RAS vs. Black Knights

[Landdavi]

Brothers,

 

What's better RAS or BKs?

 

RAS (3 bikes, 2 Plasma, 1 Sgt with PS and Melta Bombs)

BKs (3 bikes, Plasma Talons, Corvus Hammers, optional 1 RWGL)

 

around 130 pts

 

RAS (4 bikes, 2 Plasma, 1 Sgt with PS and Melta Bombs-- MMAB), 

BKs (5 bikes, Plasma Talons, Corvus Hammers, optional 1 RWGL) 

 

around 210

 

RAS (6 bikes, 2 Pasma, 1 Sgt with PS and Melta Bombs, MMAB and Typhoon (take your pick melta-melta, dbl hvy flamers, missile and HB)

BKs  (8 bikes, Plasma Talons, Corvus Hammers, optional 2 RWGL)

 

around 341

 

Thanks in advance

 

For the LIon

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

BKs methinks They have same staying power as bikes but pack more punch in ranged and melee combat. RWGL shouldn't be optional.. it's a great force multiplier.

[MadMek83]

IMHO that depends on your HQ. If you got Sammael, I think RAS since they can score. If you got someone else: Black Knights. Plasma Talon, RWGL and corvus hammers are BIG equalizer. Unit that is hit with both stasis and rad shells and then gets assaulted by black knights is pretty much doomed... Well those that survive volley of plasma talons anyway.

[Master Avoghai]

For the 2 first comparisons I'd say BK without an hesitation. A BK is a 4S5 rending attack in charge, that after delivering 2 rerollable plasma shots.

For the 3rd comparison, it's different cos I'd never play a squad of BK over 6 men.

The complete RAS is great in an army with Sammael.

 

Other than that, I really see RW bikes as tank hunters with a 4 bikes/2meltas configuration in outflank

[Brother dean]

Depends on what you want to do.  BKs cannot score or combat squad.

[Upstartes]

As others have said, I think the answer depends entirely on your list, and the role that you want this squad to fill.

 

If I were fielding 3 bikes only, I'd probably field a 3-man RAS with melta and a bare-bones sergeant. This team is a hunter of hard targets, and not as expensive as the 3-man BK team. 3-man BK teams seem fragile to me - I wouldn't want to throw them into assault, which is what they're really good at.

 

Adding an MMAB gives a lot of hard-target hunting flexibility, and the bike operates independently.

 

If you're list is built around Sammy or Azzy, then the RAS will be scoring, and you'll probably want one or two of them no matter what, possibly backed up by BK.

 

If, on the other hand, you've got a list that doesn't involve scoring bikes, and the bike unit is going to be for harassment, rapid response, and getting into close combat, then a 5-or-6-man BK squad is going to be better at that. They also provide some ability to deal with enemy air support with their twin-linked plasma and their ability to maneuver into the tasty rear arc of some flyers.

 

So the questions are: what is the mission of this bike team, and what is the composition of your army?

[Landdavi]

Thanks for the replies.  I am playing Ravenwing or MIxed Wing, always with Sammy to make the bikes scoring.  Yesterday, I heard someone give their opinion on what BKs should cost and that got me to thinking whether I was getting food value or not.   I think it is interesting as the RAS can choose meltas or plasma.  The meltas are good for hard tgts and the plasma gives you more stand-off range than the talons.  Of course no one said it yet but the RAS can also take advantage of the SOD.  In my case, I'm trying to sort out do I want more BKs or more RAS in an 1850 point list.  

 

I appreciate your input.  Thanks. 

[cypherthefallenangel]

How many ras squads are you taking now?

I take 3x6man ras and mmab squads and it is usually more than enough scoring units. I then cram in as many Bks as I can usually around 9-15 bk(including command). They have literally won for me, every game ive played using my ravenwing. Pure awesome. I add in a dark shroud for the 2+,3+ cover saves. if anything in our new codex is OP its this combo. 15 bks and a Ds moving into position all getting 2+ saves. Its a big pain in the a** for your opponent. They will waste most of their shooting trying to stop them. Leaving the RAS alone. If they don't their in big trouble. more squads are going to be more useful than a big one. I generally take 2 squads of 5 or 6 knights @ 1850.

[Syphid]

For the RAS Sgt, Lightning Claw is better than Power Sword as you only have one weapon and don't get the extra attack.

[Eulfein]

Depends on what you want to do.  BKs cannot score or combat squad.

I agree with Brother Dean. It really depends what you are trying to accomplish. RAS can score while RBKs are able to give the much needed punch the Ravenwing needs. JUst my two cents brothers.

[Landdavi]

I'm glad to see some comments continue to come in.  I was concerned that when I gave some comments on what I run at 1850 t would turn inro a critique on the list versus the units.  Comments like the lightning claw vs. power sword or gold nuggets for me as I can tweak the unit.  I think the points on these two units are fairly comparable yet the RAS is very flexible while the BKs have great weapons and special rules.  I am kind of interested to see how small and large units of these bikes are effective in various scenarios.  

 

For example, I've now done two days of 400 pt kill teams during the past couple of months.  I played about 9 different opponents.My list consisted of 

 

3 BKs with 1 RWGL

1 RAS 3 bikes (no specials) the sgt had a combi flamer and melta bombs + MMAB  (the huntmaster had melta bombs)

1 dreadnought with 2 twin-linked auto-cannons

 

Despite the low head count the force was very effective and I only faced one player that truly game me trouble.  He was dark eldar and fielded 29 models shooting poison that negated the bikers toughness buff.  He mentioned in passing the dark eldar were the bane of biker armies and tryanids, I think because of high head count and poison.  

 

Well it works well in kill teams.  My issue was I couldn't charge after I shot and killed what I shot at.  I had thought about bringing a LS with Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer but you have to fly up to your targets vs. deep strike, so I didn't bring one.  The RWGL shooting 2 small blasts of strength 3 frag grenades was however great against eldar.  

 

For me, I'd like to build a competitive all-rounder list at 1850 that is also fun to play.  So far, the RW are fun but my experience is limited.  The other weekend, I looked at a couple of crusaders across the table and was grateful for melta, this week the dark eldar have me considering how much I need to consider low toughness, anti- troop.