Bolter Storm Raven?

[templargdt]

Hey Guys, was wondering if anyone had tried a mass bolter SR (TL Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon, side bolters and psybolts)?

 

Looking it over I think it would actually do fairly well.  It's a lot of anti-infantry and massed STR 5/6/7 which can still do okay against light armor. 

[IndigoJack]

I've used it before, but it was agianst orks, so of course it rocked! TBH, I think the MM is better than the HB. AP1 on a flyer is awesome, and add in the fact that it gets 2d6 at >12"? You're gonna start putting the serious hurt on other flyers.

[Vash]

If you intend to hunt infantry with the Raven, of course that setup is great. But make sure the rest of your list is covering the areas the normal setup of ravens is suppose to fill.

 

Because, anti infantry we have enough of on the ground. Psycannons, psybolts, henchmen etc. 

[number6]

If I remember the points costs correctly, your proposed stormraven loadout is 255 pts. Which is exactly the cost of a land raider.

 

I don't think it's worth it. I'd rather have the land raider for those points. Spend 5 pts on psybolt ammo, and your land raider is only a shade less effective at shooting down a flyer than your dakka stormraven! But it's considerably more survivable and a safer assault unit delivery mechanism to boot.

 

I also agree that the TLMM in the hull is pretty much mandatory. This is one of the very few ways to get AP 1 weaponry into our army lists; invaluable tactical option to have on hand. And rather than spending extra points on psybolts to upgrade a turret assault cannon (and/or hurricane bolter sponson), I'd sooner keep the free TLLC on the turret.

 

Keeping the stormraven cheap as chips strikes me as the only sensible way to field them. As soon as you start plunking points into them, I start questioning why you're not fielding land raiders instead.

 

I mean, the stormraven can double as flyer defense, but outside of the doom scythe, there are no flyers that can even scratch the paint on a land raider. Food for thought....

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

 

I mean, the stormraven can double as flyer defense, but outside of the doom scythe, there are no flyers that can even scratch the paint on a land raider. Food for thought.... 

 

 

Lol, IG would like a word with you. They can field two Flyers in a squadron for around the same price as the LR, and definitely glance it to death (9 x lascannons). 

 

I wouldn't take either. LR's are just too much of a point sink, HP4 sounds like a lot but you just don't have enough other stuff to make it work. 

As for the dakka Raven, yeah its amusing against non-Marines. However, its far better utilised as a fast anti-tank gunship than an anti-infantry gunship. We already bring a tonne of psycannon and storm bolter to the field in most lists, extra anti-infantry isn't needed. What is needed in long-range or fast anti-tank, which otherwise only Allies or the PsyDread really bring. Twin multi-melta and twin-lascannon works for me, it usually means a dead tank every turn unless I roll terrible for damage. 

[IndigoJack]

Here's my argument, what does it do when all the tanks are dead? This is a realistic scenario these days.From 12" away, even marines are going to feel the heat of a TL psycannon, 6x TL bolters, and a TL MM. The SR has a big threat range already as a flyer, so 24" guns (12" for melta range) don't really bother it. It still works for AA/AT with the MM and psycannon.

 

It has a few advantages over the LRC as well, the biggest one being skyfire.

 

I'm not saying it's the only option, or even the best, but it has more than a few things going for it.

[IndigoJack]

 

 

 

I mean, the stormraven can double as flyer defense, but outside of the doom scythe, there are no flyers that can even scratch the paint on a land raider. Food for thought.... 

 

 

 

Lol, IG would like a word with you. They can field two Flyers in a squadron for around the same price as the LR, and definitely glance it to death (9 x lascannons). 

Bah, forgot to add this.

 

2x vendettas is only 6 lascannons, and at BS3 it's going to take them a few turns to wear AV14 down, even if the guns are twin-linked. Honestly, I'd be more afraid the MM on a SR.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

 

2x vendettas is only 6 lascannons, and at BS3 it's going to take them a few turns to wear AV14 down, even if the guns are twin-linked. Honestly, I'd be more afraid the MM on a SR. 

 

 

Herp, forgot, I was thinking of the usual triple Vendetta squadron. Still 6 lascannons has good odds to one-shot your LR, or glance it to death. But yeah, multi-melta inside melta range is pretty much guranteed kill on your LR. 

[aekold]

I have yet to see a land raider destroy a hell drake in a single turn, while a stormraven with MM and psybolt assault cannons has a decent chance.

[number6]

Two vendettas have excellent odds to poke a few holes in a land raider, but not good odds to destroy it. They have much better odds to destroy virtually any other vehicle in a single salvo, including other flyers like the storm raven.

Melta weapons (or other AP 1 anti-tank weapons like railguns) ... yeah. They have good odds to one-shot dead your land raider.

My point was just this: if you're willing to spend land raider-sized points on a stormraven, you really should just get the land raider. It's all but immune to flyers -- and fighting other flyers is one of the few good reasons to take a stormraven these days -- and so for those points it is, IMHO, a superior choice.

All this further assumes you care about assault transport capability as well. 'Cause if you don't, why would you ever EVER take a storm raven? It's just too many points to be useful purely as a gunship, no matter what weapons you choose to put on it. Take more psycannons, or a pair of psydreads, or henchmen units, ... or beef up your allies with those points instead!

Here's my argument, what does it do when all the tanks are dead?

In my current experience, I almost never kill all the tanks. I'm still facing highly mechanized forces 9 times out of 10. (Or a lot of MCs if the vehicle count is low or entirely absent.) But in those rare cases where I don't really need melta or lascannon weapons, the stormraven is a great late game objective denier. Knowing that you can throw a big ass piece of terrain into the midst of the enemy ranks to cause problems is always a useful thing to have.

[IndigoJack]

Two vendettas have excellent odds to poke a few holes in a land raider, but not good odds to destroy it. They have much better odds to destroy virtually any other vehicle in a single salvo, including other flyers like the storm raven.

Melta weapons (or other AP 1 anti-tank weapons like railguns) ... yeah. They have good odds to one-shot dead your land raider.

My point was just this: if you're willing to spend land raider-sized points on a stormraven, you really should just get the land raider. It's all but immune to flyers -- and fighting other flyers is one of the few good reasons to take a stormraven these days -- and so for those points it is, IMHO, a superior choice.

All this further assumes you care about assault transport capability as well. 'Cause if you don't, why would you ever EVER take a storm raven? It's just too many points to be useful purely as a gunship, no matter what weapons you choose to put on it. Take more psycannons, or a pair of psydreads, or henchmen units, ... or beef up your allies with those points instead!

It's gunship that can reliably hit targets and doesn't need to pray for 6s to do so. I'm not disagreeing, I keep cheap acolytes in there for late game objective grabbers, but as a flyer for AA, PotMS, TL-MM, and whatever else you've brought makes it awesome at shooting things in the air, something a LRC just can't do effectively.

Here's my argument, what does it do when all the tanks are dead?

In my current experience, I almost never kill all the tanks. I'm still facing highly mechanized forces 9 times out of 10. (Or a lot of MCs if the vehicle count is low or entirely absent.) But in those rare cases where I don't really need melta or lascannon weapons, the stormraven is a great late game objective denier. It is also the best vehicle for tank shocks ever invented thanks to it's sheer size. Knowing that you can throw a big ass piece of terrain into the midst of the enemy ranks to cause problems is always a useful thing to have.

I see why like the MM/LC version, it seems to work well for you. I face a large variety of forces, the hurricane bolter, MM, AC version w/ psybolts is just great at everything. The bolters can even be used to glance AV11/10. Obviously not for everyone, but it does work.

The SR can't tank shock though. The problem being that the SR isn't a tank.

[Lysere]

 

Two vendettas have excellent odds to poke a few holes in a land raider, but not good odds to destroy it. They have much better odds to destroy virtually any other vehicle in a single salvo, including other flyers like the storm raven.

 

Melta weapons (or other AP 1 anti-tank weapons like railguns) ... yeah. They have good odds to one-shot dead your land raider.

 

My point was just this: if you're willing to spend land raider-sized points on a stormraven, you really should just get the land raider. It's all but immune to flyers -- and fighting other flyers is one of the few good reasons to take a stormraven these days -- and so for those points it is, IMHO, a superior choice.

 

All this further assumes you care about assault transport capability as well. 'Cause if you don't, why would you ever EVER take a storm raven? It's just too many points to be useful purely as a gunship, no matter what weapons you choose to put on it. Take more psycannons, or a pair of psydreads, or henchmen units, ... or beef up your allies with those points instead!

It's gunship that can reliably hit targets and doesn't need to pray for 6s to do so. I'm not disagreeing, I keep cheap acolytes in there for late game objective grabbers, but as a flyer for AA, PotMS, TL-MM, and whatever else you've brought makes it awesome at shooting things in the air, something a LRC just can't do effectively.

 

Lol, my Land Raider Crusader would to have a word with you about anti-air effectiveness. Given that it has shot down more storm ravens with it's multi-melta than our local blood angels storm raven.

 

Also keep in mind that at that price point a 10-15 man loota squad can shred your storm raven, while they could never even glance a LRC. Also see Hydras, Quad Guns, Flakk Missiles, Nephilims, and other S6-7 weapons.

[IndigoJack]

Lol, my Land Raider Crusader would to have a word with you about anti-air effectiveness. Given that it has shot down more storm ravens with it's multi-melta than our local blood angels storm raven.'

Sounds like a statistical outlier to me and not something that can be relied upon.

 

Also keep in mind that at that price point a 10-15 man loota squad can shred your storm raven, while they could never even glance a LRC. Also see Hydras, Quad Guns, Flakk Missiles, Nephilims, and other S6-7 weapons.

fliers and land raiders are apples and oranges. Lootas one of the few units that are unintentionally awesome at AA. A five man tac squad with combi-melta and meltagun stand a better chance of hurting your land raider than they do a flyer. Different units for different purposes. S6 and S7 are not really things to fear with AV12 unless it's massed. Lootas can do it (as you mentioned,) necrons can do it, and not many others can really bring the firepower necessary. Flakk missiles sound great, but are expensive and usually not taken in a number that allows you to actually be effective against AV12. If you did bring enough flakks, your army is probably suffering in other areas.

 

 

Another thing to consider when comparing the LRC to the SR is force organization. If your taking a LRC, you're using up slots for psyfleman and NDKs, where as the SR is using up slots for interceptors (who fields 3 units of those?)

[IK Viper]

A humble observation from a BA player who runs 2 Ravens in most competative games becasue if you cannot kill Helldrakes in the current meta, anything not in TDA is going to get roasted if you bump into a Chaos SM player.  The Twl MM is a must take, there is no better weapon at killing other flyers (except other SR's because of Cerimite Plating)  The turret weapon is probalby a toss up, I use the Twl Las Can so that I can reach across the board and deliver fire even if I choose to skim my board edge to avoid vector strikes or to get cover against Interceptor shots, the Twl Ast. Can does not give that flexability (though I do not have the option to take psybolts either).  I used to run my ravens empty and naked simply to kill AV and Heavy Infantry, but once all that is killed you have a 200 point vehicle that can kill the crap out of 3 MEQ a turn... a bit of a waste in my opinion.  Against Orks or Nids a "Sniper Raven" is less then useless :-(    For 30 points you can take Hurricane Bolters that will make it a legitimate light infantry threat.  I don't know about you but I certainly would spend 30 points for 6 twin linked bolters that move that fast, and it adds versitility to the unit.  A SR has the speed to get behind ADL's and  mow through chaff troops that a LRC would never be able to flank (thus granting a 4+ cover save from the ADL).  Also the SR is up very high and thus is great at focus firing units behing an ADL that are not actually obscured, 

 

To me, if you are going to play competativly with a PA codex right now, you must be able to atleast challange a Helldrake list.  The option to have Skyfire, that much speed, and the same transport compacity (or pretty close), make it alot better then a LR as an attack gunship/ transport for a cheap scoring unit.

 

That said, If you want to deliver a CC unit into the teeth of the enemy line the LR is alot better and will reliably get your expensive and deally CC unit into combat.   

 

The real question each player needs to answer is "how do I plan on dealing with enemy flyers, and more specifically Helldrakes when you are PA based and pay alot for each model."  If the answer is to establish air superiority then the Raven is your best bet.  If you plan to ignore the sky by being too tough to kill and then locking the enemy into CC then the LR is alot better as it is tough and you know it is going to be there from turn one instead of hoping it arrives on turn 2,3 or 4. 

[number6]

People keep mentioning the LRC ... but I do really mean a basic Land Raider, not the LRC variant.

In any case, I do agree that the comparison is a bit like apples and oranges. And the difference in Force Org is absolutely an important distinction. Fast Attack is notoriously underused while Heavy Support slots are precious.

I just think if you're spending 250+ pts for a Stormraven, you likely don't have the points to use all 3 of your heavy slots. So why not take a land raider?

Also: let's not forget we have 4 missiles. That helps to cover for some anti-infantry needs, too. It's not like you'll be using them early in the game if you're shooting other vehicles or MCs, so they'll be around when you need them.

[Lysere]

Lol, my Land Raider Crusader would to have a word with you about anti-air effectiveness. Given that it has shot down more storm ravens with it's multi-melta than our local blood angels storm raven.'

Sounds like a statistical outlier to me and not something that can be relied upon.

>Also keep in mind that at that price point a 10-15 man loota squad can shred your storm raven, while they could never even glance a LRC. Also see Hydras, Quad Guns, Flakk Missiles, Nephilims, and other S6-7 weapons.

fliers and land raiders are apples and oranges. Lootas one of the few units that are unintentionally awesome at AA. A five man tac squad with combi-melta and meltagun stand a better chance of hurting your land raider than they do a flyer. Different units for different purposes. S6 and S7 are not really things to fear with AV12 unless it's massed. Lootas can do it (as you mentioned,) necrons can do it, and not many others can really bring the firepower necessary. Flakk missiles sound great, but are expensive and usually not taken in a number that allows you to actually be effective against AV12. If you did bring enough flakks, your army is probably suffering in other areas.

Another thing to consider when comparing the LRC to the SR is force organization. If your taking a LRC, you're using up slots for psyfleman and NDKs, where as the SR is using up slots for interceptors (who fields 3 units of those?)

True, but since someone hadn't mentioned it yet I figured someone had to. Anything S8 on down is pretty much a non issue for a land raider, and most melta can simply be assaulted or shot before it reaches range. (Attack bikes and speeders are a bit harder to stop) Meanwhile anything S7+ can pen a storm raven, and with the Tau rumors we can expect a lot more high str skyfire weapons now.

Force Org is always the biggest deciding factor, and for someone who can take as many LRCs as he pretty much wants, (BT) the Raven can go ahead and take up a heavy. GKs share a similar luxury because theirs doesn't compete with an important slot.

In the end I think the biggest thing is to remember why you want it. A raven is primarily a gunship, it can carry troops but in an army generally lacking high invulns is not the best choice. LRCs on the other hand, despite having a lot of firepower, are generally taken as a delivery platform, after which they begin firing at anything and everything that isn't the same color and sometimes even then.

If all your after are the guns, and your not expecting a lot of solid AA fire, then for the cost the Raven will probably be the better choice. If your not expecting much if any melta or s9-10, a LRC or even standard Land Raider will do a wonderful job and drive your opponents crazy. Especially if they end up as scoring and drive your enemies off of objectives by tank shocking.

Also I would say it was just a statistical anomaly, but at our LGS the Blood Angel Raven always rolls poor with it's melta, and my LRC has probably taken more AT fire than any other vehicle in the store and generally lived.

People keep mentioning the LRC ... but I do really mean a basic Land Raider, not the LRC variant.

In any case, I do agree that the comparison is a bit like apples and oranges. And the difference in Force Org is absolutely an important distinction. Fast Attack is notoriously underused while Heavy Support slots are precious.

I just think if you're spending 250+ pts for a Stormraven, you likely don't have the points to use all 3 of your heavy slots. So why not take a land raider?

For the loadout in question you are pretty much taking a flying LRC, thus the comparison. Also Land Raiders are used very differently than a Raven.

EDIT: Also note Helldrakes can't hurt a Land Raider of any kind.

[IndigoJack]

Also: let's not forget we have 4 missiles. That helps to cover for some anti-infantry needs, too. It's not like you'll be using them early in the game if you're shooting other vehicles or MCs, so they'll be around when you need them.

I actually do use missiles on MCs. Since so many of the, are psykers, mind strikes allow you to put a wound on them by only hitting them. It's even better against tyranids, since they don't even have the invul to attempt to shrug it off.

[Brother Maikel]

 

Also: let's not forget we have 4 missiles. That helps to cover for some anti-infantry needs, too. It's not like you'll be using them early in the game if you're shooting other vehicles or MCs, so they'll be around when you need them.

I actually do use missiles on MCs. Since so many of the, are psykers, mind strikes allow you to put a wound on them by only hitting them. It's even better against tyranids, since they don't even have the invul to attempt to shrug it off.

 

Invulns can't be taken against Perils anymore (unless you're Eldar and have a Ghosthelm.... stupid xenos breaking the rules).  FNP can though (which 'nids get plenty of).

[IndigoJack]

Right, I knew that, but forget it a lot haha. That makes mind strikes even better against psychic MCs

[AnImA8]

Personally I'll throw my vote in for the Psyraven. I used the OP's variant when 6th first came out, and my gaming group and I were all surprised by just how DEVASTATING the thing can be: MC's, GEq's, MEq's, and almost any vehicle; it really just didn't matter. I think the MM is better than the HB because between the HPB's and the Ast. Can. it'll shred enough infantry, and the Ast. Can. and MM will handle any Vehicle better than the HBs.

Generally speaking I think the Psyraven is worth it's price tag, especially since the LC/MM Raven that most people use tends to run out of truly worthwhile targets after it's AA role (Yes it functions as AT but, aside from the occasional LR, our Psydreads and other options have usually done that job by the time the Flyers are down) has been fulfilled.

But specifically I think the Psyraven is worth it's price tag with my playstyle. I tend to use only Knights and no Henchmen, and so for me the Raven sits better as a gunship than a transport--it'll take all the guys with it when it goes down, and Shadow Skies doesn't help since you're better off DSing Terminators and Strikes anyway. So I say: why not pay 255 for an empty gunship? It's survivable enough and it'll definitely get the job done.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't say the anti-tank Raven runs out of targets. New Tau love their battlesuits, and there are other multi-wound targets it can help wear down (MC's in particular). Plus, if nothing else, it can murder two infanty models a turn and move stuff into new positions. 

 

Mine are generally dead by that point though, so its kinda moot. If you do smoke all the tanks early on, consider going twin plasma cannon on the turret. 

[IndigoJack]

I would say the PC option is the worst option for the SR, due to blast weapons inability to hit flyers. Also the problem isn't necessarily running out of targets, but running out of them in your firing arc.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I would say the PC option is the worst option for the SR, due to blast weapons inability to hit flyers. Also the problem isn't necessarily running out of targets, but running out of them in your firing arc.

Lol, smoke Flyers with the multi-melta, Machine Spirit into ground targets with the plasma cannon. 

 

Your turret weapon has 360 degree firing arc. For your nose weapon yes, but multi-meltas usually have several targets at the start of a game. 

[IndigoJack]

I'm not sure which SR model you have, but mine certainly doesn't have a  360 firing arc. Additionally, if you opt for skyfire, any shots you fire at the ground are snap shots, and templates can't be snap fired. So no MM at the air, and PotMS at the ground. If you want PCs, take servitors. There are more useful weapons you can take with no additional point cost.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Except PotMS allows you to fire at full BS. its the machine spirit shooting, not the pilot trying to track multiple targets. You can skyfire the mm with potms and use the pilot to fire the PC and mindstrikes at a bunched up target