Anyone else ticked off By rumors of the New Codex marines?

[Onisuzume]

I'm pretty sure that release list has long been debunked as rubbish and should be ignored.

Then I'd like to see a source of that.

IMHO I think that they should do a Codex for each 1st founding and include that Chapters successors. Like they had with the Blood Angels and the Flesh Tearers.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/b/b0/Codex_Ultramarines_FCover.jpg/220px-Codex_Ultramarines_FCover.jpg

That, you mean?

[TheEntireMac]

Yea, just like that. Have one for the first 9 and put their key successors in it as well, for example, Codex Imperial Fist includes Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Black Templars.

[Bryan Blaire]

Why would you do that rather than just have army books that have ways of building army lists that might fit multiple Chapters that fight similarly, rather than organized along gene-lines, especially if the gene lines don't really add anything to the way the Chapters fight? For instance, why would the BT be in a book with the IF, when they don't fight similarly, but the BT and BA are both more CC oriented, but in different fashions and set-up?

 

I would hope they never do a "Codex for each loyalist gene-line" personally.

[Lysere]

Why would you do that rather than just have army books that have ways of building army lists that might fit multiple Chapters that fight similarly, rather than organized along gene-lines, especially if the gene lines don't really add anything to the way the Chapters fight? For instance, why would the BT be in a book with the IF, when they don't fight similarly, but the BT and BA are both more CC oriented, but in different fashions and set-up?

 

I would hope they never do a "Codex for each loyalist gene-line" personally.

 

If they did I'm sure they'd break up Chaos more and we'd have like 20+ codexes.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

Personally? I would quite like it if C:SM were redone. It would be a fine opportunity to grant some additional recosting on points values, and to enable hopefully, more chapter specific forces.

Although this will not occur, some way if stopping multi specials from differing chapters in the same force would be nice. Apart from allies obviously.

Do I believe that C:SM will get cheaper and/or better unit upgrades? Yes I do. Will they get new shiny raider variants and funky rhinos? Again yes I think so.

Ultimately as long as its balanced, it can only be a good thing. As has been said, the faster the dexes come out the quicker the broken ones get fixed. Lol although I can already hear the crys of "what? We have to pay how much for a raven/talon now."

[Onisuzume]

Hm... Chaos Khorne, Chaos Tzeentch, Chaos Slaanesh, Chaos Nurgle, Chaos Malal, Chaos Undivided...

Would chaos really need more than that?

Quote

Yea, just like that.

Except that there's a reason they discontinued C:Ultramarines.

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Codex Imperial Fist includes Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Black Templars.

So two entirely different army lists?

One could argue that Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are similar enough to be done with a "chapter tactics" thingy, the black templars clearly deviate from the list.

And what about chapters of dubious origins?

The Charcharodons Astra are rumoured to be a Raven Guard successor, but follows quite a different approach to supplies and procurement (nomad-predation style).

And what about the Cursed Founding?

Yeah, the Lamenters are BA-successors, but the BA codex doesn't reflect the curse that they carry.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes chaos would need more than that.

[Balthamal]

 

Look at this from the bright side. If Codex SM is equal or better than Codex DA you can use your models to play two codexes (and a chance to have decent flyers to all the grumpy cats out there).

While I have done this in the past, its nothing more than heresy. You should report to chamber 42.

As an added penance you will have Stobz presiding over the...reeducation.

 

Brother Stobz?? Throne, surely the transgression wasn't that....heinous

[Marshal Rohr]

Templars are getting rolled into C:SM

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

Look at this from the bright side. If Codex SM is equal or better than Codex DA you can use your models to play two codexes (and a chance to have decent flyers to all the grumpy cats out there).

While I have done this in the past, its nothing more than heresy. You should report to chamber 42.

As an added penance you will have Stobz presiding over the...reeducation.

 

Brother Stobz?? Throne, surely the transgression wasn't that....heinous

It matters not, a moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy. Thereby the most extreme punishment must be met in order to ensure that such grievances don't repeat themselves. Be happy that you don't follow the chaos powers, for you would have been targeted for Stobzdom!

 

 

Hm... Chaos Khorne, Chaos Tzeentch, Chaos Slaanesh, Chaos Nurgle, Chaos Malal, Chaos Undivided...

Would chaos really need more than that?

Quote

Yea, just like that.

Except that there's a reason they discontinued C:Ultramarines.

>

Quote

Codex Imperial Fist includes Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, and Black Templars.

So two entirely different army lists?

One could argue that Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are similar enough to be done with a "chapter tactics" thingy, the black templars clearly deviate from the list.

And what about chapters of dubious origins?

The Charcharodons Astra are rumoured to be a Raven Guard successor, but follows quite a different approach to supplies and procurement (nomad-predation style).

And what about the Cursed Founding?

Yeah, the Lamenters are BA-successors, but the BA codex doesn't reflect the curse that they carry.

 

Trying to take into account every damnable chapter that made an appearance in fluff is a losing prospect.

The very existence of the 1st founding chapters (BT Excluding) are many and enough as they are.

With all due respect, certain chapters such as the Imperial Fists, RavenGuard and the like don't have enough of a reason (not fluff wise but on the table with units of their own) to exist as independent codices.

You can clearly represent them as distinct forces as the main dex is. After all they are codex adherent. I am all for having a list of rules representing their mondus operandi  though that cannot be mix and matched with others. ETC: An ironhand, ironfather and the Iron hands rules cannot be able to be mixed with Catto or Shrike except in seperate detachments.

 

The problem is with the chapters that deviate. Iron Hands been an example. While you can do a 'decent' representation with wolf guard terminators, these guys a case study of their own and deserve some rules. If only in the form of distinct H.Q. choices.

[Upstartes]

What I think C:SM needs is a "Chapter Tactics" section that isn't tied to a special character. You should be able to spend points to change your chapter from pure codex/Ultramarines to one of the other chapters - receiving a special rule or two - without having to buy the special character. That way, if you want to play an army that feels like Raven Guard without having Shrike in every army list, you can. This section wouldn't be mix and match, but just a list of "you can buy one chapter upgrade from this list" type of thing. Then you can tie special characters to specific upgrades, so that you don't have Vulkan and Marneus Calgar in the same list. This would somewhat reduce the options available to mix and match special characters, but would increase the flexibility of playing one of the almost-codex chapters. I think that would be fluffier, and generally better for the game.

[Master Avoghai]

This has already been done and used to be known as "chapter traits" and lead to the most broken armies I've seen (along with the IG doctrines system)...

 

The alternate solution is to create a double page listing the principal rules and/or codex limitations for each chapter of renown.

 

Exemple : Raven Guard

Assault squad count as troops

Non assault squad MUST get a dedicated transport (except termis and vanguards).

 

But you MUST NOT let players make their own chapters by picking traits like they want. GW rules are sometimes broken but when you let players making their own it's even worse!

[Upstartes]

Master Avoghai: I think you misunderstand me. I remember the Chapter Traits of old, and that wasn't what I was suggesting. I was suggesting essentially the same thing you are. Pay some points, get a "package" of minor rules that goes with a particular chapter. That's the same way it works now, except that to get that package you have to also buy the special character, and I don't think that's as much fun. Separate the rules package from the character, and then expand the number of packages a little to cover a few extra chapters.

[Captain Idaho]

The implementation of the Chapter Traits system was average at best but it was a great concept. Same as Codex Chaos Marines in 3.5. The problem wasn't that they were flawed and needed removal but because they just needed tweaking.

[Master Avoghai]

@Upstartes : my bad, I really got that you suggested that player should be able to choose their advantages and drawbacks like in v4.

 

 

@Captain Idaho : the main problem was that GW let the choice to the players to pick their advatages/disadvantages and made minor disadvantages like no allies (which was not a issue like it would be now) that everybody used to take and in exchange they may get great bonus.

The chaos v3.5 was a different issue : the books introduced too many additional rules to the generic rules + allowed people to mix the squad from the different books.

 

The solution is to provide a set of chapter ID card : list the traits they benefit from and the drawbacks for each chapter. The player is free to choose the chapter he wants to use but not making his own "menu". With the salamanders, RG, IF, IH + the SW, BA, DA and BT codex, I don't think that players should need more rules set for their own chapters, you may use "count as" and I hardly see how players could be unhappy...

For chaos the solution is to make a "Books of the God" with all the army lists for each God. You choose a God if you want to add stuff from another one or from the undivided chaos codex, then you use the allies system.

[Brother Immolator]

The implementation of the Chapter Traits system was average at best but it was a great concept. Same as Codex Chaos Marines in 3.5. The problem wasn't that they were flawed and needed removal but because they just needed tweaking.

The chaos codex 3.5 had a downright broken list: Iron warriors with oblits and bassilisks.

It was extremely problematic.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Ok, from venting a possible C:SM better than C:DA to discussion the virtues of C:SM, rumors of it and even calling upon C: Chaos Space Marines means the thread outlived usefulness to DA forum. I'm going to close it but if you gents prefer I'll open it and kiick it into Amicus Aedes.. just send me a PM.