Do Astartes have memories of their childhoods?

[malika666]

Something I'm pondering a bit about. I know that post-Heresy marines undergo all sorts of hypnotherapy and indoctrination. But I imagined that during the Great Crusade this wasn't that much the case. Or is it?

 

 

In one of ADB's Night Lords novels the Night Lords parade through the streets of Nostramo, during which Xarl or Talos' parents pop up, but the marines don't fully seem to recognize them. Anybody got that info?

 

So is there more information out there on Crusade/Heresy era Astartes and their pre-Marine memories?

[Red Scorpions]

In many of the Space Marine books Ive read, it seems most of the heroes have shards of their childhood. Ill get back to you with more infor

[Carach]

Crimson Fist describes pre-marinisation (lol check me out inventing terms) 

the dark angel novels suggest by the story-arc that they remember their past and those of others.

sure there's a couple of others that also discuss childhoods but cant remember.. deliverance lost?  or one of the other stories involving raven guard mention times being in prison murdering guards at a very young age during Corax's revolution.

[Cerbero666]

If I remember correctly in one of the  A-D-B's novels of the Night Lords was just Talos who didn't recognize his mother, but Xarl did. I don't know if that's some problem of the astartes creation thing or was Talos forgetting about his mother for any other reason. But at the same time it was described in the novel the past of Talos and his childhood but I can't remember if it was his memories or just a presentation of his life by the author. 

[Trankz]

In Prince of Crows Sevatar remembers very clearly his childhood.

My interpretation is that the astartes can remember if they want to. But transformed in Space Marines they simple just don't care about it. It makes sense: having warriors not so attached to humans feelings make them better killers.

 

Maybe some legions like the Salamanders, that actually lived mixed with the civil population had a different attitude. But not shure about this.

[Cerbero666]

In Prince of Crows Sevatar remembers very clearly his childhood.

My interpretation is that the astartes can remember if they want to. But transformed in Space Marines they simple just don't care about it. It makes sense: having warriors not so attached to humans feelings make them better killers.

 

Maybe some legions like the Salamanders, that actually lived mixed with the civil population had a different attitude. But not share about this.

 

I agree with you, is more a personal decision than a biological thing. Good point.

[Azarias]

Let's not forget The First Heretic, where Argel Tal recalls his childhood before he gives the order to betray the loyalists on Istvaan. Striking moment, that.

[Pavel Araghast]

Now reading The First Heretic, at first half of the book though, Argel Tal remembers his apotecary which said he will serve his Primarch and he is just 11 years old.

[godking]

Sans a mindwipe or activelly trying forget Astartes can recall their childhood

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Their brains themselves haven't really been altered in any way - enhanced, if anything. Since Marines should have eidetic memories, or something close to it (even though we've seen examples of Marines forgetting stuff, like IIRC in the SW series), it's probably a choice they make. Their childhoods don't really matter at all, as far as they're concerned.

[depthcharge12]

I feel it's more or less a choice by the Author. If the Astartes' memories are relevant to the plot (I.e. the child feels headaches and is a latent psyker, or in the DAs HH books is a warning of what is to come, or a coming of age, etc.) then it will be included.

 

I feel that legionaries remember most of their childhood but common day 40k marines have it suppressed, similiar to the Spartans in the Halo series (I'm not saying they copy each other but it's a similarity I'm drawing to).

[hobointherain]

In the salamanders books, it seems to suggest that memories of a marine's past life is some sort of abnormality. Perhaps a failure or some mishap during hypno-indoctrination. I imagine the psycho-conditioning and indoctrination process would potentially interfere with a marines memory, either as a side effect or by design. In their early days as a marine they probably will have quite a sound memory of their past, until the apothecaries start tinkering, and of course over a life that could potentially span centuries, its inevitable that such "unimportant" childhood memories will be forgotten, while the glories of past battles may be retained. 

[Apothecary Vaddon]

So, in other words, what depthcharge said. Largely up to the author.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

In Prince of Crows Sevatar remembers very clearly his childhood.

My interpretation is that the astartes can remember if they want to. But transformed in Space Marines they simple just don't care about it. It makes sense: having warriors not so attached to humans feelings make them better killers.

 

Maybe some legions like the Salamanders, that actually lived mixed with the civil population had a different attitude. But not shure about this.

I'm not sure if this is the case in Heresy-era but there's a section in Son's of Dorn (a book specifically about scouts becoming battle brothers) where one of the characters is thinking about his father but notes that the image is becoming more and more like an image of Rogal Dorn. I agree with Trankz the hypno conditioning more seems to reprogramme the marines mind to think that the information is not relevent and as such is disregarded by most. Note that most of the marines listed as having some memories of their past aren't exactly the 'perfect' marines; I've not read any of the Soul Haunter books but I gather that Talos isn't exactly 'all there' in the head, Sevatar had just unlocked some latant psyker powers, rode a fighter and taken a blow to the head etc. It does seem like the legions/chapters that spend more time with mortals see the value in keeping some of their humanity I.E the Ultras and Salamanders.

 

Not to side track the conversation but could you imagine having a Salamander neighbour!?!?

[Cerbero666]

 

In Prince of Crows Sevatar remembers very clearly his childhood.

My interpretation is that the astartes can remember if they want to. But transformed in Space Marines they simple just don't care about it. It makes sense: having warriors not so attached to humans feelings make them better killers.

Maybe some legions like the Salamanders, that actually lived mixed with the civil population had a different attitude. But not shure about this.

I'm not sure if this is the case in Heresy-era but there's a section in Son's of Dorn (a book specifically about scouts becoming battle brothers) where one of the characters is thinking about his father but notes that the image is becoming more and more like an image of Rogal Dorn. I agree with Trankz the hypno conditioning more seems to reprogramme the marines mind to think that the information is not relevent and as such is disregarded by most. Note that most of the marines listed as having some memories of their past aren't exactly the 'perfect' marines; I've not read any of the Soul Haunter books but I gather that Talos isn't exactly 'all there' in the head, Sevatar had just unlocked some latant psyker powers, rode a fighter and taken a blow to the head etc. It does seem like the legions/chapters that spend more time with mortals see the value in keeping some of their humanity I.E the Ultras and Salamanders.

 

Not to side track the conversation but could you imagine having a Salamander neighbour!?!?

I would ask him to play in my football team for sure...

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I would ask him to play in my football team for sure...

Hi I just moved in next door and I was wondering if I could borrow a cup of..... OH SWEET MERCIFUL EMPEROR!

[malika666]

 

In Prince of Crows Sevatar remembers very clearly his childhood.

My interpretation is that the astartes can remember if they want to. But transformed in Space Marines they simple just don't care about it. It makes sense: having warriors not so attached to humans feelings make them better killers.

 

Maybe some legions like the Salamanders, that actually lived mixed with the civil population had a different attitude. But not shure about this.

I'm not sure if this is the case in Heresy-era but there's a section in Son's of Dorn (a book specifically about scouts becoming battle brothers) where one of the characters is thinking about his father but notes that the image is becoming more and more like an image of Rogal Dorn.

This is very interesting! Do you think the hypnotherapy causes Marines to reshape their memories in such a way that they view their fellow marines as biological brothers and the Primarch as their father? With first the memory of the father looking more and more like the Primarch, after a while the memories of the original father could be completely replaced by memories of the Primarch.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

This is very interesting! Do you think the hypnotherapy causes Marines to reshape their memories in such a way that they view their fellow marines as biological brothers and the Primarch as their father? With first the memory of the father looking more and more like the Primarch, after a while the memories of the original father could be completely replaced by memories of the Primarch.

The book is in my library at home not with me or I would quote you the passage but that is how I remember it. Well with my very limited knowledge on the human mind I would have thought it would be easier to manipulate existing memories rather than force new ones in. Part of a Spartan warriors training was to take him from his parents at a very early age (7 I think) and force him to live, train, and fight with the men he would fight with in the future that way they viewed the men at their sides as closer than their own familys. They did also encourage the men to sleep with one another to further strengthen that bond but we shant pull at that thread. Add that to the fact that almost all marines who fought along side their Primarch viewed him with roughly the same level of awe that the Primarchs themselves viewed the Emperor I think it's entirely possible.

[Marshall Bretton]

well part of the process of becoming a marine is to give them an eidetic memory, however in normal humans you either have one or you don't, i would think that if one was artificially engineered then any memories from before would not be affected and so would fade over time, and in a life potentially hundreds of years long the likelihood is that older marines would remember less, young marines may still retain memories, but after a few decades they would be almost gone

 

however i do remember a part in one of the uriel ventris books (the one on calth, can't remember the name) where he has childhood memories from his past life on the planet (admittedly these were triggered by him being in a place where he went as a child but it proves he still has the memory)

[malika666]

Children are upgraded to marines when they are 9-13, meaning that the lives before is a very short period. Note that most remember childhood memories from when they are 4-5 old, but younger tends to be not that common. So we have a period of 4-11. I understand it's important, but it also shows how dysfunctional Space Marines truly are...

For some reason it makes me think of child celebrities like Michael Jackson and such...

[Deus Imperator Vult]

well part of the process of becoming a marine is to give them an eidetic memory, however in normal humans you either have one or you don't, i would think that if one was artificially engineered then any memories from before would not be affected and so would fade over time, and in a life potentially hundreds of years long the likelihood is that older marines would remember less, young marines may still retain memories, but after a few decades they would be almost gone

 

however i do remember a part in one of the uriel ventris books (the one on calth, can't remember the name) where he has childhood memories from his past life on the planet (admittedly these were triggered by him being in a place where he went as a child but it proves he still has the memory)

I'd just think any human memories you have would be of little use to most marines so they would allow them to fade. As I mused above I think the Ultras are one of the Chapters who keep a fair amount of their humanity. Considering they hold lands and titles and deal with govenence of Ultramar some fraction of understanding towards the natives must be helpful. The same with the Salamanders the only who truly live apart from the common men are Chapter master and first company.

 

Children are upgraded to marines when they are 9-13, meaning that the lives before is a very short period. Note that most remember childhood memories from when they are 4-5 old, but younger tends to be not that common. So we have a period of 4-11. I understand it's important, but it also shows how dysfunctional Space Marines truly are...

For some reason it makes me think of child celebrities like Michael Jackson and such...

 

I thought the last phase of implantation was between 16-18? The first phase starting around 9. 

 

[Marshall Bretton]

depends on the chapter, space wolves it seems to be 14+ and takes a few months, ultramarines on the other hand i think start at 10ish, maybe a bit older and the process takes several years it seems

[malika666]

I would imagine that first there would be some sort of training and preparation before they start cutting those kids up?

[Deus Imperator Vult]

'The 19 implanted organs are very complicated, and because several of them only work properly or at all in the presence of other implants, theremoval, mutation or  failure of one organ can affect the precise functioning of the others. Because of this, and the fact that each Chapter's gene-seed belongs to that Chapter alone, different Chapters display different characteristics and use different sets of implants and methods of implantation. Throughout the implantation process the Marine must undergo various forms of conditioning in order for the implanted organs to develop and become part of his physiology.

Listed below is the complete set of implants used:

• Phases 1-3 can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 10 and 14 years of age.
• Phases 4 and 5 can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 12 and 14 years of age.
• Hypnotherapy normally begins at phase 6, ideally sometime between 14 and 17 years of age.
• Phases 7 to 9 are normally introduced simultaneously, ideally at a point between 14 and 16 years old. The following series of organs are also ideally implanted between the ages of 14 and 16.
• Phases 14 and 15 may be introduced at the same time, ideally between 15 and 16 years of age. The remaining series of implants are then ideally introduced to the recipient between the ages of 16 and 18'

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.UV2RhlczTKd

[Cerbero666]

'The 19 implanted organs are very complicated, and because several of them only work properly or at all in the presence of other implants, theremoval, mutation or  failure of one organ can affect the precise functioning of the others. Because of this, and the fact that each Chapter's gene-seed belongs to that Chapter alone, different Chapters display different characteristics and use different sets of implants and methods of implantation. Throughout the implantation process the Marine must undergo various forms of conditioning in order for the implanted organs to develop and become part of his physiology.

Listed below is the complete set of implants used:

• Phases 1-3 can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 10 and 14 years of age.
• Phases 4 and 5 can be introduced at the same time, ideally between 12 and 14 years of age.
• Hypnotherapy normally begins at phase 6, ideally sometime between 14 and 17 years of age.
• Phases 7 to 9 are normally introduced simultaneously, ideally at a point between 14 and 16 years old. The following series of organs are also ideally implanted between the ages of 14 and 16.
• Phases 14 and 15 may be introduced at the same time, ideally between 15 and 16 years of age. The remaining series of implants are then ideally introduced to the recipient between the ages of 16 and 18'

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#.UV2RhlczTKd

 

Now that you mention it... I recall that assassin guy Maggard from the first trilogy of the Horus Heresy series. The Sons of Horus started to transform him into a space marine and he was an adult, same thing with Kor Phaeron. But for his combat with Qruze it doesn't seems that the age when he got the implants affects him in any form. So my question is: there's an age limit to the implantation of the organs? has been stated before?