Dark Talon/Nephilim Jetfighter

[Upstartes]

The more I think about it, the more I think I'll eventually own a Nephilim. I like the look and idea of them, but can't justify spending the money right now. But some day I'll come into some birthday money or just not have anything else I want to buy, and I'll look at the Nephilim and think, "man, that sure does look cool..."

[Master Avoghai]

 

 This is what fuels my hope that someday DA will get a better version, or a cheaper version of the nephilim.

Actually I don't see how point costs modification would solve the problem. Unless a dramatic points drop...

 

Again, to fullfil a role of light tank hunter, the nephilim suffers from the concurrence of RAS with double melta, RWBK, dread with dual autocannon etc etc... all cost less or are more effective in other areas of the game or have additionnal rules that help them performing better. And they also cost less moneywise...

 

The only solution to give attraction to Nephilim is to give him a role those coices may not perform well, and guess what? This is the role he's supposed to have : flyer hunter.

 

Believe me : unless you bring the cost to 100pts, you'll never see a nephilim or a DT on a table. If you give armour bane/rending to the nephilim weapons and large blast to the dark talon cannon, I can bet you'll see more of them.

[IndigoJack]

 

 

 This is what fuels my hope that someday DA will get a better version, or a cheaper version of the nephilim.

Actually I don't see how point costs modification would solve the problem. Unless a dramatic points drop...

 

Again, to fullfil a role of light tank hunter, the nephilim suffers from the concurrence of RAS with double melta, RWBK, dread with dual autocannon etc etc... all cost less or are more effective in other areas of the game or have additionnal rules that help them performing better. And they also cost less moneywise...

 

The only solution to give attraction to Nephilim is to give him a role those coices may not perform well, and guess what? This is the role he's supposed to have : flyer hunter.

 

Believe me : unless you bring the cost to 100pts, you'll never see a nephilim or a DT on a table. If you give armour bane/rending to the nephilim weapons and large blast to the dark talon cannon, I can bet you'll see more of them.

 

 

I'd use the nephilim if it is was 140-150. Maybe not competitively, but it would see much more use in my games than it does now. In my ideal world, the missiles would become S7 and the mega bolter would be rending. Barring that, I'd settle for S8 AP2 missiles. I would pay 180 pts for that. I might be gritting my teeth when I do it, but I would do it. This is really just wish listing though, so I'll just keep waiting for that FAQ that's going to fix everything I don't like...

[Lysere]

 

 

 

 This is what fuels my hope that someday DA will get a better version, or a cheaper version of the nephilim.

Actually I don't see how point costs modification would solve the problem. Unless a dramatic points drop...

 

Again, to fullfil a role of light tank hunter, the nephilim suffers from the concurrence of RAS with double melta, RWBK, dread with dual autocannon etc etc... all cost less or are more effective in other areas of the game or have additionnal rules that help them performing better. And they also cost less moneywise...

 

The only solution to give attraction to Nephilim is to give him a role those coices may not perform well, and guess what? This is the role he's supposed to have : flyer hunter.

 

Believe me : unless you bring the cost to 100pts, you'll never see a nephilim or a DT on a table. If you give armour bane/rending to the nephilim weapons and large blast to the dark talon cannon, I can bet you'll see more of them.

 

 

I'd use the nephilim if it is was 140-150. Maybe not competitively, but it would see much more use in my games than it does now. In my ideal world, the missiles would become S7 and the mega bolter would be rending. Barring that, I'd settle for S8 AP2 missiles. I would pay 180 pts for that. I might be gritting my teeth when I do it, but I would do it. This is really just wish listing though, so I'll just keep waiting for that FAQ that's going to fix everything I don't like...

 

Just like BT is still waiting for the FAQ that says we all get frag grenades. It'll take a few years I'm sure.

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

Just like BT is still waiting for the FAQ that says we all get frag grenades. It'll take a few years I'm sure.

Yours will take a new codex before a new faq, the time draws nigh.

[elphilo]

The price on the helbrute was corrected to match the point value of the Spanish version. It was an editing correction rather than a rebalancing (imagine that.) to my knowledge, GW hasnt adjusted the point value of a unit after a codexea release for several editions (i believe it was done in fourth last.) however, GW has been getting better about rebalancing things after release, like blast masters being allowed for very 5 noise marines rather than 10. This is what fuels my hope that someday DA will get a better version, or a cheaper version of the nephilim.

Oh well then that unit is out the window. But I'll just have to point you in the direction of the Compendium itself, because it lowered the price of the storm talon

[IndigoJack]

The price on the helbrute was corrected to match the point value of the Spanish version. It was an editing correction rather than a rebalancing (imagine that.) to my knowledge, GW hasnt adjusted the point value of a unit after a codexea release for several editions (i believe it was done in fourth last.) however, GW has been getting better about rebalancing things after release, like blast masters being allowed for very 5 noise marines rather than 10. This is what fuels my hope that someday DA will get a better version, or a cheaper version of the nephilim.

Oh well then that unit is out the window. But I'll just have to point you in the direction of the Compendium itself, because it lowered the price of the storm talon

Doh, you are correct. I'm pretty sure I even mentioned that earlier in the thread I guess my ray of hope just got a bit brighter!

[MadMek83]

Nephilim would be nice if price would drop 20-25P. Heck I'd settle rending on megal bolter or making it or missiles s7. But currently due my bad dice throwing, I keep my TLLC, much more sure fire against av12.

[Xarga]

I really, really want to love the Nephilim but i just can't. It's too overcosted and doesn't really do either Anti-Air, Anti-Tank or Anti-Infantry as well as other options in the codex. If it dropped by at least 20 points and it's missiles buffed to S7 it would at least be considerable. I also wish it had Ariel Ace instead of Strafing Run, it makes far more sense to me.

[RayJ]

Out of curiosity, have any of you who claim the Nephilim sucks at anti-air tries using the nephilim with the Burning the Skies rules (dogfighting & aces). I've done a little bit of testing with those, and I've found the nephilim much better under those scenarios when equipped with a lascannon.

 

I understand it's an optional ruleset, but both books came out very close to each other, and I would not be surprised if that's where it's label of "air superiority fighter" comes from: playtesting of both rulesets together.

 

That being said, an upgrade to the 1-shot missiles is an appropriate course of action for standard games not utilizing Burning the Skies.

[meeper]

I feel like the Nephilim's missile lock rule could have been modified to make it more valuable. Like rolling a 3+ to see if you hit the vehicle's rear armor.

 

The blacksword missiles seem like they could have been the distinguishing characteristic of the fighter but were left to be nothing more than something to fill up the wings with.  

 

They could have made it more like the razorwing fighter, make it cheap but give it the option to buy missiles.

 

Sigh, one can dream... 

[Brother dean]

Well the Storm Spud with TLAC and TL Lascannon is still 140points.  I agree that the missiles arent worth 40 points but it isnt THAT unreasonable.

[meeper]

I dont think we disagree on the usefulness of the nephilim. I think its a fantastic unit with its mega bolter and bs5 on ground targets. Its sort of like a "back scratcher" for those hard to reach areas like mortars or devastator squads.

[Master Sheol]

The main problem about DA flyers is that NJF dhould be AA and its better at Ground attack, while the DT should be Ground Attack and instead is a support/debuff Unit...

and they are both Too pricey points and model wise...

considering that tau flyers showed us that the points are correct in this new flyer trend (and i wait confirmation from eldar dex Too) the main problem is to give to both flyers a better equipment/rules to fullfill the roles they are designed to...

[Mattias]

Well the Storm Spud with TLAC and TL Lascannon is still 140points.  I agree that the missiles arent worth 40 points but it isnt THAT unreasonable.

 

This is not really a fair comparison as the TLAC is clearly superior to the TLHB, a more realistic comparison is TLAC/TLHB at 110pts vs AMB/TLHB at 180pts, giving a point difference of 70pts, with everything else being fairly similar this gives the missiles a cost of at least 10pts each, which for a single shot S6 AP4 missile is excessive. If the missiles were an optional upgrade at that cost I could not see anyone taking them.

[Master Sheol]

The TLAC is better than the AMB... And the ST has only 2HP while NJF has 3.

I can guess that the NJF missiles are about 6/7 points each that is still too much being so weak.

[Master Avoghai]

But before making comparisons between nephilim and storm talon to see if the cost is fair, we should first see if the ST cost is fair...

Because all I see here is that both ST and Nephilim are not worth their costs

[elphilo]

But before making comparisons between nephilim and storm talon to see if the cost is fair, we should first see if the ST cost is fair...

Because all I see here is that both ST and Nephilim are not worth their costs

Where did you hear the Storm Talon isn't worth it? From what I understand its a must have in a lot of space marine armies, especially now since its points was lowered. The only downside is its 2 HP instead of 3; But with TLAC and TLHB base, I could get over that fact.

 

Damn you Polythemus, the more I think about it the more I want to give the Jetfighter another chance. :P :D

[IndigoJack]

IMO, the storm talon is one of the few fliers that's priced appropriately. It's a cheap AA flyer with a decent amount of fire power. Really, the only flyers that should be priced as high as a nephilim are flyers with transport capacity (and the heldrake, but that's because of how it removes almost all randomness from it's shooting attack).

[Master Avoghai]

@Elphilo : I'm not saying it's not. I just wonder... By reading the arguments I'm just wondering...

 

The main difference is the cost... The 40 pts difference for useless missile and one HP is too much. Particularly when you see the ST has 4 rending shots and the nephilim doesn't have a single one...

 

+ what I think is the excess of weapons. The talon is well armed and actually doesn't need more. Adding more weapons would raise the cost of the vehicle without adding efficiency.

 

I feel it's the case for the Nerfilim.(or the dark talon).

They added useless missiles, they added retentless hunter, etc etc. all of that brought nothing to the vehicle but justified a cost raise comparing to the storm talon.

 

The ratio cost/use is not a straight line it's a curve with a top point... I think that the DA flyers are in the descending part of this curve

[elphilo]

@Elphilo : I'm not saying it's not. I just wonder... By reading the arguments I'm just wondering...

 

The main difference is the cost... The 40 pts difference for useless missile and one HP is too much. Particularly when you see the ST has 4 rending shots and the nephilim doesn't have a single one...

 

+ what I think is the excess of weapons. The talon is well armed and actually doesn't need more. Adding more weapons would raise the cost of the vehicle without adding efficiency.

 

I feel it's the case for the Nerfilim.(or the dark talon).

They added useless missiles, they added retentless hunter, etc etc. all of that brought nothing to the vehicle but justified a cost raise comparing to the storm talon.

 

The ratio cost/use is not a straight line it's a curve with a top point... I think that the DA flyers are in the descending part of this curve

Totally agree. I feel if the Jetfighter was brought closer to the Talon and added an AC it would be a contender. Right now it sits at its okay but I would rather take something else.

 

Though I'm going to give it another chance, run it with another one to see how it works.