Massed Psybacks (?)

[L30n1d4s]

This definitely flies in the face of conventional wisdom for 6th edition, but I wonder if massed Psy-bolt Razorbacks are a viable strategy for GKs these days.

 

At only 50 points a pop, they give you mobility for your troops, mobile cover to protect your footsloggin forces, and of course the every useful BS4, Twin-Linked, S6 AP4, 36" range psy-heavy bolter. I think, if they are to be used, you have to commit to them all out and even build your army around them, which to me would mean Coteaz and Henchmen.

 

Since a 5 man Warrior Acolyte Squad with 3 Plasmas/Meltas only cost 50 points, that is 100 points for the squad and their Psyback IFV. Just for kicks, let's go 2000 point, double force org, and take 10 of these ;)

 

That's 1000 points + Coteaz = 1100, so 900 left to play with. Since Double Force Org, we need another HQ, so how about two Ordos Malleus with TDA, Psycannon, and PML (1) for +220 points --> 680 points to go. How about 10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 4 Halberds, 1 MCed Halberd, and a NDH for 300 each? That's +600, leaving us with 80 points... hey, perfect, just the cost of 9 Bolter Acolytes and 3 MM Servitors is 75, so almost exactly 2000 points.

 

Let's drop one more Acolyte/Psyback Squad and use that 100 points for an Aegis Line/Quad gun, to give us some anti-air and cover in the backfield.

 

This gives us:

 

HQ

-Coteaz

-OM Inquisitor with TDA, PC, PML(1)

-OM Inquisitor with TDA, PC, PML(1)

 

EL

-10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, NDH

-10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons, 5 Halberds, NDH

 

TR

-4 x 5 WA with 3 meltas/Psyback

-5 x 5 WA with 3 plasmas/Psyback

-1 x 9 Bolter Acolytes, 2 MM Servitors

 

Fortification

-ADL with Quadgun

 

Basically, Coteaz goes with the Bolter Acolyte/Servitor Squad and mans the Aegis line for homefield objectives and anti-air (Coteaz shoots the gun and casts Divination on his squad, as required).

 

The 2 Inquisitors attach to the 2 Purifier Squads and footslog to mid-field, unleashing between 12 and 20 Psycannon shots a turn with Prescience to make them more accurate (they squads are not too bad in CC as well, with Prescience for re-rolling hits, mutiple Halberds, and of course Cleansing Flame to deal with hordes).

 

Finally, the melta/plasma Acolytes stay in their Psybacks and maneuver appropriately, pumping out 27 Twin-linked S6 shots a turn at 36" range. Acolytes stay mounted until required ro jump out and use their Special Weapons and/or take objectives near the end of the game. AV11 goes down easily, but when you have 9 separate vehicles, then target priority can get a little dicey for the enemy. Also, at only 50 points each, if you lost a Psyback (or 5 of them, for that matter ! ;) ), your army still has plenty of mobility and punch.

 

Against flyers/flying MCs, you rely on the Quad-gun, plus lots of Twin-Linked S6 and/or Prescienced Psycannons to bring them down with shear quantity of hits. Against hordes, well this army is very well set up against them, both in shooting and CC (Purifiers for the win!). Against MEQs, massed firepower and plasmas can wittle them down, and against heavy vehicles, rending Psycannons and meltas are available to tear of hullpoints. Against TEQs, you have plasmas, meltas, and just torrents of firepower to force saves on those high cost, high value Terminators, Sanguinary Guard, Mega Nobz, etc.

 

I think the army this concept would struggle the most against is either a very fast list (i.e. Ravenwing) or a very cheap shooty army (i.e. IG footslogging gunline that hugs lots of cover).

 

In essence, using so many Psybacks could be called "mech horde", since it relies on the same principle as infantry horde armies (i.e cheap, mass numbers) to compensate for low individual unit survivability.

[IndigoJack]

I wouldn't really call it "mech horde," since mech spam is generally considered between 8-12 vehicles (any more and you run the risk of tripping over yourself). You do have quite a bit though!

 

 I'm not really a fan of dual FOC. I do love me some psybacks, so it definitely evens out ;). I'd watch out for units that deny cover, especially those noise marines and heldrake, since they'll be sure to tear through the purifiers first. To help deal with them, I'd recommend combat squading. Yes, you lose efficiency when it comes to prescience, but it provides target saturation. Add in the fact that purifiers are fearless, and you see why they do so well with MSU.

[number6]

Anybody who thinks MSU mech is dead is kidding themselves.

All that's really changed in the transition from 5th edition 40K to 6th edition 40K is that there are actually more competitively valid builds available than just MSU mech. Which is awesome and very welcome, of course.

So what you're intending to field is really a 5th edition list with a Quad Gun to help you out against flyers. Which is fine, but I do think you need a bit more flyer defense than that. People have been complaining a lot about how flyers are "ruining" the game and "changing the meta" ... but love 'em or hate 'em, they're here to stay and must be considered.

At 2000 pts, most armies NOT GKs can field several flyers if they so desire. And you can practically guarantee that armies like Necrons and Chaos Marines will be fielding 3+ at 2000 pts.

Mass razorbacks actually aren't too bad for fighting off flyers -- twin-linking is really the best flyer defense that GK armies have -- but I would want something more reliable than that. Either a OM Inquisitor in TDA with a psycannon and prescience (110 pts) in a squad of GKTs or Paladins with at least 1 psycannon. Or possibly a psifleman dreadnought. Just for that extra bit of capability when you do meet up with an opponent determined to own the skies and "abuse" flyers for all they're worth.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Yea I'm gonna agree with number6. A Necron list at 2000points can take 4 flyers without really trying, and many more if they are trying to abuse Flyer spam.

 

However, I also agree that MSU Mech is certainly not dead. I still play Mech IG and sometimes I'll play an underpowered Mech BA too. Both have had good results, but I've not run the Mech BA against a Spammed-Flyer Player.

 

All in all, the idea you've posted should do fairly well. But Drop Pod Armies or other builds that can blitz into your face by Turn 1 or 2 will give you a rough time.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I just think mech spam has too many bad matchups in 6th edition. Especially with Chaos, Necrons and now Tau wrecking your vehicle wall with massed glancing (nevermind the heavier guns they can bring which one-shot your AV11 chassis). Also, vehicles can never score, which is a huge problem in objective missions where our scoring capability s already quite low (we're usually an expensive low-model count army). 

 

I guess we can still field pretty cheap mech spam with Acolytes, but it isn't something I'd consider to be a strong build. Maybe backed up with other things (Knightwing etc), but not on its own. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I like our Razors.

 

I dislike dual FoC.

 

;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I like our Razors.

I dislike dual FoC.

?

Wouldn't you like it though? Moar Razors, moar mech, moar fun?

[Gentlemanloser]

50 points for two HQs.

 

6 DreadKnights!!!!!!!!!

 

Nope, I think the whole idea is fundamentally unbalanced.

 

Dual FoC allows you to load up more on the break the game stuff.  Who'd ever want to face 6 Helldrakes....

[Zeratul29]

Yeah, I definitely don't want to face 6 heldrakes :/

[Dr Zaius]

For Acolytes I prefer Chimeras, as they can fire inside the vehicle. Sure Multilasers are BS3 but you also have a Heavy Bolter or a Heavy Flamer.

 

And expect soon or later Psybolt Razorbacks will cost 15 points more... Psybolt Razorbacks with assault cannons are far better, you can even use then against fliers, 35 points more expensive but it's not razonable that their prize will rise

[Grand Master Caloth]

I have to agree, dual FOC is kinda bad at 2k. If say maybe 2k1 and up, but not 2k. Also, ive noticed in a lot of tournaments the points are going down, which I like as it forces players to make hard tactical decisions when it comes to their lists. Less breaky, more tactics and critical maneuvering skills. Sacrificing the one objective to stronghold your grip on the other two, and leading to more desperate battles. Idk bout everyone else, but im much more satisfied with close wins than out and out monkey-stomps.

 

but for the OP, you definately hold a theme, and I could see this throwing some players for a loop, but with thw onset of codex creep, im willing to bet the newer dexes are going to have some suprising answers to your more unique challenges. Time will tell, I guess... Lets all just get past the Tau release, eh?

[Gentlemanloser]

The problem is, the lower points you go, the less able (in some cases totally unable...) you are to cover all the bases.

 

So 40k's current Rock - Paper - Scissors design gets condensed.

 

And if your run a Paper list and your three tournament opponents are all Scissors...

 

Well, you get the gist.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Hense the harder decisions when it comes to army list. Its always a luck of the draw at tournaments, so yes, its a risk you run. You build the list to what you're best comfortable with and duke it out. If your opponent just built a list that can handle yours, it was luck he drew you, cause there will be lists his cant handle either, like others potentially wont be able to take on yours. At 2000 it usually turns into "who has enough cash to buy all the cool kid toys", and not who can build and run the most tactically viable list

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

50 points for two HQs.

 

6 DreadKnights!!!!!!!!!

 

Nope, I think the whole idea is fundamentally unbalanced.

 

Dual FoC allows you to load up more on the break the game stuff.  Who'd ever want to face 6 Helldrakes....

 

I have this argument every time, yet it never seems to stick. 

 

Dual Force Org lets you (in theory) spam out power units. However, you still need a minimum investment of;

 

2 x HQ

4 x Troops

 

^Knights can cheat with that requirement (due to Coteaz+Henchmen spam), but if you don't include Coteaz, your min options are;

 

2 x Bro Champ (I'm joking, no one actually do this ;) )

4 x 5 Strike Knights (again, don't)

 

For CSM, they again can cheat a little, with

2 x Apostle/Forgedude

4 x 10 Cultists

 

 

However, think carefully. What is the problem with both of those lists?

 

.....................................................

 

Yeah, thats right. Their core scoring will get blown off the table Turn 1/2 with little effort from a good opponent. So, they auto-lose objective missions. 

 

6 x DK or 6 x Heldrake is intimidating...until they come up against Vendetta/Night Scythe spam, or new Tau, or even many balanced lists bringing the right hard counters. 

 

In the end, such spam lists are going to be very variable. Sometimes, you'll play Sisters or Daemons, and enjoy your free win (along with most other army builds, TBH). Othertimes, you'll come across Deathwing, mass Vendettas or some other such hard-counter to your build, and they enjoy their free win against you. 

 

Moreover, its actually quite hard to afford such lists at 2k. DK spam, unless you mean 'herpaderp slowpoke' DK's, will break 2k with even modest upgrades and support units. Same for Heldrake spam, would be a weird CSM player who went 'oh Cultists are all I need for scoring'. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Knights can cheat with that requirement (due to Coteaz+Henchmen spam), but if you don't include Coteaz, your min options are;

2 x Bro Champ (I'm joking, no one actually do this )

4 x 5 Strike Knights (again, don't)

Two bare Inquisitors mate. ;) 150 points cheaper than dual Bro's.

It's not just spamming 'power' units, but consider facing 360 ork boyz, or dual FoC IG platoons. The time just to move them would make the game terrible. And can you bring enough killing power to have a hope of killing them all within 5-7 turns?

And the dice rolling... >_<

[Brother Maikel]

Knights can cheat with that requirement (due to Coteaz+Henchmen spam), but if you don't include Coteaz, your min options are;

2 x Bro Champ (I'm joking, no one actually do this )

4 x 5 Strike Knights (again, don't)

Two bare Inquisitors mate. 150 points cheaper than dual Bro's.

It's not just spamming 'power' units, but consider facing 360 ork boyz, or dual FoC IG platoons. The time just to move them would make the game terrible. And can you bring enough killing power to have a hope of killing them all within 5-7 turns?

And the dice rolling... >_<

I'm in agreement with Reclusiarch Darius on this. The excess allowed by DFO with respect to "power units" are handily reigned in by points available in the near-2k points range, at least if you want to have reasonable scoring.

DFO allows Guard less than one extra full platoon at 2k, and that's only if none of your platoons or CCS's have any upgrades (7x Platoons made of PCS+5 Infantry Squads comes to 1960, and you still need 2 HQ's that are a minimum of 50pts each). If you want weapons that aren't lasguns whatever mass-guardsman-army you field will easily fit within 1 FoC.

Orks can take advantage of DFO, but can still only hit 320 boyz in 2k points with two big meks, and 10 points in upgrades. I suppose if you go for gretchin you would be able to hit 396 scoring bodies, for 1440pts, at the expense of having your scoring units almost completely and entirely useless against any vehicle or MC.

Regardless, any mass-bodies army will be limited by the fact that you're talking about 3-400 individual models to buy, assemble, paint, transport, setup, move and shoot. They won't show up in a tournament because they're expensive, easily countered, annoying to play against, annoying to play with, and even when your opponent doesn't have a hard counter its unlikely you'll finish more than a couple of turns, these armies are prone to giving up first blood, and so the player who brings one will likely lose barring unfair objective distribution.

In practice I've found DFO pretty much lets you bring an extra unit or two from your favorite Org Slot when you're sitting at 2k points. Once you start hitting 2250 or higher it changes a little, but that's getting into Apoc levels.

[Gentlemanloser]

The one I like posting is;

 

HQ: Coteaz (100)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

 

HQ:

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

Troop: Warrior x5, Bolter x5, Razor, Psybolt (75)

 

Total: 1,000

 

This leave you 1k points minimum to pick up either a GKGM (or two) and make some Puri's/Purgation/Whatever scoring, or ally in some durable Troops.

 

You can bring this to under 1K by taking bare minimum Warrior Squads (844 in total for 12 x 3 Warriors).

 

12 TL S6 Razors?  And only half your army?  Who wants to face that?

 

And 'crons could fit 12 Scythes (with MSU Warriors inside) comfortably under 2K.  Sure, would be a nervous first turn for whatever's placed on board.

 

But you play me big, you win me big! :P

[Brother Maikel]

I honestly wouldn't mind facing that list.

 

An IG ally detachment can bring the same number of comparable vehicles (Chimera vs Psyback) with better armour and about twice the number of bodies (that have the option to blob for survivability) for just 220 pts more.  And it can be added to virtually any army in the game, not to mention the other advantages IG allies bring (Vendettas, Manticore, Marbo).

 

This isn't even taking into account all the trouble that a 12-vehicle army would have with movement, firing ranges, etc.

 

Scythe super-spam has even more problems with placement and firing lanes, especially with the movement restrictions on flyers.  Best you can get is 11x Scythe + 5 Warriors, 2x Overlord for 1995 pts.  They can already get close to that list with 1 FoC anyway: 6x Night Scythe + Warriors, 2x Night Scythe + Deathmarks, 3x Doom Scythe, Overlord is the same cost for the same number of flyers.

 

 

Dual FoC offers the option to create silly armies, yes.  But not really overpowered ones, in my experience.  At least, not overpowered ones that you couldn't already field with one FoC.  You just don't have the points to really go crazy.  And when you get to the points level where dual FoC actually enables crazy OP armies that one FoC wouldn't you should really be playing Apocalypse anyways.

[Aethernitas]

Double FOC lists are plain silly - even if most of them can be beaten more or less consistently my preferred approach to a double-FOC-sillyness-opponent is to buy him a beer and offer to talk about his... problems.

[IndigoJack]

I understand why GW wanted the double FOC. At large level games, brining more HQs, elites, FA, and HS is always fun. However, I honestly think they should have allowed at point levels greater than 2000pts. Honestly, I think they underestimated the player bases ability to squeeze points where ever possible to hit that 2000 pts mark just so they can have 4+ of something other than troops.

[Gentlemanloser]

I honestly wouldn't mind facing that list.

 

An IG ally detachment can bring the same number of comparable

vehicles (Chimera vs Psyback) with better armour and about twice the

number of bodies (that have the option to blob for survivability) for

just 220 pts more.  And it can be added to virtually any army in the

game, not to mention the other advantages IG allies bring (Vendettas,

Manticore, Marbo).

 

You have at least 1,000 points left.

 

Ally in that IG as well.

 

24 odd Vehicles?  With a big blob of stubborn IG.

 

 

Scythe super-spam has even more problems with placement and firing

lanes, especially with the movement restrictions on flyers.  Best you

can get is 11x Scythe + 5 Warriors, 2x Overlord for 1995 pts.  They can

already get close to that list with 1 FoC anyway: 6x Night

Scythe + Warriors, 2x Night Scythe + Deathmarks, 3x Doom Scythe,

Overlord is the same cost for the same number of flyers.

 

Yup.  But that doesn't include 12 hidden scroing units.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Scythe spam is awful if you bring proper Skyfire tech. AV11 is laughable. AV13 wall is the real power list for Crons. 

 

Look, spamming Psybacks is nice, but Tau will rip you apart in two Shooting phases. They're that strong now. Then you are left with Acolytes...

[Brother Maikel]

Gentlemanloser, on 14 Apr 2013 - 03:01, said:

 

 

Quote

An IG ally detachment for 1220

You have at least 1,000 points left.

 

Ally in that IG as well.

 

24 odd Vehicles? With a big blob of stubborn IG.

 

Why bring the GK psybacks at all? That IG ally detachment was built with just 2 partial Platoons. Within one primary FoC you still have 4 more Platoons to work with. If MSU vehicle spam is what you're after you don't need dual Force Org to do it.

Gentlemanloser, on 14 Apr 2013 - 03:01, said:

 

 

Quote

Scythe super-spam vs 6x Night

Scythe + Warriors, 2x Night Scythe + Deathmarks, 3x Doom Scythe,

Overlord: same cost for the same number of flyers.

Yup. But that doesn't include 12 hidden scroing units.

 

Neither does a dual FoC list. You get a max of 11, and against most enemy lists you'd better put at least a couple of the warrior units on the ground to avoid a T1 wipeout (2x Overlord isn't terribly survivable, unless you've got a tremendous amount of terrain). Plus Deathmarks are even better contesting units than warriors.

 

As for the OP's list, I think its a good pass at a mass psyback list. I might swap out a couple acolyte squads and/or special weapons for a strike squad or two... warp quake would help vs deep strike lists (deathwing, drop pod), and with Coteaz you have a pretty good chance of going first. Also, maybe Plasma Cannons on the servitors instead of MM's? Reduces their utility vs flyers, but could really help vs the aforementioned tau, TDA, etc.