Dark Talon/Nephilim Jetfighter

[IndigoJack]

 

 

 

(granted that teh interweb is my main source for that anecdotal evidence)

 

A lot of these dear Stobz, a lot of these...And with conviction larger than....a thunderhawk to boot....

Here's the thing, if a few people came to that conclusion, and everyone parroted it (like this mech is dead thing I keep hearing), you'd have something. However, when many people independently reach the same conclusion, it might be time to face facts: DA got the short end of the stick when I comes to fliers.

 

 

It seems perfectly balanced for your Codex to my eyes, and I love your codex. If you had the best flier ON TOP of the rest of your unquestionable goddies, then what the hell would you need allies for???? I read people here writing that "you should not need to add allies to fix a deficiency in your list", and I think instantly: "Lol, wut!!!??" Obviously, codices should have diffierent and various strenght and weaknesses. That really ought to go without saying. Really guys...

Vendetta and many of the Imp Guard units and other codices from the 5ed, have units that are undercosted, this is true, however please DO consider the fact that Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels and Chaos Daemons are all roughly equal in terms of powerlevel (though chaos dex is a bit more bland it should be said). This my friends, is a fundamental difference as to how 5ed was with that unbearable power creep and crappy codices that were frankly always overpowered (I give you Lame Knights and Necrons as examples). At least as of now, 6ed seems to be a new bright start (yes, I choose knowingly to be naive and have some faith given that so far, it actually appears as if GW is actually for once balancing the game)

 

 

Fliers, and indeed UNITS, are not supposed to be equal in effectivenes and points. if they were, then you might as well just play one single codex with different lists...

 

Allies should not be used to fix holes in a codex. The purpose of allies is to allow you to use other armies you may own with the army you're collecting now, or as a gateway to start new armies by starting with an allied contingent. Codex should have strengths and weakness, but the nephilim is a bad unit. It's confused about whether it's AA, anti-tank, or anti-infantry. If it's anti-tank or anti-infantry, there are other units that do it better and more efficiently. If it's AA, it has two rather ineffectual weapons, and only a TLLC or avenger mega bolter for decent AA. One lascannon shot isn't really reliable, and the mega-bolter isn't great against AV12. There would be far less complaints about the nephilim if it could fulfill any role decently.

[Upstartes]

One interesting wrinkle is the dogfighting rules. I haven't played with them yet, but based on my reading of them, the seem like they may even the playing field a little for flyers with only one good gun (like, say, a Nephilim). On the other hand, I hate the idea of having to encourage my friends to play with dogfighting rules so that my flyer can have a better chance of doing something, rather than just encouraging their use for the fun change of pace.

[Brother Immolator]

Thanks El Phil. There is one that has used it. Good. Anyone else?

I my personal opinion is that it is mis-labeled as an air superiority fighter.

This. THIS 100 TIMES!

I have proxied it twice for what it is worth. Ill tell you that I wont replace my heavy weapons guys/platforms from it, but I agree with the mislabel.

The

Nephilim is so close to being just right. In my mind, it's all about

the missiles. If the missiles were strength 8 or str 6 and armorbane,

the Nephilim would seem perfectly priced to me. Even str 7 missiles

might make it worthwhile, though then I'd be wondering why the adeptus

mechanicus hadn't just put an autocannon on the thing instead of those

missiles.

Because its not a mechanicus design, its a DA techmarine jury rigged STC

Maybe the Nephilim should have had a pulpit-cupola so a guy could sit in it and fire a missile launcher.

Oh God-Emperor, anything but that!

Sorry to bring the heat bro, but that was the worst idea I heard this month

One

interesting wrinkle is the dogfighting rules. I haven't played with

them yet, but based on my reading of them, the seem like they may even

the playing field a little for flyers with only one good gun (like, say,

a Nephilim). On the other hand, I hate the idea of having to encourage

my friends to play with dogfighting rules so that my flyer can have a

better chance of doing something, rather than just encouraging their use

for the fun change of pace.

Every flyer gets boosted though, when you look at it from that prespective you are where you started.

[Syphid]

I've used the Dark Talon.  My gripe is that it's supposedly a weapon used to capture the Fallen, yet it performs so poorly against Chaos Space Marines!  It works best against shooty, low Initiative armies (Guard, Tau, Necrons) and anybody vulnerable to AP 5.   I rolled a full 6" scatter with the Stasis Bomb and missed the unit of Berzerkers I was aiming for, but they just ended up getting cut down by plasma fire anyways so why bother?

[Brother Immolator]

I've used the Dark Talon.  My gripe is that it's supposedly a weapon used to capture the Fallen, yet it performs so poorly against Chaos Space Marines!  It works best against shooty, low Initiative armies (Guard, Tau, Necrons) and anybody vulnerable to AP 5.   I rolled a full 6" scatter with the Stasis Bomb and missed the unit of Berzerkers I was aiming for, but they just ended up getting cut down by plasma fire anyways so why bother?

Well  honestly (and this comes from self experience proxying the thing, millenage may vary as they say), I have found that most of our tricks work best against chaos deamons, rather than chaos space marines.

 

The talon is good when you use your deathwing knights to cut down nasties such as a bloodthirster or slaanesh deamons. It just seems to work in that department for me. Deffo not an auto include, but it has its moments. Provided it survives enough to drop the thing.

[march10k]

Flakk devs, are ok. S7 really doesn't cut it against AV12, but works fine with AV11. I think a few heldrakes would like a word with you. They might be insulted by you calling them, "mostly harmless." Likewise, ignoring a SR full of death company probably isn't a great idea either.

 

~sigh~  That stupid drake keeps coming back like a broken record...If that's the only real argument people have for why they need to spend hundreds of points on something that's specifically and exclusively an air defense weapon, then I have to imagine that more than 1/2 of the games that they play are against armies with two or more heldrakes.  It's one unit in one army.  Hardly justification for selling out to air defense in an all-comers list.

 

As for stormravenloads of death company...even with the best air defense weaponry points can buy, your chances of shooting one down before it delivers its lethal cargo are slim to none.  Generally, when I've faced them, they've vomited pain all over me on their first turn on the board, and after that, I had more important things to do than chase the flier around the board.  Shooting them down would have been closing the barn door after they horse has escaped.

 

If you let the fear that you might face a SR or drake dictate that you drop a scoring unit for an air defense unit, or drop a plasma cannon for a SAM, you're weakening your list against ALL comers more than you're strengthening it against those occasional pains in the neck.  Now, if you're the sort to tailor your lists against each individual opponent, then none of this makes sense.  If I did that, I'd take air defense assets against certain people, too.  But since I only build all-comers lists, I find the threat from the skies to be too occasional and too limited (especially against deathwing!) to weaken myself elsewhere "just in case."

[Brother dean]

What March10k said!

 

I did say that I run Deathwing and AP3 from that vector strike doesnt scare me.  It's a max 4 hits per drake and another 4 autocannons shots at BS3, So two hits...   That will mathhammer out as 3 S7 wounds and 2 S8 wounds, usually around turn 3 or 4.  From 5 wounds I will lose 2 termies...  (its my dice luck)    That is assuming that at turn 3 or 4 I have unengaged squads to target...    The Helldrake is only one of the two good choices from the Chaos book.  If I am sitting on a pile of dead Noise Marines when the drake shows up I wont really care about it....   I can also say that because I run Chaos and know the limitations.

 

30 grots or Guardsmen scare me much more than one or three drakes.

[Brother Immolator]

What March10k said!

 

I did say that I run Deathwing and AP3 from that vector strike doesnt scare me. It's a max 4 hits per drake and another 4 autocannons shots at BS3, So two hits... That will mathhammer out as 3 S7 wounds and 2 S8 wounds, usually around turn 3 or 4. From 5 wounds I will lose 2 termies... (its my dice luck) That is assuming that at turn 3 or 4 I have unengaged squads to target... The Helldrake is only one of the two good choices from the Chaos book. If I am sitting on a pile of dead Noise Marines when the drake shows up I wont really care about it.... I can also say that because I run Chaos and know the limitations.

 

30 grots or Guardsmen scare me much more than one or three drakes.

 

Brother Dean, sorry in advance if it sounds a bit rude but...Not all of us run full deathwing lists.

 

And its not four hits max per drake, the template with good positioning and assuming a squad is spread into cover prior can roast a ten man squad. I ve seen it happen on occasion.

 

I am not saying its the best/broken unit ever but to discard it as a simple nuisance is a complete mistake IMHO.

 

I respect personal experience and our opinions always stem from such, but to consider ones experience as the ultimate truth/law that governs all our tables is at best a mistake at worst arrogance.

 

As an example I never had a problem with 30 grots. I always dealt with them in two turns max. To say though that such thing as a Grot tarpit doesn't exist and disregard your opinion as laughable or erroneous is a completely and utterly a misguided reaction.

[Brother dean]

No offence taken brother.  Merely clarifying my POV.  I am one of those advocating ignoring the drake and I thought it important to explain why (sorry if that didnt come across).  I do understand those who run Greenwing  and why they may look to the drake for a few casualties.  AP3 is scary but when I lose an entire squad because i bunched them (and I have lost those squads) I have only myself to blame....   I do not blame the über unit for my not taking steps to minimize it's impact.  Which is what march10k was getting at...    Do not succumb to the fallacy of defeating yourself before battle is even joined.  It sounds as tho the hype of the drake has defeated several...   

[IndigoJack]

 

 

Flakk devs, are ok. S7 really doesn't cut it against AV12, but works fine with AV11. I think a few heldrakes would like a word with you. They might be insulted by you calling them, "mostly harmless." Likewise, ignoring a SR full of death company probably isn't a great idea either.

~sigh~ That stupid drake keeps coming back like a broken record...If that's the only real argument people have for why they need to spend hundreds of points on something that's specifically and exclusively an air defense weapon, then I have to imagine that more than 1/2 of the games that they play are against armies with two or more heldrakes. It's one unit in one army. Hardly justification for selling out to air defense in an all-comers list.

My local shop is full of angsty chaos players that have waited years for a powerful codex. They most certainly spam them if they have the points. Additionally, if you play competitively, you need a way to handle heldrakes. The heldrake eats marines. Even a properly spread out squad can expect 6 casualties (3 from baleflamer, 3 from vector strike, and that's the minimum.) That's half a squad gone from just one unit. 3x of them will remove any AA you have that doesn't have an invul save the turn they show up. If you're playing in a competitive environment with 3+ armor and you don't have a heldrake plan you will lose. The biggest reason the heldrake is broken is because when you make a TAC list, one of the lists you have to worry about is triple drakes. Even two will do a fine job of wrecking anything in 3+ on the board.

As for stormravenloads of death company...even with the best air defense weaponry points can buy, your chances of shooting one down before it delivers its lethal cargo are slim to none. Generally, when I've faced them, they've vomited pain all over me on their first turn on the board, and after that, I had more important things to do than chase the flier around the board. Shooting them down would have been closing the barn door after they horse has escaped.

The odds of shooting it down with another storm raven with MM and LC is about 30%. Not exactly slim, but not great. But if you take into account that any result but a shaken (impossible with melta) or weapon destroyed will severly hamper (if not outright prevent) the odds of them assaulting out of it, and now making that deathstar useless doesn't seem like an impossible task with the right tools. Just having the capability to do so will make a competent opponent think twice about putting them in there.

If you let the fear that you might face a SR or drake dictate that you drop a scoring unit for an air defense unit, or drop a plasma cannon for a SAM, you're weakening your list against ALL comers more than you're strengthening it against those occasional pains in the neck. Now, if you're the sort to tailor your lists against each individual opponent, then none of this makes sense. If I did that, I'd take air defense assets against certain people, too. But since I only build all-comers lists, I find the threat from the skies to be too occasional and too limited (especially against deathwing!) to weaken myself elsewhere "just in case."

A take-all-comers list needs to be able to hand 3x drakes, since they are actually a something you stand a chance to face. I understand that your DW don't care about it, but the answer shouldn't be "play DW" as that further limits your choices in an army list(see last codex.) You're a competitive player as well, surely I would have thought you would understand the dangers power armor faces against heldrakes. I'm not worried about other flyers. Movement to avoid fire arcs, positioning and cover are all things that can be used to defend against them. The heldrake's baleflamer is a 360 torrent weapon and it can vector strike whatever it flies over. Those things become much less reliable if not useless in some cases against the heldrake. Reliable AA is needed to handle multiples of these. Simply ignoring them will not net PA armies wins.

[Brother Immolator]

No offence taken brother. Merely clarifying my POV. I am one of those advocating ignoring the drake and I thought it important to explain why (sorry if that didnt come across). I do understand those who run Greenwing and why they may look to the drake for a few casualties. AP3 is scary but when I lose an entire squad because i bunched them (and I have lost those squads) I have only myself to blame.... I do not blame the über unit for my not taking steps to minimize it's impact. Which is what march10k was getting at... Do not succumb to the fallacy of defeating yourself before battle is even joined. It sounds as tho the hype of the drake has defeated several...

Its not an uber unit, and certainly noone is going to concede to it.

But, it cannot be allowed to reign on the skies and pick its targets with leasure.

Though IndigoJack and I have many differing PoV in certain matters I stand by his assessment. If you want to have a chance your standard list must have something to deal with the things. Either that is named a defence line, missiles or ravenwing BKs, you need to squeeze anti air somewhere. A stormraven with death company I can handle. After all even if it discorges its cargo, said cargo will give a few bolter shots and then will be looking at me for a turn which will have every darn gun pointed at them.

Like it or not the drake is a special fairy and like all special fairies it requires special attention. Call us unlucky or stuborn for not fielding the entirety of the first company, but the drake is a threat that must be taken into account for the companies 2 to 10

EDIT: Also consider this: Taking it out or a two of them before they do what they want to do guarentees that more or less you deal a mortal blow to your opponent. If you see a duo of those then there is a 99,999% chance that your chaos heritic enemy, is going to focus all his chips on them, like a new player bets on his queen to win a chess match for him.

[Master Avoghai]

I think here guys we have 2 différent problems in the same topic : wether our flyers are balanced or not vs our other choices and wether the flyers IN GENERAL are balanced vs each other and the helldrake/necron spam problem.

 

 

Balanced vs our other choices :

 

Seems obvious but we all play with a limit of points and we have to choose and choice is renouncement.

 

It means that all our choices are in concurrence with each other and particularly with the choices occupying the same slot.

 

And in this environment our flyers are always the last choice. Whatever role you want to give them, you'll find units that do it better than them.

 

So no, nobody can say that the DA flyers are balanced vs other choices.

When you see that people prefer taking BK for light tank/AA firepower, when you see that people prefer taking dakka banner in crusader or multiple tactical squad against anti inf, and more important : when you see that people prefer paying for HQ + vet + flyer following the allies rules, you can't say that DA flyers are balanced vs the codex other choices.

 

Concerning the other flyer in general

 

The previous point find its source in this point : DA codex and allies rules provide better units than a nephilim/DT to face an opposition with flyer.

 

I'm not in the camp of people claiming that it's normal, because each armies should have weaknesses. In this case it's simple : to beat DA, take flyer? No, a weaknesses is you gain an advantage BUT you pay more. It's you have access to a type of weapon but lose the access to over weapon.

As a consequence, following this reasoning, the nephilim should be cheaper than what it is now because he provides no advantage rulewise.

Or if our flyers should be weak then we should have special AA ability to compensate.

It's just like the dwarfs in WHFB : they don't have spell but have the rules system to compensate.

 

And I also don't agree with those saying that we should ignore the drake spam or the necron moon spam... You want it or not : 40k will become a game with flyers. Tau will get one, eldar will get one etc etc. so you can't play with ignoring an issue that will appear to become common in a few months.

You have to think how you will deal an helldrake spam because you'll surely have to deal with a nightwing spam or a flyingnid spam (btw, try to ignore a bloodthirster that fly at first turn and move normally at turn 2... Don't tell me you will ignore it)

 

Drakes are broken, mostly because they have a 360 arc of fire and can recover HP. But you can deal with them with a shooting flying nid or an eldar nightwing or a raven with MM.

 

You can negate what you want but the fact is here : in a v6 who'll know a new era introducing skyfights our codex will force us to stay on the ground due to poor game design concerning our flyers.

 

Just a side note : I'm not the kind of person who criticize without proposing solutions, I see 2 very simple solutions.

 

1/ deleting the 360 arc of fire in the FAQ and give a 90 one to all type if weapon for the helldrake.

2/ give "rending" to the AMB against flyer and "heatdetectors" to the missiles = always use the rear armour against flyers. Also give the DT front weapon the "large blast" characteristics.

 

Those 2 sets of change may re-equilibrate the balance as it tempers the helldrake spam and also won't affect the nephilim abilities against ground tanks (so no advantage against standard troops)

[Upstartes]

GW FAQ'd the drake to GIVE it 360 FoF. I don't think they'll re-FAQ it any time soon.

 

I also don't think they'll add completely new rules to the Nephilim. At best they might errata the missiles to up the strength or AP, or maybe add Ordnance or Armorbane. However, that also seems quite unlikely. GW seems pretty content in most cases to shrug their shoulders & say to themselves, "yep. We botched that unit. We'll fix it next edition."

[BigGumbo]

Before we declare the Nephilim "botched", shouldn't we be bearing in mind the fact that most other flyers out there are holdovers from 5th Ed, when they were actually Fast Skimmers? Sure the Neph doesn't look like an air superiority fighter in the context of AV12 aerial opponents but, Heldrake aside, these AV12 opponents came into existence when they could be hit at normal BS rather than on a 6 by every heavy weapon there was. Can't we at least give a stay of execution until the relevant other Codexes have been brought up to 6th Ed date? If the Neph looked good now against flyers that, in the fulness of time, turn out to be downgraded significantly in terms of their survivability, then it would actually be overpowered - it is surely this context in which the botchedness or otherwise of our flyers ought to be judged. Of course, if said flyers remain as survivable then as they are now, then I'll agree that the Nephilim is not an air superiority fighter as advertised.

 

The other consideration is whether it is the Neph's rules that are wrong, or whether it's actually the "air superiority" label that was misapplied. It looks pretty handy as a ground attack aircraft to me (7 S6 and 3 rerollable S5 shots, hitting on a 2+ and causing Pinning? Yes, please.) and it's this role that I'll be using mine in, when I buy it shortly...

[bluepillredpill]

I have rolled out the Nephilim in my last two games, 1st game was against space wolves and I knew he didn't have any anti air support (ADL or allies) it did not bad against the PA marines which was the plan, 2nd game was in a 2v2 going up against dark eldar and Tau...worked perfect for taking out ground troops and managed to take down a flyer to boot when it got in behind it.

[march10k]

I'm not suggesting that baleflamers don't penetrate power armor. I'm suggesting that if you dedicate 1/6 of your points to air defense, it won't be enough to stop three drakes, but it will be enough to have you playing 1500 points versus 1800 if the enemy has no air assets. Air defense is so expensive and so limited in effectiveness that to ensure that you can stop three drakes in two turns or less, you have to sell out to air defense to a degree that cripples you against anything else.

 

/edit/ If only hydras had interceptor...EVERYONE would take IG allies...

[Upstartes]

There is merit to the idea that the Neph may turn out to be about average after every codex gets a 6th edition update. However, that doesn't make me want to buy one now.

 

Furthermore, I still find the missiles to be botched under any circumstances. The Avenger Mega Bolter puts out 5 shots at the same strength and longer range than the blackswords. That just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. The blackswords are worse than any kind of missile the marines field - possibly any missile in the game. And they are limited-shot items. I just feel that one-shot missiles ought to have some kick to them, even if you're getting 6 instead of the 4 that seem common on other imperial flyers. I seriously don't understand how a designer who ever plays the game looked at those missiles and thought, "yep. That's the right power level."

[Master Avoghai]

@ biggumbo : that's also what I think and why my proposals only apply to flyers. The Nephilim is good for hunting light tanks. We shouldn't alter this. The only problem is its cost : I can find better light tank hunters in the codex for the same cost.

 

@ Upsartes : I don't think that modifying the errata about drakes is a major issue. That's what errata are made for, and since it's an issue introduced by a modifiable PDF it's even easier to correct.

I think that indeed it's more complicated to modify the weapons special rules. However don't forget that GW already modified entries (for ex the vets weapons limitations) so IMO it's not that difficult to add a special rule like armourbane...(or rending against flyer for the AMB)

[Brother Immolator]

Before we declare the Nephilim "botched", shouldn't we be bearing in mind the fact that most other flyers out there are holdovers from 5th Ed, when they were actually Fast Skimmers? Sure the Neph doesn't look like an air superiority fighter in the context of AV12 aerial opponents but, Heldrake aside, these AV12 opponents came into existence when they could be hit at normal BS rather than on a 6 by every heavy weapon there was. Can't we at least give a stay of execution until the relevant other Codexes have been brought up to 6th Ed date? If the Neph looked good now against flyers that, in the fulness of time, turn out to be downgraded significantly in terms of their survivability, then it would actually be overpowered - it is surely this context in which the botchedness or otherwise of our flyers ought to be judged. Of course, if said flyers remain as survivable then as they are now, then I'll agree that the Nephilim is not an air superiority fighter as advertised.

 

The other consideration is whether it is the Neph's rules that are wrong, or whether it's actually the "air superiority" label that was misapplied. It looks pretty handy as a ground attack aircraft to me (7 S6 and 3 rerollable S5 shots, hitting on a 2+ and causing Pinning? Yes, please.) and it's this role that I'll be using mine in, when I buy it shortly...

I would have agreed with your train of thought, save the fact that the air supplament (forgot the name) didnt do anything to recalibrate flyers. In fact if you use it, they become even better.

 

So I don't foresee a calibration in the new codices. OFC our miniature provider is anything but rational so you never know, but I wont hold my breath.

[Lysere]

 

Before we declare the Nephilim "botched", shouldn't we be bearing in mind the fact that most other flyers out there are holdovers from 5th Ed, when they were actually Fast Skimmers? Sure the Neph doesn't look like an air superiority fighter in the context of AV12 aerial opponents but, Heldrake aside, these AV12 opponents came into existence when they could be hit at normal BS rather than on a 6 by every heavy weapon there was. Can't we at least give a stay of execution until the relevant other Codexes have been brought up to 6th Ed date? If the Neph looked good now against flyers that, in the fulness of time, turn out to be downgraded significantly in terms of their survivability, then it would actually be overpowered - it is surely this context in which the botchedness or otherwise of our flyers ought to be judged. Of course, if said flyers remain as survivable then as they are now, then I'll agree that the Nephilim is not an air superiority fighter as advertised.

 

The other consideration is whether it is the Neph's rules that are wrong, or whether it's actually the "air superiority" label that was misapplied. It looks pretty handy as a ground attack aircraft to me (7 S6 and 3 rerollable S5 shots, hitting on a 2+ and causing Pinning? Yes, please.) and it's this role that I'll be using mine in, when I buy it shortly...

I would have agreed with your train of thought, save the fact that the air supplament (forgot the name) didnt do anything to recalibrate flyers. In fact if you use it, they become even better.

 

So I don't foresee a calibration in the new codices. OFC our miniature provider is anything but rational so you never know, but I wont hold my breath.

 

It made Storm Talons cheaper so they went from useless to worth taking once in awhile.

[elphilo]

 

 

 

 

Before we declare the Nephilim "botched", shouldn't we be bearing in mind the fact that most other flyers out there are holdovers from 5th Ed, when they were actually Fast Skimmers? Sure the Neph doesn't look like an air superiority fighter in the context of AV12 aerial opponents but, Heldrake aside, these AV12 opponents came into existence when they could be hit at normal BS rather than on a 6 by every heavy weapon there was. Can't we at least give a stay of execution until the relevant other Codexes have been brought up to 6th Ed date? If the Neph looked good now against flyers that, in the fulness of time, turn out to be downgraded significantly in terms of their survivability, then it would actually be overpowered - it is surely this context in which the botchedness or otherwise of our flyers ought to be judged. Of course, if said flyers remain as survivable then as they are now, then I'll agree that the Nephilim is not an air superiority fighter as advertised.

 

The other consideration is whether it is the Neph's rules that are wrong, or whether it's actually the "air superiority" label that was misapplied. It looks pretty handy as a ground attack aircraft to me (7 S6 and 3 rerollable S5 shots, hitting on a 2+ and causing Pinning? Yes, please.) and it's this role that I'll be using mine in, when I buy it shortly...

I would have agreed with your train of thought, save the fact that the air supplament (forgot the name) didnt do anything to recalibrate flyers. In fact if you use it, they become even better.

 

So I don't foresee a calibration in the new codices. OFC our miniature provider is anything but rational so you never know, but I wont hold my breath.

 

 

 

It made Storm Talons cheaper so they went from useless to worth taking once in awhile.

 

 

It also got rid of Scout and Deep Strike on all the flyers. Which is helpful, but not as helpful as a points increase for the more broken of the 5th edition flyers. . . .

[BigGumbo]

 

 

 

Before we declare the Nephilim "botched", shouldn't we be bearing in mind the fact that most other flyers out there are holdovers from 5th Ed, when they were actually Fast Skimmers? Sure the Neph doesn't look like an air superiority fighter in the context of AV12 aerial opponents but, Heldrake aside, these AV12 opponents came into existence when they could be hit at normal BS rather than on a 6 by every heavy weapon there was. Can't we at least give a stay of execution until the relevant other Codexes have been brought up to 6th Ed date? If the Neph looked good now against flyers that, in the fulness of time, turn out to be downgraded significantly in terms of their survivability, then it would actually be overpowered - it is surely this context in which the botchedness or otherwise of our flyers ought to be judged. Of course, if said flyers remain as survivable then as they are now, then I'll agree that the Nephilim is not an air superiority fighter as advertised.

 

The other consideration is whether it is the Neph's rules that are wrong, or whether it's actually the "air superiority" label that was misapplied. It looks pretty handy as a ground attack aircraft to me (7 S6 and 3 rerollable S5 shots, hitting on a 2+ and causing Pinning? Yes, please.) and it's this role that I'll be using mine in, when I buy it shortly...

I would have agreed with your train of thought, save the fact that the air supplament (forgot the name) didnt do anything to recalibrate flyers. In fact if you use it, they become even better.

 

So I don't foresee a calibration in the new codices. OFC our miniature provider is anything but rational so you never know, but I wont hold my breath.

 

 

It made Storm Talons cheaper so they went from useless to worth taking once in awhile.

 

It also got rid of Scout and Deep Strike on all the flyers. Which is helpful, but not as helpful as a points increase for the more broken of the 5th edition flyers. . . .

But ... if the overarching objective of GW is to produce balanced Codexes going forwards, which seems to be the general consensus based on the 6th Ed Codexes published to date, then the one thing that they definitely shouldn't do is unilaterally amend costs/capabilities of flyers en bloc, without addressing the other units in each affected Codex, as this would be (further) unbalancing.

 

GW seems to have a policy of not amending points costs etc outside Codex updates, which we benefited from for a while with our free Storm Shields and cheap Cyclones so we ought to be less quick to moan when others benefit from it with their apparently undercosted units. If those currently undercosted units remain undercosted/overpowered after the relevant Codex has been updated, then we'll have a reasonable grievance. Until then: patience and optimism, brothers.

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

 

Before we declare the Nephilim "botched", shouldn't we be bearing in mind the fact that most other flyers out there are holdovers from 5th Ed, when they were actually Fast Skimmers? Sure the Neph doesn't look like an air superiority fighter in the context of AV12 aerial opponents but, Heldrake aside, these AV12 opponents came into existence when they could be hit at normal BS rather than on a 6 by every heavy weapon there was. Can't we at least give a stay of execution until the relevant other Codexes have been brought up to 6th Ed date? If the Neph looked good now against flyers that, in the fulness of time, turn out to be downgraded significantly in terms of their survivability, then it would actually be overpowered - it is surely this context in which the botchedness or otherwise of our flyers ought to be judged. Of course, if said flyers remain as survivable then as they are now, then I'll agree that the Nephilim is not an air superiority fighter as advertised.

 

The other consideration is whether it is the Neph's rules that are wrong, or whether it's actually the "air superiority" label that was misapplied. It looks pretty handy as a ground attack aircraft to me (7 S6 and 3 rerollable S5 shots, hitting on a 2+ and causing Pinning? Yes, please.) and it's this role that I'll be using mine in, when I buy it shortly...

I would have agreed with your train of thought, save the fact that the air supplament (forgot the name) didnt do anything to recalibrate flyers. In fact if you use it, they become even better.

 

So I don't foresee a calibration in the new codices. OFC our miniature provider is anything but rational so you never know, but I wont hold my breath.

 

 

It made Storm Talons cheaper so they went from useless to worth taking once in awhile.

 

It also got rid of Scout and Deep Strike on all the flyers. Which is helpful, but not as helpful as a points increase for the more broken of the 5th edition flyers. . . .

That happened in a FAQ prior to the release of the supplement, its only natural to be included.

[elphilo]

That happened in a FAQ prior to the release of the supplement, its only natural to be included.

Not really, the FAQ was in response to the compendium's release.

But ... if the overarching objective of GW is to produce balanced Codexes going forwards, which seems to be the general consensus based on the 6th Ed Codexes published to date, then the one thing that they definitely shouldn't do is unilaterally amend costs/capabilities of flyers en bloc, without addressing the other units in each affected Codex, as this would be (further) unbalancing.

GW seems to have a policy of not amending points costs etc outside Codex updates, which we benefited from for a while with our free Storm Shields and cheap Cyclones so we ought to be less quick to moan when others benefit from it with their apparently undercosted units. If those currently undercosted units remain undercosted/overpowered after the relevant Codex has been updated, then we'll have a reasonable grievance. Until then: patience and optimism, brothers.

You're right. Thats why we still have to deal with really good 5th edition flyers compared to most meh 6th edition flyers. But GW could (and probably should have) raised the points on the Vendetta, or not made it a squadron. Its probably the best flyer currently. And the fact that you can have 9 only take up 3 slots is a tad much. There is NO competition between our flyers and the Vendetta. The Vendetta will most likely blow ours out of the sky every game. GW had a chance to balance the 5th edition flyers with a band aid until their respective codices came out but decided it was only prudent to remove Deep Strike and Scout. While I understand your point of mess with one thing you ruin the balance in the rest. But honestly, how many Guard lists do you see not running them? They are just that good and should be toned down. I feel other than their flyers IG are actually in a really good place and tweaking their flyer wouldn't mess their codex up as much. Now tweaking the necron dedicated transport flyer, your argument is valid because they go hand and hand (being a dedicated transport and all. Also AV13 spam is a tad bit scarier to me than flyer spam, but that is just me ).

Oh and not changing price/effectivness outside of a Codex release, I point you to the Chaos FAQ (which lowered the cost of the Hellbrute. It was only 5 measely points, but it sets a precedent) and the BRB FAQ (which changed Paladins and Ork Nob Mobs to non-characters). The latter changed how people play their armies entirely. While yes the codices weren't made with 6th edition in mind, its still a major game changer and also sets another precedent. That GW isn't afraid of stepping in and saying this is a bit too much.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, with the release speed of the 6th edition codices we'll hopefully see these flyer issues fixed for the better

[IndigoJack]

Oh and not changing price/effectivness outside of a Codex release, I point you to the Chaos FAQ (which lowered the cost of the Hellbrute. It was only 5 measely points, but it sets a precedent) and the BRB FAQ (which changed Paladins and Ork Nob Mobs to non-characters). The latter changed how people play their armies entirely. While yes the codices weren't made with 6th edition in mind, its still a major game changer and also sets another precedent. That GW isn't afraid of stepping in and saying this is a bit too much.Anyway, it doesn't matter, with the release speed of the 6th edition codices we'll hopefully see these flyer issues fixed for the better

The price on the helbrute was corrected to match the point value of the Spanish version. It was an editing correction rather than a rebalancing (imagine that.) to my knowledge, GW hasnt adjusted the point value of a unit after a codexea release for several editions (i believe it was done in fourth last.) however, GW has been getting better about rebalancing things after release, like blast masters being allowed for very 5 noise marines rather than 10. This is what fuels my hope that someday DA will get a better version, or a cheaper version of the nephilim.