Dark Talon/Nephilim Jetfighter

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

Personally the arguments about the design philosophy are somewhat irrelevant, the real proof of whether a unit is appropriately priced is whether it is often seen on the gaming table.

Apropriate priced the way you put it brother is synonimus with spammed the heck out of it because it can destroy entire armies like that :snaps fingers.

So helldrakes and Necron flyers (examples) should fall into that category?

 

Brother Immolator, that was not really what I was saying, I will try and explain more clearly, if something is over-costed then it will rarely be seen on the gaming table (e.g. techmarines), if something is appropriately costed then it will be seen more often (e.g. landspeeders), then finally if something is under-costed (e.g. Helldrakes) then people will start to spam that unit selection and it will be seen very frequently. I am suggesting that on this very rough scale the Nephillim would appear to be over-costed as it is rarely selected, to me this is a shame as it is a beautiful model. I am not suggesting that we should have a unit like the Helldrake that we could over-use and abuse.

 

Dont worry brother, I am perfectly aware of what you meant. Thanks for taking the time to clarify though.

My question was rather rhetoric and in a way of food for thought, because most pps confuse one with the other.

[IndigoJack]

 

(granted that teh interweb is my main source for that anecdotal evidence)

 

A lot of these dear Stobz, a lot of these...And with conviction larger than....a thunderhawk to boot....

Here's the thing, if a few people came to that conclusion, and everyone parroted it (like this mech is dead thing I keep hearing), you'd have something. However, when many people independently reach the same conclusion, it might be time to face facts: DA got the short end of the stick when I comes to fliers.

[Brother Immolator]

(granted that teh interweb is my main source for that anecdotal evidence)

A lot of these dear Stobz, a lot of these...And with conviction larger than....a thunderhawk to boot....

Here's the thing, if a few people came to that conclusion, and everyone parroted it (like this mech is dead thing I keep hearing), you'd have something. However, when many people independently reach the same conclusion, it might be time to face facts: DA got the short end of the stick when I comes to fliers.

They are not balanced to our list. If they were, players would not have to take allies for use FW for reliable AA.

Come

on now you they do not do it for the reliable anti-air. The

blackknights and three missiles with flakk are pretty good anti air and

you are not going to face flying circus necrons all the time at every

store.

Flakk missiles are okay against AV11, but not great

against AV12, unless you take a lot of it (and that gets expensive real

quick.) BKs are okay AA, but you stand a decent chance of blowing a BK

up every time you do it. Not to mention that isn't there designed

purpose (debuff/interceptor unit/beat stick.) even twin-linked, you're

still praying for 6s and even though statistically I should get them,

Murphy's Law says it won't happen when I need it to.

>>>>

We have flakks (woo...) or praying for 6s.

Well

I have still yet to face a flyer that got past the third turn of its

existance and I am using only black knights and three missiles (one from

a scout squad mind you). So unless you face spam its as reliable as it

gets.

I face a lot of CSM though, and between blastmasters and double heldrakes, I don't see those units surviving past turn 3 for me.

Btw, we do not have cheap termies. Ours are the most expensive in the game.

And with the best rules, gear and weapon options

The

only thing they dont do is coffee and handing out candy...Unless you

consider a plasma pie plate candy...It kinda is if you consider what

they do put into candies these days...

Didn't say they weren't good, just expensive.

Hell drakes are an odd exception to flyers and blast masters have nothing to do with flakk. Though I understand your concearn because if spammed

they can turn the table by themselves.

Consider that a flier needs to enter from reserves though and that the knights have the best chance of side shooting it. Plasma is and will always be a

hazard. Its the risk involved in fielding the unit. But if you dont use it to take out a helldrake for rear shots, then you wont be using its rapid fire for anything then and its best avoid it completely. Not my cup of tea leaving them to the wardrobe but...whatever works for you.

Here's

the thing, if a few people came to that conclusion, and everyone

parroted it (like this mech is dead thing I keep hearing), you'd have

something. However, when many people independently reach the same

conclusion, it might be time to face facts: DA got the short end of the

stick when I comes to fliers.

One and the other are completely irrelevant.

Mech is not dead, but it aint as worth it as it was in prior editions and you are seriously handicapping yourself with it.

I had two razorbacks in my lists. After a recent game the only thing they did was to handle first blood to my oponet in a single shot.

EDIT: Again its a point of view (flyers). For anti air sure they are useless. However upon upgrading for anti tank duty (las cannons) they can do that...dicently.

The talon is a not a flyer (as in a GW/40k term flyer i.e. a gunship), its a flying supporting vehicle. Its only natural people hate it. The internetwebs understand only what translates into points per kill. Force multiplying is only a recent term they strugle to come into grips with. Though it apeared on the necron codex at first, the edition was not suited for said things and resurfaced recently with the chaos dex and our codex. Time and good generalship will judge the talon, if anyone braves it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

^{Heh heh heh; I agree that mech is less useful than in previous Editions however, in my last game I had four razorbacks and two Whirlwinds; between them they gave me first blood and effectively won me the game on turn one by exploding two transports and nuking the squishy contents tipping the balance too far in my favour. Sometimes things work well and othertimes they bomb out badly.}

 

^{As mentioned; Units not seeing the table is the real test of value in relation to internal balance, individual examples to the contrary do not disprove the rule ;)}

 

^{Whats up with the new board mucking up the font size at random times???}

 

^s

[Brother Immolator]

Nah, you are just too lazy to edit it and blame the forum for it

[IndigoJack]

Hell drakes are an odd exception to flyers and blast masters have nothing to do with flakk. Though I understand your concearn because if spammed

they can turn the table by themselves.

 

Consider that a flier needs to enter from reserves though and that the knights have the best chance of side shooting it. Plasma is and  will always be a

hazard. Its the risk involved in fielding the unit. But if you dont use it to take out a helldrake for rear shots, then you wont be using its rapid fire for anything then and its best avoid it completely. Not my cup of tea leaving them to the wardrobe but...whatever works for you.

 

 

You do realize that you have a greater chance it getting hot when firing against fliers than against ground targets, right? I have no problem rapid firing at ground targets, but air definitely gives me hesitation.

 

 

 

One and the other are completely irrelevant.

Mech is not dead, but it aint as worth it as it was in prior editions and you are seriously handicapping yourself with it.

I had two razorbacks in my lists. After a recent game the only thing they did was to handle first blood to my oponet in a single shot.

 

EDIT: Again its a point of view (flyers). For anti air sure they are useless. However upon upgrading for anti tank duty (las cannons) they can do that...dicently.

 

The talon is a not a flyer (as in a GW/40k term flyer i.e. a gunship), its a flying supporting vehicle. Its only natural people hate it. The internetwebs understand only what translates into points per kill. Force multiplying is only a recent term they strugle to come into grips with. Though it apeared on the necron codex at first, the edition was not suited for said things and resurfaced recently with the chaos dex and our codex. Time and good generalship will judge the talon, if anyone braves it.

My point was a very vocal minority claimed mech was dead when it in fact works fine (just different). On the other hand a vocal majority have reached the conclusion that DA flyers are not great, and many have reached that conclusion independently.

 

The nephilim isn't even decent at anti-tank. Predators, RAS w/ melta, 5man tacs with lascannons, all do AT at least as good or better, but do it far cheaper.

 

The dark talon is an ok force multiplier. Only one stasis bomb is meh, and the rift cannon doesn't make the flyer worth 160pts. Force multiplication has been around longer than you think. Psykers have been been acting as for e multipliers for most of 5th.

[Diavlo]

I'll tell you how it was with Nephilim.

Let's go back in time several months. Discussion between guys writing new DA codex.

Guy- Guys this is how I see this Aerial superiority fighter and close air support. I wanted it to be only air superiority, but then I thought that we can try do both, but increase price.

Group - hmm good idea, any details?

Guy - Lets give him TL HB, TL Lascannons and let's say 6 missiles with strength 7 blast and give him Missile Lock so those missiles won't deviate too much. I'll add also a new rule lets say "unrelenting hunter" that will allow Nephilim to shoot other fliers with blast weapons.

Group - WOW, but that needs to be expensive let's say 180 points.

Guy - Ok he will be able to shoot those missiles VS air or destroy lot of infantry on the ground.

Group - ok we do this.

Month later

Group - You know what. Now we think that this Nephilim may be too overpowered, people hate that. They are already raging about Necron fliers. We should tone down it a bit, make it strength 6 and remove that blast.

Guy - What about unrelenting hunter rule? It will be obsolete without Blast

Group - Leave that name Unrelenting Hunter, but change the way it works... hmm maybe change results after penetration roll, or something like that. People would rage about blasts hitting fliers

Guy - Ok lets do this I'll send info to china so they can fix this before printing.

Group - Good job gents we have avoided some serious problems.

What do you brothers think about that?

[Interrogator Stobz]

Too close for comfort really; I guess the truth hurts, GW hasn't shown any fantastic level of control over actual playtesting and turning that into decent rules..."models first!!!' :rolleyes:

stobz

[march10k]

They are not balanced to our list. If they were, players would not have to take allies for use FW for reliable AA cheapest available AA.

 

Fixed that for you.  SAM Devastators are incredibly relialbe...just not points-efficient.  You dip into other codexes because it saves you points, not because our anti-air weapons are cursed with a "random result on this here comically orky table" effect.  They are, in fact balanced to the list...and if we're to draw the short end of the stick in any aspect, I'd rather it be air defense, not melee, eh?  Fliers are expensive, non-scoring, and mostly not transports...and hence, with thanks to Mr. Adams, "mostly harmless." 

[Onisuzume]

Too close for comfort really; I guess the truth hurts, GW hasn't shown any fantastic level of control over actual playtesting and turning that into decent rules..."models first!!!'

stobz

Well, what did you expect from a miniatures selling company?

SAM Devastators are incredibly relialbe...just not points-efficient.

I dare say that a TLLC Mortis is both more reliable and more points-efficient.

Ditto for the TLAC Mortis.

As for the Nephilim, how do people usually field it (against other flyers)?

With the AMB or with the TLLC?

Different weapons will get different results, of course.

Also, do you use the dog fighting rules or not?

[Brother Immolator]

 

Hell drakes are an odd exception to flyers and blast masters have nothing to do with flakk. Though I understand your concearn because if spammed

they can turn the table by themselves.

 

Consider that a flier needs to enter from reserves though and that the knights have the best chance of side shooting it. Plasma is and  will always be a

hazard. Its the risk involved in fielding the unit. But if you dont use it to take out a helldrake for rear shots, then you wont be using its rapid fire for anything then and its best avoid it completely. Not my cup of tea leaving them to the wardrobe but...whatever works for you.

 

 

You do realize that you have a greater chance it getting hot when firing against fliers than against ground targets, right? I have no problem rapid firing at ground targets, but air definitely gives me hesitation.

I fail to see how gets hot rolls are modified differently against flyers explain.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

 

Hell drakes are an odd exception to flyers and blast masters have nothing to do with flakk. Though I understand your concearn because if spammed

they can turn the table by themselves.

 

Consider that a flier needs to enter from reserves though and that the knights have the best chance of side shooting it. Plasma is and  will always be a

hazard. Its the risk involved in fielding the unit. But if you dont use it to take out a helldrake for rear shots, then you wont be using its rapid fire for anything then and its best avoid it completely. Not my cup of tea leaving them to the wardrobe but...whatever works for you.

 

 

You do realize that you have a greater chance it getting hot when firing against fliers than against ground targets, right? I have no problem rapid firing at ground targets, but air definitely gives me hesitation.

I fail to see how gets hot rolls are modified differently against flyers explain.

if you're hitting on 3+ you hit more thus you need less re-rolls... but if you're hitting on 6+ you'll have to do more re-rolls thus more chance to get 1s

[bystrom]

 

 

I fail to see how gets hot rolls are modified differently against flyers explain.

if you're hitting on 3+ you hit more thus you need less re-rolls... but if you're hitting on 6+ you'll have to do more re-rolls thus more chance to get 1s

Having checked the rulebook, then rechecked it, I interpret the Get's Hot rule as follows:

Only if you rolled a 1 on the to-hit AND the re-roll do you suffer a wound.

 

The actual rule is

 

 [...] a wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1

The word "also" is used. So a normal, non-twinlinked weapon has a 1/6 chance of overheating on one shot. A TL weapon, or one where you for some reason get a re-roll, has a 1/36 chance of overheating.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

 

 

I fail to see how gets hot rolls are modified differently against flyers explain.

if you're hitting on 3+ you hit more thus you need less re-rolls... but if you're hitting on 6+ you'll have to do more re-rolls thus more chance to get 1s

Having checked the rulebook, then rechecked it, I interpret the Get's Hot rule as follows:

Only if you rolled a 1 on the to-hit AND the re-roll do you suffer a wound.

 

The actual rule is

>> 

 [...] a wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1

The word "also" is used. So a normal, non-twinlinked weapon has a 1/6 chance of overheating on one shot. A TL weapon, or one where you for some reason get a re-roll, has a 1/36 chance of overheating.

 

Correct, but I did'nt make myself clear.

I'll throw in an example:

you fire 6 shots at 3+ to hit, 4 hit, 2 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 2 extra hits. so, 6 shots, 6 hits with reroll.. no overheats

But: you fire 6 shots at 6+ to hit, 1 hit, 5 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 1 hits... and 2 of the re-rolls are 1s so, 6 shots, 2 hit, 2 overheats due to the fact you re-rolled more dice.

[bystrom]

Correct, but I did'nt make myself clear.

I'll throw in an example:

you fire 6 shots at 3+ to hit, 4 hit, 2 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 2 extra hits. so, 6 shots, 6 hits with reroll.. no overheats

But: you fire 6 shots at 6+ to hit, 1 hit, 5 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 1 hits... and 2 of the re-rolls are 1s so, 6 shots, 2 hit, 2 overheats due to the fact you re-rolled more dice.

I believe you didn't understand my point. On the first set of rolls, only the one die that scored a 1 is relevant when it comes to overheating.

 

So fire 6 shots, 3+ to hit, one die is a 1. On the reroll, you have a 1/6 chance of once again rolling a 1 and overheating.

Firing 6 shots, 6+ to hit, one die is a 1. On the reroll, only the one miss that resulted in a 1 can ever overheat. It doesn't matter that you have 4 other dice that could potentially end up as 1s, as BOTH the to-hit AND the re-roll needs to be overheats.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My bad.. I was still thinking with 5th ed overheat parameters.

[bystrom]

Totally understandable; I had written a lengthy post where I explained exactly what you were saying above about more misses = more likely overheats. Before posting, I figured I could check the rules just to be thorough. Was I surprised when I saw the Get's Hot rule! So I didn't post a response, waited 5 minutes before rechecking the rulebook just to see if I had misread the rules, before I realized, the rules were different! :D

[BigGumbo]

 

Correct, but I did'nt make myself clear.

I'll throw in an example:

you fire 6 shots at 3+ to hit, 4 hit, 2 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 2 extra hits. so, 6 shots, 6 hits with reroll.. no overheats

But: you fire 6 shots at 6+ to hit, 1 hit, 5 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 1 hits... and 2 of the re-rolls are 1s so, 6 shots, 2 hit, 2 overheats due to the fact you re-rolled more dice.

I believe you didn't understand my point. On the first set of rolls, only the one die that scored a 1 is relevant when it comes to overheating.

 

So fire 6 shots, 3+ to hit, one die is a 1. On the reroll, you have a 1/6 chance of once again rolling a 1 and overheating.

Firing 6 shots, 6+ to hit, one die is a 1. On the reroll, only the one miss that resulted in a 1 can ever overheat. It doesn't matter that you have 4 other dice that could potentially end up as 1s, as BOTH the to-hit AND the re-roll needs to be overheats.

Ooh, I hadn't picked up on that nuance of Gets Hot. Nice spot...

[Brother dean]

. 

 

One and the other are completely irrelevant.

My point was a very vocal minority claimed mech was dead when it in fact works fine (just different). On the other hand a vocal majority have reached the conclusion that DA flyers are not great, and many have reached that conclusion independently.

 

 

 

The nephilim isn't even decent at anti-tank. Predators, RAS w/ melta, 5man tacs with lascannons, all do AT at least as good or better, but do it far cheaper.

 

The dark talon is an ok force multiplier. Only one stasis bomb is meh, and the rift cannon doesn't make the flyer worth 160pts. Force multiplication has been around longer than you think. Psykers have been been acting as for e multipliers for most of 5th.

Have many people Independantly reached that conclusion?  Do you have numbers?  You are currently a "very vocal minority", "parroting" what others have said.  Have you USED the plane in question?  I havent (cause it isnt painted yet) and I actually own one....

 

Predators, 5 man Tacs with Lascannons and RAS with melta do not have the ability to move 18" - 36", have a 48" range and still be able to fire a Lascannon, A Heavy Bolter and 2 S6 missiles.  That Dev squad is 130 points (fine, 5 wounds instead of 2 and S8 missiles) so that is only 50 more points for the ability to move and shoot.  What would you pay to be able to do that with a Pread?  Now lets add "Cant be shot at except on a 6 or with an expensive special ability....   It isnt the Nephilim's fault that Storm Talons, Heldrakes and most especially Stormravens and Valks are so cheap for so many abilities.  Have GW screwed up by pointing those others at fire sale prices just to get people to buy them?  Yes!  Most assuredly yes!

 

Storm Talon has two weapons

Heldrake has one and a special attack ability.

[elphilo]

Have many people Independantly reached that conclusion? Do you have numbers? You are currently a "very vocal minority", "parroting" what others have said. Have you USED the plane in question? I havent (cause it isnt painted yet) and I actually own one....

Storm Talon has two weapons

Heldrake has one and a special attack ability.

Just my 2 cents. I've only played with the Nelphilim and found it very underwhelming. Its single lascannon shot for being its AA is laughable and frankly not worth it. For 10 points cheaper you can get a Devastator squad with 4 Krak missiles, that outperforms a single lascannon shot versus flyers. In fact the Nelphilim underperformed so well that it has made me not even want to try out the Darktalon. I should probably give it a shot, but I get the feeling its going to do the same thing that the Nelphilim did to me. Disappoint.

And frankly, I'd rather have a storm talon any day of the week. But thats probably because Assault Cannons are my favorite ranged weapon

[Brother dean]

Thanks El Phil.  There is one that has used it.  Good.  Anyone else?

 

I my personal opinion is that it is mis-labeled as an air superiority fighter.  Both of the DA planes have "Strafing run" in some form.  (I'll never use it on the DT as to sit still for a turn would be death)  And Unrelenting Hunter works against tanks...   With the TLLC and the missiles you have a Tornado tank hunter with some anti infantry and with the AMB you have a ton of anti infantry with some missiles for the occasional light tank.   GW "marketing" just called it the wrong thing.  Dont get hung up on labels, Look at what it can do...

 

 

Edit:  and yeah..  I'll just be hanging out in chamber 42...

[Upstartes]

The Nephilim is so close to being just right. In my mind, it's all about the missiles. If the missiles were strength 8 or str 6 and armorbane, the Nephilim would seem perfectly priced to me. Even str 7 missiles might make it worthwhile, though then I'd be wondering why the adeptus mechanicus hadn't just put an autocannon on the thing instead of those missiles.

 

As is, the missiles are really a worthless weapon. As someone said, they're too weak to be anti-armor and since they're not blast they aren't good anti-infantry either. As one-shot weapons go, they are really, really bad. A foot-soldier with a shoulder-fired launcher can carry six anti-air missiles that are better than than the blacksword missiles.

 

Maybe the Nephilim should have had a pulpit-cupola so a guy could sit in it and fire a missile launcher.

[Nasse]

 

Maybe the Nephilim should have had a pulpit-cupola so a guy could sit in it and fire a missile launcher.

Oh God-Emperor, anything but that!

[Iron Sage]

 

 

(granted that teh interweb is my main source for that anecdotal evidence)

 

A lot of these dear Stobz, a lot of these...And with conviction larger than....a thunderhawk to boot....

Here's the thing, if a few people came to that conclusion, and everyone parroted it (like this mech is dead thing I keep hearing), you'd have something. However, when many people independently reach the same conclusion, it might be time to face facts: DA got the short end of the stick when I comes to fliers.

 

 

It seems perfectly balanced for your Codex to my eyes, and I love your codex. If you had the best flier ON TOP of the rest of your unquestionable goddies, then what the hell would you need allies for???? I read people here writing that "you should not need to add allies to fix a deficiency in your list", and I think instantly: "Lol, wut!!!??" Obviously, codices should have diffierent and various strenght and weaknesses. That really ought to go without saying. Really guys...

Vendetta and many of the Imp Guard units and other codices from the 5ed, have units that are undercosted, this is true, however please DO consider the fact that Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels and Chaos Daemons are all roughly equal in terms of powerlevel (though chaos dex is a bit more bland it should be said). This my friends, is a fundamental difference as to how 5ed was with that unbearable power creep and crappy codices that were frankly always overpowered (I give you Lame Knights and Necrons as examples). At least as of now, 6ed seems to be a new bright start (yes, I choose knowingly to be naive and have some faith given that so far, it actually appears as if GW is actually for once balancing the game)

 

 

Fliers, and indeed UNITS, are not supposed to be equal in effectivenes and points. if they were, then you might as well just play one single codex with different lists...

[IndigoJack]

They are not balanced to our list. If they were, players would not have to take allies for use FW for reliable AA cheapest available AA efficient AA.

Fixed that for you. SAM Devastators are incredibly relialbe...just not points-efficient. You dip into other codexes because it saves you points, not because our anti-air weapons are cursed with a "random result on this here comically orky table" effect. They are, in fact balanced to the list...and if we're to draw the short end of the stick in any aspect, I'd rather it be air defense, not melee, eh? Fliers are expensive, non-scoring, and mostly not transports...and hence, with thanks to Mr. Adams, "mostly harmless."

There, I compromised Flakk devs, are ok. S7 really doesn't cut it against AV12, but works fine with AV11. I think a few heldrakes would like a word with you. They might be insulted by you calling them, "mostly harmless." Likewise, ignoring a SR full of death company probably isn't a great idea either. Most flyers have their perks, whether they are cheap, transports, or solid fire-bases. The nephilim is none of these.

Correct, but I did'nt make myself clear.

I'll throw in an example:

you fire 6 shots at 3+ to hit, 4 hit, 2 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 2 extra hits. so, 6 shots, 6 hits with reroll.. no overheats

But: you fire 6 shots at 6+ to hit, 1 hit, 5 miss, one miss is a 1. you re-roll misses, getting 1 hits... and 2 of the re-rolls are 1s so, 6 shots, 2 hit, 2 overheats due to the fact you re-rolled more dice.

I believe you didn't understand my point. On the first set of rolls, only the one die that scored a 1 is relevant when it comes to overheating.

So fire 6 shots, 3+ to hit, one die is a 1. On the reroll, you have a 1/6 chance of once again rolling a 1 and overheating.

Firing 6 shots, 6+ to hit, one die is a 1. On the reroll, only the one miss that resulted in a 1 can ever overheat. It doesn't matter that you have 4 other dice that could potentially end up as 1s, as BOTH the to-hit AND the re-roll needs to be overheats.

This is something I was also unaware of, and does make me look at BKs as a AA a little different.

.

One and the other are completely irrelevant.

My point was a very vocal minority claimed mech was dead when it in fact works fine (just different). On the other hand a vocal majority have reached the conclusion that DA flyers are not great, and many have reached that conclusion independently.

The nephilim isn't even decent at anti-tank. Predators, RAS w/ melta, 5man tacs with lascannons, all do AT at least as good or better, but do it far cheaper.

The dark talon is an ok force multiplier. Only one stasis bomb is meh, and the rift cannon doesn't make the flyer worth 160pts. Force multiplication has been around longer than you think. Psykers have been been acting as for e multipliers for most of 5th.

Have many people Independantly reached that conclusion? Do you have numbers? You are currently a "very vocal minority", "parroting" what others have said. Have you USED the plane in question? I havent (cause it isnt painted yet) and I actually own one....

Predators, 5 man Tacs with Lascannons and RAS with melta do not have the ability to move 18" - 36", have a 48" range and still be able to fire a Lascannon, A Heavy Bolter and 2 S6 missiles. That Dev squad is 130 points (fine, 5 wounds instead of 2 and S8 missiles) so that is only 50 more points for the ability to move and shoot. What would you pay to be able to do that with a Pread? Now lets add "Cant be shot at except on a 6 or with an expensive special ability.... It isnt the Nephilim's fault that Storm Talons, Heldrakes and most especially Stormravens and Valks are so cheap for so many abilities. Have GW screwed up by pointing those others at fire sale prices just to get people to buy them? Yes! Most assuredly yes!

Storm Talon has two weapons

Heldrake has one and a special attack ability.

Blogs, batreps, many people in this thread are all saying the nephilim is sub-par. While I am certainly vocal, I am neither in the minority or parroting information. I have used the nephilim. As well as the heldrake, storm talon (pre and post FAQ), and the storm raven (only GK variety). The nephilim simply under performed in its AA duties (I'll cover below why it's not great at AT either). The storm raven and storm talon are both flyers that are actually pointed properly. The storm talon is 2HP (it's biggest weakness) which is why it got the reduction. If the storm raven was any cheaper, it would be broken, and if it was anymore expensive, it wouldn't be worth it (take a land raider instead.)

48" range usually means you don't have to move, unless you're playing hammer and anvil. You'll be in range by turn 2 though, which is the earliest your flyer would show up anyways.

"Only 50 points..." This may be the primary reason for your disagreement. When it comes to efficiency, 50 points is a lot. 20 points is a lot.

weapoons needing 6s to hit flyers is fine, but other armies are starting to get AA now, and this will not be something I see as a big deal for many armies in the future.Also, RAS can hide in reserve and outflank, devs can hide in cover and 25% cover for a pred isn't that hard to get. There are ways to make the difference up without spending the same amount of points as a nephilim.

You're argument that every other flyer is too expensive and ours is priced right is really a matter of perspective. If you look at it another way, the storm talon, storm raven and heldrake (prior to the FAQ) are all pointed properly for what they do. Vendettas (not valks) are definitely too cheap, and need to be pointed at the same value as the nephilim.

The storm talon may only have two weapons, but both it's weapons (no matter the load-out) can be used against every flyer GW has released. Even if the nephilim was AT instead of AA, most of it's weapons are largely ineffectual against anything not AV11. The heldrake's special ability is pretty great for AA. D3+2 S7 attacks? Those auto-hit, so at a minimum, you're getting 3 hits. It also can't be removed. This is big, as you have to destroy the flyer to prevent vector strikes.