artemid]

Not me. I want to, for the Champ, but normal Deathwing as Troops is just too good.

 

This. Champ and Banner can be awesome but everything is more expensive and I'm having a really hard time finding the points. Maybe in a 2k twin raider 5 DW squad list.

[IndigoJack]

I haven't had a chance to try one yet, but I plan to but the SoD with them, decking them with a CML, apothecary, and as many storm shields as I can, and using them to support a drop pod list.

[Cod]

Sounds interesting.

 

I'm in a similar situation.

I dont have any termies assembled yet and find myself in a mode of circular arguments with myself. I have the parts to make a dw command squad. Should I really? Probably not, but... the figures just look so good, a mix of weapons, banner, medic, champ. And I would probably only add them into a large force, so for me points wouldn't matter so much. They don't take up a slot on the foc either.

 

Were you thinking of adding any character's with them?

[Master Avoghai]

Don't have yet.

 

I have the models I know what I would play, but didn't have the occasion yet.

 

The reason is, like I've explained in another topic, I see 2 occasions to take a DW command squad :

 

A pure (or quasi pure) DW army.

A Mixwing army leaded by a chappy or a libby in termi armour.

 

And until now, I've never played such game.

 

The rationnel behind that is, if I play Belial, I have the choice between taking a non scoring command squad or a scoring "tactical" termi squad.

Let's analyze what the command squad offers you :

Apothecary : don't ike this option cause it makes you lose 2PF A and can be easily replace by a non challenging standard Bearer with SoFortitude.

Champion : nice but can not really superior to a sgt with TH/SS

Standard Bearer : You have 2 solutions : Giving the standard of Fortitude. This is costly and should be played only in a pure DW army to create a large force of FNP termis. The other one is the DW banner. Cheaper and can compensate the loss of the 2A of the apoc...

 

Long story short there are 2 type of command squad.

Type 1: Champion, Apoc, SB with DW banner, Heavy Weapon, 5th marine (with TH/SS) : around 325 pts

Type 2: Champion, SB with standard of fortitude, Heavy weapon, 4th and 5th marine (one with TH/SS) : around 325pts

 

 

Now let's compare with a tactical squad :

Sgt with TH/SS, Heavy weapon, 3rd marine with TH/SS, 4th marine with LCs, 5th marine with PF/SB : around 250pt

 

The squad is a little less resilient, have 2 or 3 less A of PF (comparing to type1) but is scoring... 

 

Most of the games I play are 1850pts 2000pts games, therefore a difference of 75/80 pts is huge.

 

In an army not lead by Belial, I may pay the difference because my termis are not scoring anyway so if I take some, I want them to be REALLY dangerous.

If I play a pure DW army, I'm ok too because I already have 3 or 4 termis units as scoring and the SoF may give FNP to all of them.

 

But in a mixwing army lead by Belial, I'm already short on points and I prefer having a scoring unit that doesn't scatter when I DS on an objective.

 

 

my 2 cents ;-)

[Aegnor]

I play mainly for fun, so have done up a Command Squad. Haven't given a run yet.

 

@ Avoghai - one suggestion/question with your CS composition - I've made the standard bearer carry the TH/SS, want him to be the most durable.

 

I've done my squad as Champion, Apothecary, Standard Bearer with TH/SS, Plasma Cannon, SB+Chainfist. Will probably run them with the Deathwing Banner.

[Onisuzume]

Standard Bearer : You have 2 solutions : Giving the standard of Fortitude. This is costly and should be played only in a pure DW army to create a large force of FNP termis. The other one is the DW banner. Cheaper and can compensate the loss of the 2A of the apoc...

The Apoc would still have a CCW, afaik, just without anything special.

That said, the SoF would still be a better option.

 

As for the DW banner, I'm not convinced of its worth.

Since it only grants the bonus to friendly models with the IS rule within 6".

Which would be up to 4 terminators in a line prodived they're in BtB contact.

So the unit you want to benefit from it (DW Knights) are likely out of range.

[Brother Immolator]

Not me. I want to, for the Champ, but normal Deathwing as Troops is just too good.

 

Deathwing as troops with FNP is even better :D

 

I play tested on a full deathwing list. To me its a must with the banner of fortitude.

If you play full deathwing you already have enough scoring units since you will fill your troop alotment first.

So its worth it to sacrifice one with an elites slot to be non scorring, the FNP bubble and the champion are priceless.

[Master Avoghai]

@ Avoghai - one suggestion/question with your CS composition - I've made the standard bearer carry the TH/SS, want him to be the most durable.

Yes my SB with deathwing banner has a TH/SS. More because I designed him like that few years ago than for a strategic aspect.

 

Don't know if it adds anything with the v6 allocation rules.

[Rizara]

How is the champion not better than a termie with th/SMS. Yes he doesn't hit as hard and doesn't get the bonus invunerable, but he is Ws 5, str 6 ap2 striking at iniative, and only for 5 points. He is by far the best upgrade in the command squad. The apothecary has its benefits but lacking any real punch in melee is his weakness but he is a support upgrade. The standards are great but expensive. Also taking an apothecary helps to justify taking a plasma cannon because of the fnp roll.

 

That being said, I will agree, in a non dw list the command squad can come in handy when your termies are not troops to begin with. In an all dw list, it is still not bad to take one command squad because you will be taking troops anyways, but it competes more so in smaller games. I can't see taking a command squad in less than 2000 points.

[elphilo]

I just don't understand how you guys are fitting this into a Pure Deathwing list. Every time I try to take a command squad I end up dropping it so I can get more objective takers on the board

[Dark_Master]

I really want a command squad, but can't justify the non scoring unit.

 

I'd rather have a squad of DW Knights with Belial, to Teleport or Crusader in with.

 

DM

[Master Avoghai]

How is the champion not better than a termie with th/SMS. Yes he doesn't hit as hard and doesn't get the bonus invunerable, but he is Ws 5, str 6 ap2 striking at iniative, and only for 5 points. He is by far the best upgrade in the command squad

But the S8 and the inv save is the thing that make a vet sgt as good if not far better.

S8 allow to insta kill Meq and what if your champion is challenged by a I5 character? The inv save gives you better chances to strike.

 

Sure champ is a good option but if I had the choice between him or a champ with TH/SS, I don't know what I'd take but I think I'd probably go for the sgt.

[IndigoJack]

I just don't understand how you guys are fitting this into a Pure Deathwing list. Every time I try to take a command squad I end up dropping it so I can get more objective takers on the board

In a pure DW army, I wouldn't recommend it since you're taking away scoring bodies. In a hybrid DW army, it woks fine.

[Rizara]

if my champion was challenged by an init 5 character or higher, bar a slannesh champion, I would actually be estatic that they challenged, because it means I may lose my champion, but I am not losing my entire squad to the character, and my squad can get to beat up the rest of the unit his character is in.  But considering most AP2 weapons are often strike last, that means that my champion will probably get his 2+ save against said I5 challenger, and on the chance that it is an AP2 weapon that strikes at a faster iniative, it most likely wont instant gib my champion, so even if I do fail the save of 5++, i can probably get my FNP roll against it too. 

 

So actually in that situation, your argument is sort of invalid since the champion still is cheaper than most sergeants with a TH and SS and gets all those benefits, and most I5 characters that will really threaten a champion out of his invunerable save I would get to swing first against anyways. 

 

I haven't played many games in 6th, only two, but I will say that from experience so far, striking last has been more of a burden than getting to strike at initiative, more often than not, and to get a character that can strike in initiative, in terminator armor, with an ap2 weapon, that is also str 6, is a blessing.   The problem isn't whether or not the DW champion is worth it, if I am going to take a command squad, then i am taking the champion, its just hard to squeeze in a DW Command squad in low points cost games cause of its cost, and it competeing against other more well rounded and better units when I can spend the points, such as DW knights, Ravenwing, or normal Terminator as troops in DW lists. 

 

I still invested, and painted a lovely DW command squad, even if it wont see battle very often, they look darn nice, and it makes me want to field them, just for the hotness factor on a good looking unit, even if they do make my army suffer more.  (and I made my command unit with the robes so they look as great if not better than the DW knights look)

[marvmoogy]

I played a DW command squad in a recent game against the blood angels.

 

I took the DW Standard (+1 attack) Champion but left out the Apothecary as I couldn't spare the points and I thought a 2+/3++/5++ (I had some storm shields) would be more than enough!

 

I packed them into my LR Crusader and headed off.  In the first round of CC, they were immense.  To the point that my CC and the Temrie I-C (with Mace of Redemption) wiped out a 10-man assault squad with chaplain and Sanguinery Priest...or whatever the heck they're called!  

 

I've only used them once, and they won the game for me in turn two (the rest of the opponents army suffered massively from 3 tac squads in range of the dakka-banner). 

 

I have a friend who plays eldar and always manages to beat my GKs.  I've not played him with DA yet so I'm going to try again with this tactic and will 100% be taking the DW Command Squad with me again.

[Master Avoghai]

 

if my champion was challenged by an init 5 character or higher, bar a slannesh champion, I would actually be estatic that they challenged, because it means I may lose my champion, but I am not losing my entire squad to the character, and my squad can get to beat up the rest of the unit his character is in.  But considering most AP2 weapons are often strike last, that means that my champion will probably get his 2+ save against said I5 challenger, and on the chance that it is an AP2 weapon that strikes at a faster iniative, it most likely wont instant gib my champion, so even if I do fail the save of 5++, i can probably get my FNP roll against it too. 

 

 

But here your reasonning implies that you've paid for an apoc hence you're comparing a 35pts upgrade and a 5 pts upgrade. It's just not a fair comparison

 

AP2 weapon strikes last when they are of high strength. and that's the key of the problem. S4 or 5 will wound your model not easily, but with a 5++ save, you're likely to fail.

 

Long story short : against AP2 weapons, the sgt have more chance to survive and will hit stronger.

                             against AP3 weapon, the sgt and the champion have the same chance to survive but the sgt will hit harder.

The only benefit of the champion is I3 or 2 models because he may prevent them to strike.

 

But that's why I say that champion is not better or worse than a sgt with TH/SS : both have their favorite targets.

 

 

 

So actually in that situation, your argument is sort of invalid since the champion still is cheaper than most sergeants with a TH and SS and gets all those benefits,

I don't know where you've seen that Sgt are more costly than a champ. Both cost 5pts more than a normal termi :unsure:

[ilnar]

I use one when I take Sammy and ravening as my primary, or if I'm playing primarily greenwing

But ironically, if I'm playing DW I can't justify losing the troops choice. If I'm going to have a non scoring termi unit, it's always going to be the DWK over the command squad. Those guys are nasty, and surprisingly cheap compared to even a 5 man termi squad.

I imagine playing over 2k pure DW i would take one, but they would probably footslog behind to give FNP to the termies who aren't deep striking.

[Rizara]

Well, my bad on the cost their, wasn't looking at the codex directly.  Also where does it state that Ap2 only strike last when of high strength.   Power axes are Ap2, and all they provide is a +1 str bonus.  They still strike last.  Powerfists, chain fists, and thunderhammers are also all AP2, and they double str, and strike last.    Their are a few, and i do mean a few exceptions where an AP2 weapon will strike at initiative, and they are maybe a few special characters, and I don't recall many except for sammaels sword, and the champions weapon.   I haven't looked through most of the other codex's recently to see any ap2 weapons that do strike at initative but even still they are rare.  High Strength does't mean it has to strike last, it just happens to be that most of the weapons that give high strength do strike last, and they happen to be ap2, because of the fact that they are high str.  

 

But as I said, if your taking a command squad, you might as well take the champion.  Even if you don't opt for the apothecary, but the apothecary does provide support benefits.   I do not argue against the fact that a troop choice would still be a better choice, and in that respect, your only option is the sergeant, and well, for only 5 pts, giving him a th and ss will be a great blessing, if you feel you need it and aren't going for a shooting squad.  This then boils more down to army list design, playstyle, and what you need said unit to accomplish.  It also depends on if your fielding a cheap DW troop choice, or a squad you can afford to tool out.   

[Brother Immolator]

Strength and Initiave have no corelation. The mace/crozius/maul/bludgeon of doom is a str 6 weapon that strikes at I.

[march10k]

I have no intention of ever fielding the unit...but I'm damned well modeling it.  I already have the APOC converted up from the previous edition, and he'll NOT be losing his powerfist.  And I painted up a champion...and the banner is partly done (no hurry, when it's done, I lose a termy, lol, since I have to mount it somewhere...)

 

/edit/

 

DW just doesn't have enough scoring units, so taking more than one non-scoring squad is suicide...and knights trump command.

[Brother Immolator]

I wonder since 4 scoring units are not enough though.

[Artemid]

I wonder since 4 scoring units are not enough though.

When that's 90% of your army probably, haha.

 

I do think at 2k pure DW you might be able to run one, but I haven't crunched the numbers.