Soooo....Tau?

[notmattlythgoe]

Going to try out a version of your list tomorrow night March.

 

1500 points

 

Belial

Techmarine w PFG

5 DWK in LRC

2x 5 DWT w/ CF and HF

5 DWT w/ CF and AC

 

Edit: added total points

[elphilo]

I think not having that second LRC is going to make the scary factor of this list drop significantly. If push comes to shove I would drop one of the deep striking troops instead of one of the LRCs. I personally don't like it, but I would. That 2nd LRC is key in the list I feel

[notmattlythgoe]

I think not having that second LRC is going to make the scary factor of this list drop significantly. If push comes to shove I would drop one of the deep striking troops instead of one of the LRCs. I personally don't like it, but I would. That 2nd LRC is key in the list I feel

And only have 2 scoring units at 1500 points? I think not. The game is also a 2v2 game with each team taking 1500 points per player. I'm playing with a Cron player and against a Tau and CSM player.

[elphilo]

I think not having that second LRC is going to make the scary factor of this list drop significantly. If push comes to shove I would drop one of the deep striking troops instead of one of the LRCs. I personally don't like it, but I would. That 2nd LRC is key in the list I feel

And only have 2 scoring units at 1500 points? I think not. The game is also a 2v2 game with each team taking 1500 points per player. I'm playing with a Cron player and against a Tau and CSM player.

Like I said, I wouldn't like it (because of the only 2 scoring units) but I would take that second land raider. And I would especially take it if it was a 2v2. Just have your partner take all the scoring units!

[notmattlythgoe]

I think not having that second LRC is going to make the scary factor of this list drop significantly. If push comes to shove I would drop one of the deep striking troops instead of one of the LRCs. I personally don't like it, but I would. That 2nd LRC is key in the list I feel

And only have 2 scoring units at 1500 points? I think not. The game is also a 2v2 game with each team taking 1500 points per player. I'm playing with a Cron player and against a Tau and CSM player.

Like I said, I wouldn't like it (because of the only 2 scoring units) but I would take that second land raider. And I would especially take it if it was a 2v2. Just have your partner take all the scoring units!

I'm going to give this a try and see how it goes this weekend. I just really don't like the option of only having 3 units of terminators total at 1500 points. One bit of bad luck and I'm basically out of the game. If they pop my one LR early I can at least still DS those 3 units in without using Belial's homer.

[Vash]

Going to try out a version of your list tomorrow night March.

 

1500 points

 

Belial

Techmarine w PFG

5 DWK in LRC

2x 5 DWT w/ CF and HF

5 DWT w/ CF and AC

 

Edit: added total points

Hello.

 

I just want to inform you before your battle of something I used as a Tau player vs Chaos Space Marines with transports.

Sorry for the very bad picture, and it is not to scale. Furthermore... there is no terrain, and the deployment is irrelevant. The only thing I will bring up is the way to block the Land raider.

The armies are 1500 pts each (my Tau is less than 1500 atm, to fit your 1500)

 

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/VashDime/40k/map.png

 

 

Now, as you approach and keep your 15.5" away from the crisis team (cudos to you!) you are safe from the fusion blasters.

But, The riptides now form a "wall". Their bases are roughly 5" long. Their wall is together 5+5 + 3.5 = 13.5" wall

 

Now the 3.5" is the gap between the riptides. This gap prevents the Landraider to go through, and prevents terminator bases to go through (BRB no enemy model within 1" at any time unless charging).

From the picture, you now need to move around the "wall" to reach the crisis suits. Or you could assault a riptide.

Your land raider crusader doesnt do enough damage to actually kill one Riptide. And the terminator support neither.

 

Now, the Tau can counter your Land raiders moves at anytime. Remember that Tau have JSJ, so they can move 6" + 2D6 to follow your Landraider sideways, forward and backward. As you move into your 15.5", the riptides gathers to make the wall at the same time as the Tau moves forward. There is now, say 13" between the LRC and the Crisis, but as I said, to reach them you need to go around the wall.

The riptides can shoot as well and boost them self to fire twice with their TL fusion blasters, or they could if out of range, boost their main weapon to S9 AP2 Ordnace large blast. Of course, all weapons can fire in either boosted mode.

 

Now, of course, you will try to kill a riptide, but remember that in my army list example, there are pathfinders x2, and markerdrone unit supported by a commander, granting them BS5. Your terminators wont have any cover, and the riptides will blow them to pieces (72" large blast plasma stats).

 

Deep strike with Belial Please do... The riptides have interceptor rule (again 72" they are tall and pretty much see anything that will land anywhere close to important units I want to keep alive).

 

I hope you understand the picture. I am just trying to help and prepare you for what your Tau opponent might do to counter your LRC rush.

What you need is anti Riptide weapons to take them down so the wall can't be constructed, thus you can break through. But know this, this army list I have here will push forward against a list like yours. It comes down to terrain, good movements etc.

 

If this list has turn 1, it will target your terminators that starts on the table (or try to), also the army moves forward. Turn 2, if your land raider is at the magical 15.5 range, the above tactic starts. If not, keep on targeting terminators on foot.

 

If you go first, I guess you wont be able to reach 15.5" in turn 1, so the same thing here, turn 1 for my tau will be directed towards the foot slogging terminators.

 

 

Now, I don't play Deathwing nor do I use Landraiders. But I am not saying my list is perfectly safe from yours. Use what I have told you and build an anti tactic to what I just showed you here.

I hope it have helped.

[march10k]

On to the landraider.

While we are focusing on one Crisis unit with FB, this is true that it wont be enough to secure a dead landraider.

But I won't agree on that a "smart" tau player won't go into "charge range" to take out the LR. Thing is, in a vacuum the crisis won't, but... the crisis are supported by other units. So, if we "sacrifice" our crisis to blow up the LR, the supporting units will help to take out the cargo inside. 10 Terminators is tough indeed, but it needs to be dealt with no matter what the Tau player does. Running away isn't the answer, as the board will run out of places to hide. I agree with the sentiment, but it's easier said than done. Against a wily DA player, it takes TWO turns to get into 2D6 penetration range of a land raider, unless you have bikes or are deepstriking.

As L30n says, with Shadowsun the unit will probably have 3D6 JSJ move. Making the fusion blasters effective at 15" away and able to retreat probably further than their starting position.

So in an optimum setting for Tau with Shadowsun, 15" away from the LR, shooting with (in my case 4-5 FB's with re-roll, in supported cases 6 FBs or more) X number of FB's, then retreat around 10" back. Thats a 25" coverage the LR and it's cargo needs to catch if they don't get blown up. 6" move from LR and 6" deployment = 12", + 12" maximum charge range... it isn't enough. I agree that a shadowsun unit can shoot and then get out of charge range. That's never been the problem. The problem is getting across the deadly zone between 15" range and 19" range (19" being the average charge range of a mounted squad) to take that shot in the first place.

But what stops the Tau from Deep striking? Nothing stops them. But, except in the case of a farsight bomb, it's insanely risky. You have to set your drop point where every FB model is inside 9" of the target, then pray to the dice gods for good scatter. Scatter away, and the termies eat you without you getting to shoot the tank first. Scatter onto the tank, and suffer a mishap. Get it perfect and you might be able to jump far enough in the assault phase to avoid being caught by the termies and punished for killing the tank...and that's if you kill the tank. If you don't, the extra 6" of charge range that the tank gives the termies is going to kill you outright. Your only real hope is to DS multiple units of suits, including farsight. Drop him where his entire unit is in range of the tank, then hope that the other units get good scatter. If they kill the tank, farsight can certainly kill the termies. If you need farsight's unit to kill the tank...the other units might not have enough firepower to handle the termies. Without farsight...the chances of successfully DSing in and killing the tank are low enough...surviving the attempt, successful or not, is an unreasonable expectation.

We must also consider the fact of terrain. This means Line of Sight!

We can't charge what we can't see, and Tau will use this to their advantage with their JSJ rule. That's 4th edition talk. TLOS means that you can see to assault 99.9% of the time.

I will agree that the PFG LR is a great tool when reading it here.

But I must ask what that kind of army consists of at 1750 pts.

a LR isnt cheap and neither are the Deathing knights. And if you have two of those units, it sounds like it all eggs in one basket (two in this case). 1850...it is a very compact list. Belial, two mounted units of termies, and two DWA units of termies...and two crusaders. At 1750...I guess it'd have to drop the invulnerable save on the tanks.

I am still curious what to do with my Ravenwing though. My general idea was based around outflanking. And if my predictions are right, there will be little room for that.

The Pathfinders will and have to be my Ravenwings priority target for my bikes to stay alive. Range for Ravenwing is no issue. So what ever can reach the ravenwing, with marker lights (hmm pathfinders not drones), the ravenwing can reach too.

My take on Ravenwing, is that they need to play really aggressively and dare to lose more than usual. Outshooting the Tau wont really happen with Ravenwing. Yeah...I'm no expert on RW, I've only ever used them as support for another army, they've never been deployed on their own, so... I would guess that RW would be less shooty, but more maneuverable, than tau. As you suggest, the key would be to silence the cover-stripping markerlights on turn one. After that, it's a matter of shooting the fighty units and charging the shooty units. They can't shoot you if you're in melee, and they certainly can't fight their way out of a paper bag....so I'd blow up the markerlights (ravenwing should be fast enough that hiding the markerlights is impossible), then pile in, chop chop. Tau might be the one enemy that RW were meant to assault.

[march10k]

 

Going to try out a version of your list tomorrow night March.

 

1500 points

 

Belial

Techmarine w PFG

5 DWK in LRC

2x 5 DWT w/ CF and HF

5 DWT w/ CF and AC

 

Edit: added total points

Hello.

 

I just want to inform you before your battle of something I used as a Tau player vs Chaos Space Marines with transports.

Sorry for the very bad picture, and it is not to scale. Furthermore... there is no terrain, and the deployment is irrelevant. The only thing I will bring up is the way to block the Land raider.

The armies are 1500 pts each (my Tau is less than 1500 atm, to fit your 1500)

 

 

 

 

 

Now, as you approach and keep your 15.5" away from the crisis team (cudos to you!) you are safe from the fusion blasters.

But, The riptides now form a "wall". Their bases are roughly 5" long. Their wall is together 5+5 + 3.5 = 13.5" wall

 

Now the 3.5" is the gap between the riptides. This gap prevents the Landraider to go through, and prevents terminator bases to go through (BRB no enemy model within 1" at any time unless charging).

From the picture, you now need to move around the "wall" to reach the crisis suits. Or you could assault a riptide.

Your land raider crusader doesnt do enough damage to actually kill one Riptide. And the terminator support neither.

 

Now, the Tau can counter your Land raiders moves at anytime. Remember that Tau have JSJ, so they can move 6" + 2D6 to follow your Landraider sideways, forward and backward. As you move into your 15.5", the riptides gathers to make the wall at the same time as the Tau moves forward. There is now, say 13" between the LRC and the Crisis, but as I said, to reach them you need to go around the wall.

The riptides can shoot as well and boost them self to fire twice with their TL fusion blasters, or they could if out of range, boost their main weapon to S9 AP2 Ordnace large blast. Of course, all weapons can fire in either boosted mode.

 

Now, of course, you will try to kill a riptide, but remember that in my army list example, there are pathfinders x2, and markerdrone unit supported by a commander, granting them BS5. Your terminators wont have any cover, and the riptides will blow them to pieces (72" large blast plasma stats).

 

Deep strike with Belial Please do... The riptides have interceptor rule (again 72" they are tall and pretty much see anything that will land anywhere close to important units I want to keep alive).

 

I hope you understand the picture. I am just trying to help and prepare you for what your Tau opponent might do to counter your LRC rush.

What you need is anti Riptide weapons to take them down so the wall can't be constructed, thus you can break through. But know this, this army list I have here will push forward against a list like yours. It comes down to terrain, good movements etc.

 

If this list has turn 1, it will target your terminators that starts on the table (or try to), also the army moves forward. Turn 2, if your land raider is at the magical 15.5 range, the above tactic starts. If not, keep on targeting terminators on foot.

 

If you go first, I guess you wont be able to reach 15.5" in turn 1, so the same thing here, turn 1 for my tau will be directed towards the foot slogging terminators.

 

 

Now, I don't play Deathwing nor do I use Landraiders. But I am not saying my list is perfectly safe from yours. Use what I have told you and build an anti tactic to what I just showed you here.

I hope it have helped.

 

 

That is unexpected...and the first time I saw it on the tabletop, it might catch me napping.  But you don't quite understand my list, and you vastly overestimate the survivability of the riptides.  Until the bottom of turn two (my list ALWAYS goes second, if it can), I don't have any footslogging terminators.  All you see is two PFGed crusaders.   When my 2x5 DWAing tactical terminators do arrive on turn 2, you will have won a small victory in that I'll be forced to drop them behind the crusaders where you'll lack the LOS to pieplate them with the riptides.  Then the crusaders will shoot at the pathfinders while Belial's unit charges one riptide and the knights charge the other one.  Knights with smite activated will obliterate a riptide, and so will thunderhammers.  In return, you get one turn of shooting at stormshields before the assault termies mount back up and the crusaders head to the two flanks  with the shooty termies on the "safe" side, adding their fire to the crusaders as they kill the pathfinders first, then hit the fire warriors from both flanks.  Two hurribolters, a twinlinked assault cannon, four stormbolters, and an assault cannon will easily wreck a unit per turn....the termie threat inside the crusaders will keep the suits outside of 2D6 pen range, and the crusaders' hulls will stay between the suits and the footslogging termies, ensuring that LOS only exists between selected tau infantry units (preferably one at a time) and the walking termies.  That's in a KP game, of course...in an OBJ game, the two dismounted termie squads sieze OBJs after the riptides are down, while the crusaders just herd the suits away while shooting at the inf without the added fire from the termies.

 

There are armies that can make a shambles of my list (6x30 ork boyz...gives me nightmares!  And meltabikes and drop-podding melta can hurt me), but the only thing that scares me in the tau book is eight nonscattering deepstriking helios suits.  Especially if you manage to blow up a crusader with a hammerhead first...or they arrive after turn two, when I have dismounted termies for them to eat.

[Vash]

 

 

Going to try out a version of your list tomorrow night March.

 

1500 points

 

Belial

Techmarine w PFG

5 DWK in LRC

2x 5 DWT w/ CF and HF

5 DWT w/ CF and AC

 

Edit: added total points

Hello.

 

I just want to inform you before your battle of something I used as a Tau player vs Chaos Space Marines with transports.

Sorry for the very bad picture, and it is not to scale. Furthermore... there is no terrain, and the deployment is irrelevant. The only thing I will bring up is the way to block the Land raider.

The armies are 1500 pts each (my Tau is less than 1500 atm, to fit your 1500)

 

 

 

 

 

Now, as you approach and keep your 15.5" away from the crisis team (cudos to you!) you are safe from the fusion blasters.

But, The riptides now form a "wall". Their bases are roughly 5" long. Their wall is together 5+5 + 3.5 = 13.5" wall

 

Now the 3.5" is the gap between the riptides. This gap prevents the Landraider to go through, and prevents terminator bases to go through (BRB no enemy model within 1" at any time unless charging).

From the picture, you now need to move around the "wall" to reach the crisis suits. Or you could assault a riptide.

Your land raider crusader doesnt do enough damage to actually kill one Riptide. And the terminator support neither.

 

Now, the Tau can counter your Land raiders moves at anytime. Remember that Tau have JSJ, so they can move 6" + 2D6 to follow your Landraider sideways, forward and backward. As you move into your 15.5", the riptides gathers to make the wall at the same time as the Tau moves forward. There is now, say 13" between the LRC and the Crisis, but as I said, to reach them you need to go around the wall.

The riptides can shoot as well and boost them self to fire twice with their TL fusion blasters, or they could if out of range, boost their main weapon to S9 AP2 Ordnace large blast. Of course, all weapons can fire in either boosted mode.

 

Now, of course, you will try to kill a riptide, but remember that in my army list example, there are pathfinders x2, and markerdrone unit supported by a commander, granting them BS5. Your terminators wont have any cover, and the riptides will blow them to pieces (72" large blast plasma stats).

 

Deep strike with Belial Please do... The riptides have interceptor rule (again 72" they are tall and pretty much see anything that will land anywhere close to important units I want to keep alive).

 

I hope you understand the picture. I am just trying to help and prepare you for what your Tau opponent might do to counter your LRC rush.

What you need is anti Riptide weapons to take them down so the wall can't be constructed, thus you can break through. But know this, this army list I have here will push forward against a list like yours. It comes down to terrain, good movements etc.

 

If this list has turn 1, it will target your terminators that starts on the table (or try to), also the army moves forward. Turn 2, if your land raider is at the magical 15.5 range, the above tactic starts. If not, keep on targeting terminators on foot.

 

If you go first, I guess you wont be able to reach 15.5" in turn 1, so the same thing here, turn 1 for my tau will be directed towards the foot slogging terminators.

 

 

Now, I don't play Deathwing nor do I use Landraiders. But I am not saying my list is perfectly safe from yours. Use what I have told you and build an anti tactic to what I just showed you here.

I hope it have helped.

 

 

That is unexpected...and the first time I saw it on the tabletop, it might catch me napping.  But you don't quite understand my list, and you vastly overestimate the survivability of the riptides.  Until the bottom of turn two (my list ALWAYS goes second, if it can), I don't have any footslogging terminators.  All you see is two PFGed crusaders.   When my 2x5 DWAing tactical terminators do arrive on turn 2, you will have won a small victory in that I'll be forced to drop them behind the crusaders where you'll lack the LOS to pieplate them with the riptides.  Then the crusaders will shoot at the pathfinders while Belial's unit charges one riptide and the knights charge the other one.  Knights with smite activated will obliterate a riptide, and so will thunderhammers.  In return, you get one turn of shooting at stormshields before the assault termies mount back up and the crusaders head to the two flanks  with the shooty termies on the "safe" side, adding their fire to the crusaders as they kill the pathfinders first, then hit the fire warriors from both flanks.  Two hurribolters, a twinlinked assault cannon, four stormbolters, and an assault cannon will easily wreck a unit per turn....the termie threat inside the crusaders will keep the suits outside of 2D6 pen range, and the crusaders' hulls will stay between the suits and the footslogging termies, ensuring that LOS only exists between selected tau infantry units (preferably one at a time) and the walking termies.  That's in a KP game, of course...in an OBJ game, the two dismounted termie squads sieze OBJs after the riptides are down, while the crusaders just herd the suits away while shooting at the inf without the added fire from the termies.

 

There are armies that can make a shambles of my list (6x30 ork boyz...gives me nightmares!  And meltabikes and drop-podding melta can hurt me), but the only thing that scares me in the tau book is eight nonscattering deepstriking helios suits.  Especially if you manage to blow up a crusader with a hammerhead first...or they arrive after turn two, when I have dismounted termies for them to eat.

Sounds good mate. 

I am not dissregarding your list at all. 

 

We can sit and counter each other as much as we want here. My explanation is not enough for you, and your isnt enough for me, as many other factors play a big part. Of course I understand there is much more to your list than meets the eye, and there is much more to the Tau too. 

 

I can bring up a number of things to counter what you just wrote, but it will be countered by another reply, and I will counter yet again with another. 

We forget that each player has a turn, and we can expect that everything goes our way all the time. 

 

I have a few questions though, not that I am doubting your ability to command. 

 

Deep striking behind LRC. Will you break the LoS from the Riptides? 

What I am woundering is the hight of the Riptides, if it is enough to see your blog deeping in. a 5 man DW unit has a large footprint. 

 

Second qustion in conjunction to this. As you arrive, behind a LRC, you wont be able to see anything your self. What will you shoot at?

 

Third question. If you don't shoot at anything. What stops the Riptides from shooting at your LRCs, say at the edge of the back of them to also hit the DWTs grabbing cover behind (breaking LoS)?

 

Not sure what your doing here. Belial charges in what turn? Is he inside a LRC?

 

A 5 man unit of DWKs have 16 attacks on the charge. Will score 10.7 hits, and do 5.33 wounds. The Riptide, can if he wants, activate his 3++ save the run before. 

But I don't know if the Tau wants you to be locked in combat in their shooting phase ;)

 

A usual unit I have seen is marker drones with attached Commander when needed. These are BS5 makers with JSJ. How do you intend to kick that off?

 

 

Also, I have show a small and crude picture of how the Tau could counter your 15.5" tactic. 

Going second gives more time for the tau to get into position. 

Again, here is another example of math hammering and the writer gets everything in his advantage. Fighting in a vacuum. 

 

What I am trying to do at this moment is trying to break your confident nature a bit, and perhaps open your eyes to what could happen. 

I am a player who have faced your setting of tactics before (the general outline you have given, and again... there is much more to yours I Know). And the list/tactic has beaten me, I have learned a thing or two, and I have won against against the list/tactic. 

As I said, Terrain has a huge impact, who goes first or second. 

 

I will try not to aggravate you anymore :) But I don't want to leave any stone unturned. Just trying to give some advice, not trying to say that you "suck". Take it or leave it. If your winning against Tau 100% of the time, I am happy for you. I know that I am not one of those guys who win 100% of the times, so I for one am open for suggestions and people who have a tactic that might stop my plans. 

You don't see what I am trying to explain, so be it. All I can say I have beaten it, it wasn't easy, as it involved alot of measuring from both sides. Close dice rolls and good planing of target priority. 

[Aegnor]

If only there some kind of way to test these competing theories against each other... like on some kind of tabletop "game" or similar. ;)

[Vash]

If only there some kind of way to test these competing theories against each other... like on some kind of tabletop "game" or similar.

Made me laugh :D

But so very true.

And I have tried this out against a similar player. Got beaten and have beaten him. It falls down to me vs march10k. But if I am guessing this correctly. He has already met someone with a similar tactic and never lost :)

[march10k]

We can sit and counter each other as much as we want here. My explanation is not enough for you, and your isnt enough for me, as many other factors play a big part. Of course I understand there is much more to your list than meets the eye, and there is much more to the Tau too.

Since I play both DA and Tau...I have to agree :D

I can bring up a number of things to counter what you just wrote, but it will be countered by another reply, and I will counter yet again with another.

We forget that each player has a turn, and we can expect that everything goes our way all the time.

We have a saying in the army "no plan survives contact with the enemy." In terms of tabletop gaming, the dice AND the enemy get a vote. I'm not suggesting that there's no counter to the first plan off the top of my head when faced with the list and deployment you described, I'm merely describing my likely response.

Deep striking behind LRC. Will you break the LoS from the Riptides?

What I am woundering is the hight of the Riptides, if it is enough to see your blog deeping in. a 5 man DW unit has a large footprint.

An excellent question, and a worrisome one. Land raiders are pretty tall, themselves, and they don't have a base, so the termies can crowd in close, with their own bases underneath the tank, in fact. On top of that, I'm a filthy shyster: when I decide to use that tactic, I'll ensure that (I have 37 termies, a mix of metal and plastic) the two in the back row are metal, in order to shave half an inch off of their height...ultimately, it will come down to how tall the riptide is (I haven't seen one in person), and how close the crusader is to the riptide at the start of the turn...the farther, the better for me, of course, and I will have decided on this deployment as soon as I saw yours, so...I'm probaby in good shape, since I can actually reach the riptides with the charging termies from pretty far away. It is something to worry about, for sure!

Second qustion in conjunction to this. As you arrive, behind a LRC, you wont be able to see anything your self. What will you shoot at?

Absolutely nothing. In order to be able to see anything, I'd have to let the riptides shoot at me...before my own shooting phase. That's suicide! So I'll forego a round of shooting (twinlinked shooting, more's the pity-I told you it was a small victory for the tau to force this on me!) in the interest of staying alive.

Third question. If you don't shoot at anything. What stops the Riptides from shooting at your LRCs, say at the edge of the back of them to also hit the DWTs grabbing cover behind (breaking LoS)?

Ah, you're not thinking. At the moment that the deepstrike happens, you only get to shoot on my turn if you have LOS to the deepstriking target. Assuming that you don't, no intercept shooting. Assuming that you do, you don't need to aim at the tank (although, for scatter reasons, the trailing edge of the tank is still the proper point of aim!). And by the time you're allowed to shoot on your own turn, the riptides are either dead or locked in combat with my assault units.

Not sure what your doing here. Belial charges in what turn? Is he inside a LRC?

Yes, he's in a LRC with an assault terminator squad. His ability to deepstrike scatter-free is nice, but other terminator squads deepstriking at the same time would not be able to use his teleport homer...on the other hand, if he's inside a land raider, then deepstriking termies can land scatter-free anywhere within 6" of the tank...that's a pretty big bubble!

Anyway, all the magic happens on turn two. On turn one, the land raiders drive hell-bent-for-leather straight at the target (although, in this case, they'll want to stay a bit back from the riptides to keep the angle of the battlesuits' LOS shallow, because of the impending DWA in the lee of the tanks). On turn two, DWA, move, shoot, charge! Normally, this means four hurribolters, four twinlinked assault cannons, and eight twinlinked stormbolters shooting, followed by belial's squad and the knight squad charging. The impact of the riptides is actually huge in blunting that turn-two-hammer-blow. The two shooty squads have to hide instead of shooting, and the tanks can't move, shortening the charge range of the assault element by 6". [of course, I just thought of something...the PFG that's protecting the tanks would give the deepstriking termies 4+ invuls, too, provided that they're within 3" of the PFG-tank...not that their shooting is important enough in this scenario to expose them...but if by chance the riptides can see them over the top of the tanks, one squad, and probably a model from the other squad, would have a 4++, not a 5++...a nice little bonus!]

A 5 man unit of DWKs have 16 attacks on the charge. Will score 10.7 hits, and do 5.33 wounds. The Riptide, can if he wants, activate his 3++ save the run before.

But I don't know if the Tau wants you to be locked in combat in their shooting phase

Yep, I'm only 100% certain of killing the riptide because I assume that I have two phases to do so...and, no, you don't want to activate the 3++...you definitely want to shoot my termies!!! It's better for you if I kill them in one turn...you might be able to kill one of the assault units if you throw everything you have at it before they can remount in my turn. I'm assuming that you go for the non-knight squad...it's scoring, T4, and has fewer storm shields...not to mention the slay the warlord VP, since it has belial in it.

A usual unit I have seen is marker drones with attached Commander when needed. These are BS5 makers with JSJ. How do you intend to kick that off?

I don't. On the turn that the assault squads are dismounted, they're going to be lit up like a Christmas tree. I can't help that. After that, the markerlights in question will not be able to see anything but land raiders, and are therefore no threat to me.

Going second gives more time for the tau to get into position.

Yep, it gives every opponent two turns to move and shoot before my plan unfolds. But it also allows me to see them deploy before I place my two models on the table. And it's mitigated by the fact that for those two turns, they have absolutely nothing to shoot at, except for two AV14 vehicles with a 4+ save (did I mention that it's a techmarine carrying the PFG? Oh, yeah...repairs for one tank!) and the ability to reroll on the damage table. That's downright deadly to any army that relies on shooting...two full turns of standing around sipping from their canteens for every unit that can't hurt a land raider!

I know that I am not one of those guys who win 100% of the times

Me, neither! I think in my entire life, my DA have beaten eldar (not the emo type...they're supposed to be harder, but I wipe the floor with them) maybe three times. They're my nemesis! And against most armies, I, like most DW players, have an easy time killing stuff, but a hard time controlling and contesting enough objectives to carry the day. Win percentage? Somewhere between 40 and 60. But with this list? 9-1-0, the loss coming against IG who had not a single vehicle....1850 points worth of meat puppets....the bastards had more bodies than I had bullets, and melta guns sticking out of every body cavity. It was a sad day for my four squads and two tanks!

He has already met someone with a similar tactic and never lost

Sort of...I have run into a nid list with a shell of MCs advancing in front of squishier scoring units. That one was harder, it had FOUR MCs for me to deal with, not two...but it was also easier, no AP2 pieplates for my termies to fear. I've also faced dreadknights with this list, athough they weren't trying to protect a gunline, really. No issues with them, either.

[Tiger9gamer]

so on a scale of 1-5, which builds have it worse? ravenwing, deathwing, mech greenwing, gunline greenwing, or a mixed wing?

[Vash]

Well to conclude we do agree on many points, but have gone passed each other :)

 

To the question about the Riptide shooting at the LRC. I am refering to the Tau player own turn and not the interceptor turn. Anyhow, after you deep strike, I now understand that you assault. 

Only problem, maybe not a big one, is supportive fire. 

 

I do like having discussions with people who disagree and have strong suggestions and facts to what they say. It opens up my eyes, and I learn more to handle different situations. 

 

 

@Tiger9gamer

It all depends on what you field in your "wing". Footslogging/deep striking Deathwing will have big issues. march10k deathwing wont have the same problem. 

I would probably say that a pure Ravenwing might have the biggest problems. Few in numbers, cover saves that usually saves them counts for nothing. Can't really outflank, large foot print. 

Their advantage is speed and mobility though. They can reach the Tau faster than any other wing. 

[march10k]

Ah, I see.  Yeah, my supporting fire is purely anti-troop, so it wouldn't be of that much use against the riptides...and until the riptides are dealt with, I'll just have to do without infantry-based shooting for fear of the riptides.  I also just realized something...I made a mistake earlier:

 

 

Assuming that you do, you don't need to aim at the tank (although, for scatter reasons, the trailing edge of the tank is still the proper point of aim!).

 

I was wrong there...you can't target the tank on my turn, it didn't come from reserves.  You have to target the deepstriking termies, specifically a model that you can actually see...which is no big deal unless you get big scatter in the wrong direction, but anyway, I was incorrect to suggest that you can designate the trailing edge of the tank as your target.

 

Anyway, yeah, the best answer to riptides is assaulting them with AP2 weapons.  Second best would be...massed lascannons, I guess?  The problem with the lascannons, I guess is that if you have a lot of them, they're probably all together in devastator squads...perfect target for the anti-termie pieplate!

 

I agree that RW faces an uphill battle.  Anything that removes cover is going to gut them.  Especially in combination with 30" S5 small arms.  Greenwing...mixed bag.  A lascannon devastator squad (with a PFG-toting prescience libby!) and a pair of whirlwinds would carve large chunks out of a tau army...but greenwing really has no satisfactory answer to riptides.  The standard of devastation doesn't help much when your boltguns are outranged and out-strengthed by pulse rifles (although carbines are going to get more popular now).  Footslogging DW is problematic...mechanized DW should do well. 

 

DWA....well...I can see a lot of utility in Belial's scatter-free deepstrike trick.  He can bring down ten friends 1" away from the tau gunline, so any pieplates chucked his way have a high chance of causing fratricide...and with eight thundernators and two heavy flamers...they'll be hard to bring down...the other deepstrikers would demand attention, too...pure termies, in 5-man squads (except for belial's) would make for target saturation pretty quickly.  Belial and co comes to about 700 points, leaving room for 20 more terminators in 4 packets with a mix of assault cannons, chainfists, storm shields, and cyclones...all 31 termies hitting the ground on the bottom of turn 2 means two full turns of literally nothing to shoot at followed by target saturation...it would be very bloody for both sides, but with 1/3 of the game's shooting eliminated on the tau side and the termies all arriving simultaneously without slogging across open ground under fire...I'd have to say that there aren't enough interceptor units to deal with that, and the threat of fratricide (actually, if belial's unit is placed well enough in a lucky enough scenario, it might be illegal to target them, because you couldn't do so without touching friendly models?  In any case, it should be easy to drop him where any deviation whatsoever by that nasty pieplate kills tau) hands that one to the DW.  Anything less than terminator-pure, bottom-of-2, DWA, though, and a DWA-based army dies.  I guess it's like most things in this game...a little bit of a good thing is a gift to the enemy, you have to spam it for it to work properly.  Just like one land raider is a juicy target, but a fleet of them is irresistible force.

 

Overall, I'd say that DW fare the best against tau, if they're built properly for the job...but greenwing heavy support choices have a lot going for them, too.  Those WW pieplates should remove 83% of the pathfinders that they touch, and 42% of fire warriors.  Since they'll be crowded/clustered into cover...that's a lot of pain from a 65 point model!

[Brother dean]

Tau are going to be tough...  When I finally broke cover with my ravenwing, 3 Broadsides took 4 of them...  I won but he was playing his first game and went conservative...  In the after talk he decided that 3 or 4 piranahs with burst cannons were cheap for the points....   bRRRR.....

[march10k]

Yeah, pirhanas are much better for the points than landspeeders...except maybe typhoons. 

[Raven Angel]

So what I'm taking away from this is that a competitive Tau list will have at the very least 2 riptides, 2 pathfinder squads, 2 firewarrior squads, and a crisis commander and bodyguard at its core and those are the units we must be prepared to kill at every fight?

[Vash]

So what I'm taking away from this is that a competitive Tau list will have at the very least 2 riptides, 2 pathfinder squads, 2 firewarrior squads, and a crisis commander and bodyguard at its core and those are the units we must be prepared to kill at every fight?

No...

There are many builds in the Tau army now. Just like we have Ravenwing, Deathwing, Green wing. And we can mix them all. 

 

The suggested one you mentioned is one that I use, based on Riptides (and crisis not bodyguards). Meaning specilisied units.

 

Another path for Tau to take is Fire warrior path. Mass Fire warriors supported by Etherals and Fireblades. 

 

Vehicle "heavy" is another one.

 

But what you can expect is:

 

- Pathfinders

- Fire warriors

 

 

And thats it. 

[Brother dean]

My Wolfbrother is exceptionally excited about all the different builds.  The fact that I pointed out another last night has really got him going...

[notmattlythgoe]

So game went pretty well. LR survived the entire game against 3 Hammerheads shooting ta it, with most turns only 2 having LOS to it. Made some stupid mistakes that ended up costing us the game, like not charging Longstrike after disembarking my Knights, I asked what AV he was and I was told 13 so I thought "Oh, I can't do anything with my maces", yes you can idiot, he's only AV10 in the rear and you have Smite! A couple of notes, A) the pie plates Tau have now are brutal, the Riptide took out an entire squad of Necron Warriors in one shot and Longstrike took out 90% of another squad. B) Vengeful Strike is wicked awesome, took out 50% of a Pathfinder unit, 50% of 2 Fire Warrior units, and 50% of a 20 man cultist blob with my 3 DS Termie squads. Lost the game 8-6, but I was pleased with how my list worked out.

[Vash]

So game went pretty well. LR survived the entire game against 3 Hammerheads shooting ta it, with most turns only 2 having LOS to it. Made some stupid mistakes that ended up costing us the game, like not charging Longstrike after disembarking my Knights, I asked what AV he was and I was told 13 so I thought "Oh, I can't do anything with my maces", yes you can idiot, he's only AV10 in the rear and you have Smite! A couple of notes, A) the pie plates Tau have now are brutal, the Riptide took out an entire squad of Necron Warriors in one shot and Longstrike took out 90% of another squad. Vengeful Strike is wicked awesome, took out 50% of a Pathfinder unit, 50% of 2 Fire Warrior units, and 50% of a 20 man cultist blob with my 3 DS Termie squads. Lost the game 8-6, but I was pleased with how my list worked out.

Good to hear... that your pleased with the result considering the slight loss. Best games imo are those that are even and where you learn something new.

Tau have really great weapons nowadays. They can blast away entire units with some well placed blasts.

I have a question. Did the Riptide have a Ion Accelerator (the large blast weapon), and did he nova charge it and shoot at your Landraiders or any other vehicles?

S9 Ordnance large blast can really hurt. Combined with a Commander who has puretide engram and he will grant Tank/monster hunter ability.

I have forgotten to add that to the "counter" of the Land raider rush. Supporting commander that grants tank hunter, and nova charged Ion Accelerator.

[notmattlythgoe]

It had the large blast, but he was happier pie plating termies and warriors with it. He Nova Charged once took out 5 termies in one shot with it after they deep struck turn 2 and melted a bunch of cultists with the flamer and cleared a bunch of fire warriors out of some ruins.

[notmattlythgoe]

It was definitely a fun list, as long as they don't blow up your LR before it gets to move it has at least served its purpose to get Belial and his teleport beacon 12" further up the board. If it survives further than that then you get to rush knights out of it and laugh as they eat things. I'd also like to try a 1750 list by just adding 2 vindis into this list. and at 2k the vindis and another termie squad in reserves with an AC and CF.

[AngelVeto]

Going to be playing a game agains tau tonight. I'll fill you guys in On how it goes