Question on Warding Stave clarification

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I don't know what people have against the Daemon Codex

 

Not gonna derail this thread. ;)  My thoughts are in the 7 page long one.

[Aethernitas]

I don't know what people have against the Daemon Codex

Not gonna derail this thread. My thoughts are in the 7 page long one.

dito.

Two things I don't understand:

How can one abandon his race just because they perform below-average cuz of their codex age? I personally enjoy playing as the underdog. That way my wins feel more satisfying

How can the local meta drift of to the far off point where only shooty army-builds are played? Imo that like an invite for dedicated assault armies to take the field...

back to topic: I buy the warding stuff for pretty much every dedicated assault unit that I'm reasonably sure I will get a charge of with. The main examples would be most units embarked in a LR or a Stormraven. That way I can assure that the warding stuff is in base contact and I can properly use it.

[Gentlemanloser]

How can one abandon his race just because they perform below-average

cuz of their codex age? I personally enjoy playing as the underdog. That

way my wins feel more satisfying

Easily answered by any old GK player that played DH. After years of being the underdog and being routinely, and easily, beaten by newer and newer codexes, 40k loses it's shine.

You might enjoy being the underdog, you might enjoy the hard mode of an uphill battle.

But to suffer so, every game, for years, and lose almost all those games.

Well, that becomes soul destroying, and the game you're playing loses all it's fun.

How can the local meta drift of to the far off point where only

shooty army-builds are played? Imo that like an invite for dedicated

assault armies to take the field...

Like?

Dedicated Assault Deldar were gutted by 6th. Necrons and IG don't have any. Marines are all Marines, and all Marines excel at shooting over CC (yes, a slimplification. I'm sure loads of folk are having great successes with thier TWC armies).

Chaos is propped up by the Heldrakes. I won't mention Daemons. Tau are a shooting army.

What does this leave us? Orks? Eldar? I'm not sure either count as Dedicated Assault.

[Aethernitas]

 

Easily answered by any old GK player that played DH.  After years of being the underdog and being routinely, and easily, beaten by newer and newer codexes, 40k loses it's shine.

 

You might enjoy being the underdog, you might enjoy the hard mode of an uphill battle.

 

But to suffer so, every game, for years, and lose almost all those games.

 

Well, that becomes soul destroying, and the game you're playing loses all it's fun.

 

If you played DH in a group of gamers with a strictly competitive way of playing then I can totally understand you. For me it was a little different as many in my area enjoyed playing scenarios and most of them wrote their army lists considering both fluff and competitiveness. That made it possible to score a win now and then which was enough to keep me hooked.

 

 

Like?

 

Dedicated Assault Deldar were gutted by 6th.  Necrons and IG don't have any.  Marines are all Marines, and all Marines excel at shooting over CC (yes, a slimplification.  I'm sure loads of folk are having great successes with thier TWC armies).

 

Chaos is propped up by the Heldrakes.  I won't mention Daemons.  Tau are a shooting army.

 

What does this leave us?  Orks?  Eldar?  I'm not sure either count as Dedicated Assault.

 

 

In my book the two codizes that can (but don't have to) field the most dedicated assault armies are Nids and Daemons as in 'they can't really do anything else besides rushing towards you, charge you and rip you to shreds'. Nids have great potential for dedicated horde or spore assault armys. Daemons are definitely an dedicated and very specialized assault army as we shall see. All SM, BA, DA and SW as well as GKs can field very nasty assault armies. I don't really know the details of an Ork army even though I think at least Ork hordes should work as well as mechanized lists and Eldar I haven't really seen played as an assault army yet. Necrons, Tau, IG and DE have some dedicated assault units but imo none of them is able to field a whole army focussed on melee mayhem. At least not in a competitive way.

[dswanick]

Man, oh man. If you guys are ever in the Syracuse, NY area - I'll hook you up with some games against our locals "friendly" nid lists. Top that with a C:CD player, and you'll be wondering where you "6th Ed is the shooty Ed" went. :)

[IndigoJack]

Man, oh man. If you guys are ever in the Syracuse, NY area - I'll hook you up with some games against our locals "friendly" nid lists. Top that with a C:CD player, and you'll be wondering where you "6th Ed is the shooty Ed" went.

I would love such a challenge. My friend's that play nids don't play competitively, so I haven't really had a chance to flex my competitive muscle against them for some time. As far as daemons go, I haven't had a chance to get to the shop often enough to get a real feel for them.

[Captain Idaho]

*shrugs* people often think of the easy choices as the competitive ones. taking units that just sit there and shoot requires the least amount of decision making and therefore less mistakes to potentially make equals easier to use.

 

Launching assaults requires timing, manoeuvring and support, target saturation, redundancy, the necessity of a plan B as well as target selection shooting needs to consider. Ergo there are more points of failure.

 

I use a bit of assault in my lists to provide me options and on the whole I've benefited from 6th edition because my delivery system is more robust (no more glances immobilising the Land Raider!) and my 2+ save assault force is less vulnerable to power weapons).

[number6]

The truth is, the 6e rules favor shooting over assault. Let's rewind the clock a bit and cover just the highlights....


3e: RHINO RUSH! Need I say any more? Assault was really powerful. Zooming as many transports into your enemy's face was the order of the day.


4e: The end of Rhino Rush, but you could still consolidate directly into another combat. Most games I played throughout 4e were determined by who managed to arrange their assaults such that their assault units kept wiping out the enemy on the enemy's turn so that the assault unit could just keep piling into unit after unit without being exposed to enemy fire.


5e: Some pretty big nerfs to assault. Primarily, no more consolidating into further assaults. Combined with the way transport vehicle points costs were reduced by an average of ~40% over 4e and earlier era codexes, mech MSU absolutely dominated. If your opponent had an assaulty unit, just let that uber-unit destroy something piddly cheap of your own and then, after they wiped your bait unit out, soak it with firepower until dead. Rinse, lather, repeat. Is it an entire army based around assault? No problem. Circle the wagons and control what parts of your force are at risk. In a game of attrition, MSU has a massive upper hand. (It was during 5e that I had my greatest successes with my Tau army, an army that is extremely vulnerable to assault and all but ignores the assault phase itself.)

Furthermore, target priority checks disappear. Now you can shoot at any enemy unit you can see. Speaking of which...

True Line of Sight enters the game. It is significantly easier to target any enemy unit you want. It's not like that forest is preventing you from seeing whoever or whatever is inside it or on the opposite side of it from you, like it would have in 4e.


6e: It's not "the end of assault", but really, the nerfs to assault just keep coming.

* Random charge distance means you can no longer reliably get stuck in. It's a risk each and every time. Your odds of rolling a 3 or 4 aren't great, but they are great enough that it'll happen with regularity. (Already I've played 3 games where my opponent failed to get even a 3 on their charge distance, effectively ending that player's tactical options right then and there -- because they depended upon assaults as a major part of their path to victory. Instead, because of random charge distance, it was victory to me.)

* You can no longer disembark from a vehicle and assault in the same turn.

* You can no longer arrive from reserves -- e.g., from outflanking -- and assault in the same turn.

* The player with the 1st turn is outright prohibited from initiating an assault on turn 1.

* Overwatch.

* Fearless units no longer take automatic wounds for losing an assault.


Compare to what happened to the shooting phase...


* Cover saves got worse.

* Vehicle glances now actually do something.

* Overwatch.


You can't look at the two ways of inflicting pain on your opponent and think they are equivalent. The only rational conclusion is that assault is incredibly risky and unreliable, and even in the best of circumstances requires you to arrange them up to 2 full game turns in advance (in a 5-7 turn game!) and yet is still likely to leave your assault unit(s) stranded in the open at one time or another. Meanwhile, shooting is powerful, reliable, predictable, and can be turned to any point on the battlefield at any time.

Shooting wins games of 6e 40K. Just like it did in 5e. Assault is really more about scaring your opponent with a potentially nasty threat. If you manage to pull off a well-timed and well-placed assault, it can no doubt be absolutely devastating. But you simply can't count on that working out for you. There are too many game rules standing in your way. IMHO, building a strong assault element into your list is about engaging in psychological warfare with your opponent. You are showing them you mean business, and you're daring them to let you get away with it. Ideally, they will focus on your assault elements to the detriment of their overall survival, and to the betterment of your overall game plan.

[dswanick]

 

Shooting wins games of 6e 40K. Just like it did in 5e. .. If you manage to pull off a well-timed and well-placed assault, it can no doubt be absolutely devastating. But you simply can't count on that working out for you. 

Just like in real life warfare ... Maneuver, strategy, and firepower win wars but that one desperate CQB breaking in an unexpected direction can reverse the fortunes of the most advantaged of forces.

[Aethernitas]

Man, oh man. If you guys are ever in the Syracuse, NY area - I'll hook you up with some games against our locals "friendly" nid lists. Top that with a C:CD player, and you'll be wondering where you "6th Ed is the shooty Ed" went.

I've been planning another US of A tour since a while now but I guess I won't bring my miniatures :P

I love the discussion bout the relevance of assault in 6th edition but I guess we should open an extra thread for it and move the last few posts there?

[Captain Idaho]

Whilst I agree shooting is the dominant phase, ignoring assault just because the game has strong shooting will just make your army vulnerable to an army that can shoot just as well as you turning the game into rock-paper-scissors.

 

I've won most of my games because my Honour Guard gut the enemy infantry whilst my shooting picks apart the scary elements, but I will admit 6th hurts when you can't get into assault. Dang them!

[Gentlemanloser]

 

4e: The end of Rhino Rush, but you could still
consolidate directly into another combat. Most games I played throughout
4e were determined by who managed to arrange their assaults such that
their assault units kept wiping out the enemy on the enemy's turn so
that the assault unit could just keep piling into unit after unit
without being exposed to enemy fire.

 

4th edition Harliquins were the bane of my existence...

 

The Rending change should also probably be mentioned.  Changing Rending from to-hit to to-wound ws another massive nerf on low S units like Harlies.

[happybounce]

*shrugs* people often think of the easy choices as the competitive ones. taking units that just sit there and shoot requires the least amount of decision making and therefore less mistakes to potentially make equals easier to use.

 

Launching assaults requires timing, manoeuvring and support, target saturation, redundancy, the necessity of a plan B as well as target selection shooting needs to consider. Ergo there are more points of failure.

 

I use a bit of assault in my lists to provide me options and on the whole I've benefited from 6th edition because my delivery system is more robust (no more glances immobilising the Land Raider!) and my 2+ save assault force is less vulnerable to power weapons).

I completely and totally agree.  The only times I've seen popular assault army builds in the last few years were when they were spam lists based around rules loop holes, like 3 Stormraven Blood Angel lists dropping things off turn one or two.  

 

I like the Chaos codex and I like 6th, even though running my Khorne army is more challenging.  Honestly, the biggest issue for me in 6th isn't Rhino nerf or random charge range, it's rage/counterattack replacing +1 base attack for the Mark of Khorne.  I've ended up running lists that sputter out fast if they don't get the job done in a turn.  It's a big part of why I'm moving to Grey Knights after Adepticon; I want to start incorporating more shooting, and you can build a flexible GK list that will do well in assault.

 

The Warding Stave will be extra helpful because I'm tired of having my ass handed to me in close combat by four giant winged Daemons.  Pop that bad boy on a character, challenge the Daemon Prince, and bog him down till you get a wound through and force weapon him back to hell.  I'm going to run them master-crafted and with digi-weapons as well, so I don't have to rely on hammerhand as much to get the wound through.  

 

Oh, and if you have a whole unit of dudes fighting one big scary guy don't you get a re-roll for every 5 dudes?  So, re-rollable 2++ against winged MCs?  Seems solid to me!

[jeffersonian000]

Personally, the only lists I have trouble with are all CC lists such as an all CC 'Nidzilla list, because my GKT get bogged down in melee with neither side making much headway (I don't kill enough of them, and they don't really kill any of mine).  Unfortunately, that's the way game seems to be focused at the moment, with Assault being the last thing you want to do, but the one thing you want to do right when it does happen.

 

On Staves, the Libby in my Ghostwing carries a Warding Staff specifically to tank challengers that may actually get into CC with Mordrak and his Ghosts as Mordrak+Ghosts+Libby "FttF" turn 1, generally right into my opponents deployment zone (I'm kind of a dick like that).  Much shooting normally ensues, yet there is always that one assault unit that doesn't get stalled by Sanctuary, which invariably stalls out Mordrak and Company for the remainder of the game.  Part of the plan, though.  I even like calling out, "None Shall Pass!" after a bunch a saves, generally to dirty looks from my opponents.  : P

 

Recently, I've been toying with the idea of putting a Staff on the Justicar in my reserved 10-man GKT squad, to suck up wounds in CC if that unit gets stuck in as well (which always happens versus the 'Nids).  This thread has given me food for thought on the issue.

 

SJ

[number6]

The Warding Stave will be extra helpful because I'm tired of having my ass handed to me in close combat by four giant winged Daemons. Pop that bad boy on a character, challenge the Daemon Prince, and bog him down till you get a wound through and force weapon him back to hell. I'm going to run them master-crafted and with digi-weapons as well, so I don't have to rely on hammerhand as much to get the wound through.

Oh, and if you have a whole unit of dudes fighting one big scary guy don't you get a re-roll for every 5 dudes? So, re-rollable 2++ against winged MCs? Seems solid to me!

I think you need to take a look at the Brotherhood Champion...

[happybounce]

I think you need to take a look at the Brotherhood Champion...

I saw him! I like that if he goes down, he might take a huge MC with him out of sheer spite. I think I'd probably run him as a secondary HQ at some point, but right now I can't stop thinking about my 280-point Grand Master. Plus, no terminator armor : (

When I ran SM my all-time favorite HQ was Lysander, who would just hold forever against increasingly improbably odds. The image of a few lone heroes holding off an entire horde, or bringing down a massive Daemon, holding to the last man--that's what Marines are all about! I love that I have the option for a crazy expensive HQ who has awesome army-wide effects and can also get crazy protection.

[number6]

I think you need to take a look at the Brotherhood Champion...

I saw him! I like that if he goes down, he might take a huge MC with him out of sheer spite. I think I'd probably run him as a secondary HQ at some point, but right now I can't stop thinking about my 280-point Grand Master. Plus, no terminator armor : (

No terminator armour, eh? Why does he need it? He has a 2+/4++ standard, 3++ when in close combat. And with the defensive stance, that's 2+/3++ rerollable!

280 pt GM ... meh. You could easily shave 100 pts off that guy and take the Champion, too. Better bang for your buck, if you ask me.

[happybounce]

I think you need to take a look at the Brotherhood Champion...

I saw him! I like that if he goes down, he might take a huge MC with him out of sheer spite. I think I'd probably run him as a secondary HQ at some point, but right now I can't stop thinking about my 280-point Grand Master. Plus, no terminator armor : (

No terminator armour, eh? Why does he need it? He has a 2+/4++ standard, 3++ when in close combat. And with the defensive stance, that's 2+/3++ rerollable!

280 pt GM ... meh. You could easily shave 100 pts off that guy and take the Champion, too. Better bang for your buck, if you ask me.

The biggest issue for me is getting guys across the board, and I like the versatility of the Strike Squad and the Termies; being able to deepstrike either is a big plus for me. But seeing as I like walking terminators across the board a lot of the time I will give it a shot! The new Rhino rules really frustrate me, and I always have a hard time paying for Land Raiders. I got briefly excited when I mistakenly thought Fortitude fixed this but to no avail.

Also: you are not a number, you are a free man! I actually visited Portmeirion like ten years ago while on vacation and it was sweet as hell. Wales is a weird place.

[number6]

Also: you are not a number, you are a free man! I actually visited Portmeirion like ten years ago while on vacation and it was sweet as hell. Wales is a weird place.

You and I are going to be good friends, I can see.

[happybounce]

Also: you are not a number, you are a free man! I actually visited Portmeirion like ten years ago while on vacation and it was sweet as hell. Wales is a weird place.

You and I are going to be good friends, I can see.

A 40k player who loves "The Prisoner" and thinks that the game isn't limited to gunlines? Hell yes we will!