Azrael/Command Squad

[Mattias]

Hi Brothers,

 

As background to this topic I am attempting to put together an agressive force based on a mixed wing approach (Deep-striking Deathwing / Scouting Ravenwing / Drop Podding Greenwing) that attempts to overwhelm a flank through concentration of force. Given this aim I believe that it makes sense to take Azrael as HQ choice due to him unlocking both Ravenwing and Deathwing as Troops and having access to brilliant planning.

 

I have been playing around with ideas for his squad that do not have an excessive points cost but which are still effective and I would appreciate some feedback on the below squad.

 

Azrael

Command Squad [Apothecary (Bolter/Narthecium), Veteran (Standard of Devastation/Bolter/Meltagun), 3 x Veteran (Bolter/Meltagun)]

Drop Pod

Total = 470

 

The idea is that Azrael provides the squad protection (both 4++ and assault deterent) combined with Feel No Pain and the squad takes advantage of being able to take a bolter and an additional special weapon in order to both pose a threat on the drop (4 x S8 AP1 & 2 x S7 AP2) and to synergise with the banner on later turns whilst continuing to pose a threat to vehicles (24 bolter shots or 4 melta shots).

 

Do you think this squad could be effective?

[Boniface]

I personally would drop the salvo banner in this squad for the chapter banner because they will get embroiled in CC before they can make use of it and would benefit from +1 attack.

[march10k]

Effective?  Only until it starts taking fire immediately after arrival.  Efficient?  Not a chance.  In fact, it's cripplingly points-inefficient.  And putting Azzy in a squad with 5 models is dumb. Putting them in rapid-fire range of the enemy is dumber.  They'll get torrented to death on arrival.  Nobody's going to bother challenging the protection provided by the lion helm, they're just going to pour on the small arms fire.  After all, it's only five models, then azzy's standing there alone and unafraid.  NOW it's time for the AP2 shooting.  How many 4+ saves can he make?  His squad will die on arrival, and he will at least be badly wounded, if not killed.

[Herocide]

Your Deathwing, Ravenwing and Greenwing forces are going to have to have a very large threat potential in your opponent's eyes in order to keep your command squad safe. Enough to stop them from attacking your instant-deathable HQ with Str8+ after peppering down your marines. You're dumping a ton of points into a unit with only moderate survivability. It can work, don't get me wrong, but as I said, you're going to need the rest of your army to seem more menacing in your opponent's eyes so that they draw the fire instead of your squishy command squad.

[Upstartes]

OK, I'll offer a more positive assessment, because I am working up a similar Azzy drop-pod team.  Here are my thoughts:

 

1. I don't think the Standard of Devastation is the best banner for this team. It won't do anything for the deathwing that come down with you, and on the first turn it won't do much for the drop-pod greenwing guys because they will have moved.

2. What do you plan for the team to do? I see two options: lay waste with guns on the turn they hit, and then get into CC as best they can. OR Do their best to survive turn 1 and then focus on beating the snot out of something on turn 2. Option one will be more reliable, because you can really kit out the command squad with special weapons, but it may waste Azrael a bit. Option two will be more challenging because, as others have said, the team is going to be a target. But they're a hard target, and having them be a fire magnet may not be a bad thing. I'm going this route with my team.

 

If you go with Option 1, I say use the Standard of Fortitude and drop the apothecary. Then the team still has FnP, and so do other units that deep strike around them. If you go Option 2, consider keeping the apothecary and going with the Chapter Banner for the extra choppy.

 

The way to try to keep this squad alive (or the way I will try to keep it alive) is by threat saturation. The pod should not come in alone. It should come in with a solid deathwing assault. I don't know how many pods you plan to bring, but it sounds like more than one. If you can get enough to have an additional pod come down, they you're really giving the enemy a lot of stuff to deal with. And let's not forget that this team will have 3+/4++/FnP. Wiping them out will take a lot of shots, which may work to the advantage of the rest of your army. I'll probably be putting another character in my Azzy pod too - a cheap librarian or a techmarine with harness. For extra punch and extra bodies to take shots.

 

I'm not convinced this is a stupid idea. It's just a bit of a gamble. I think it can pay off enough to be pleasing.

[Mattias]

Hi thank you for all the feedback, there are certainly a lot of strong opinions about the practicality of the squad.

 

I am not sure that I agree the squad will be as fragile as some make out, as it will be coming down on a flank along with Deathwing Squads and Tactical Squads and will be supported by Ravenwing Bike Squads that have scouted and moved up. That is a lot of units coming down on one flank of an enemy army and with alpha strike capability they should clear out some of the enemy units closest to the drop zone. Following that the unit still has 3+/4++/FnP and if necessary Azrael to tank small arms fire (it will take approx 27 bolter shots to put a wound on him). However I do agree that the key to their survivability is choosing a sensible drop point and posing other multiple threats.

 

Upstartes, thank you for the configuration suggestions, I had considered the Standard of Fortitude as well and I felt that the choice between the two standards would largely come down to the rest of the units in the army, the more bikes/tacticals the more beneficial Devastation becomes whereas with more terminators in the mix Fortitude becomes more favourable. Do you have an example of the list you are building so that I can see how your command squad ties in with it?

 

For those of you who dislike the squad could you offer any alternative suggestions for HQ + Squad setup to fit in with this style of army?

[Brother Immolator]

Effective?  Only until it starts taking fire immediately after arrival.  Efficient?  Not a chance.  In fact, it's cripplingly points-inefficient.  And putting Azzy in a squad with 5 models is dumb. Putting them in rapid-fire range of the enemy is dumber.  They'll get torrented to death on arrival.  Nobody's going to bother challenging the protection provided by the lion helm, they're just going to pour on the small arms fire.  After all, it's only five models, then azzy's standing there alone and unafraid.  NOW it's time for the AP2 shooting.  How many 4+ saves can he make?  His squad will die on arrival, and he will at least be badly wounded, if not killed.

 

Can I ask something with the utmost respect? (I Am serious).

Is per chance your user name on another Forum Uber and are a chaos marine player?

[Upstartes]

Well, I'm actually not constructing a single list. I like to model up different elements, and then mix and match them into different lists when I play. Right now, I'm in an unusual situation in that I'm playing a Crusade of Fire campaign, and my Grand Warlord is Azrael with the Grand Warlord trait that gives me bonus points in the campaign if Azrael slays a character or vehicle. So I have more incentive than normal to send Azrael into the think of things with an expensive command squad.

 

I envision sometimes sending him down in the drop pod as I described above, while other times putting him and his crew in a Land Raider of some kind, probably with a techmarine and PFG to protect the LR. I haven't fully fleshed out the other parts of these lists yet. Right now I'm trying to decide how to kit up the last two guys in the command squad. For this team I've got the Deathwing Banner (to give Azzy every extra chance he can get to kill something), and apothecary, and a champion. For the other two I can't decide whether to go bare-bones bolt pistol & chainswords, to upgrade to plasma pistols for extra death on the turn they come out of the drop pod, or to go with power swords for extra AP3 choppy in assault. Had had initially leaned plasma, but now I'm wondering if cheaper isn't better and just do bolt pistols & chainswords. I mean, someone has to die on the first turn.

[Landdavi]

I too am thinking about this command and just purchased the models. One concern is focus fire. Someone please comment if I am wrong but I believe your enemy can select to shoot all armor saves 2+ and better and wouldn't have to destroy the rest of the squad before getting after Azarael.

 

That said, I am thinking about a 100% mobile list. RAS, BK , and speeders. I scatter these units around to get the opponent to make a mistake in deployment or get him to spread out. this alao helps if he goes first. Then I scout move if going first and move to ultimately join the drop pod on turn one. So my scattered units are suddenly a gun line at maybe 24 inches range. Note - the strategy is not to drop in flamer or melta range. If I take SoD than the RAS bikes are shooting at optimal range. if I take the FnP banner than potentially I have a command squad with 4 plasma, two Bk squads to the left and right with plasma and all with a 4++ cover jink and FnP. So, i might start 36 inches away but on my first turn be shooting with most of the army at 24 inches and walk in or blast in with bikes when the timing is right.

 

For a kicker I might add a tech marine (also) with a 2+ save and a PFG to protect the land speeders. Then back them away to take advantage of their firing range and try to present a less lucrative blast target in subsequent turns.

[Upstartes]

Focus Fire only allows you to shoot at models in lighter or no cover if part of the target squad is in one kind if cover and part is in lighter or no cover. You can't use it to single out models in a squad with different armor saves.