Betrayer - A review with an Ultramarines slant

[Seahawk]

I read about that Titan scenario before. In fact, I think back then as well it was the WE that did it. I don't perfectly remember it, but to see it written again in a different book...hmm, how do I feel about that.

[Captain Idaho]

@ Gree: I don't know if anyone actually knows Guilliman is setting up Sanguinius as the new Emperor. Think it's conjecture from DA fans who believe the Lion's paranoia is trust worthy

It could come to pass but I doubt it'll be so black and white if it did. My personal theory is Guilliman wants Sanguinius for his plan of counter attack and psychic might to break the Ruinstorm.

[Gree]

@ gree: I don't know if anyone actually knows Guilliman is setting up Sanguinius as the new Emperor. Think it's conjecture from DA fans who believe the Lion's paranoia is trust worthy

I heard it on the Black Library Bolthole actually, no from any DA fan.

[Captain Idaho]

It was a tongue in cheek reference to the fact the information is gleamed from conjecture based upon the Lion's own interpretation of Guilliman's apparent plans, despite being generally paranoid, untrusting, disparaging and mis-informed over other Primarchs.

 

Come on Gree!

 

[Gree]

 

It was a tongue in cheek reference to the fact the information is gleamed from conjecture based upon the Lion's own interpretation of Guilliman's apparent plans, despite being generally paranoid, untrusting, disparaging and mis-informed over other Primarchs.

 

Come on Gree!

 

The Lion thought that Guilliman wanted an Empire of his own. The conjecture in the Black Library Bolthole discussion was based off one of the new book covers with Guilliman and Sanguinius, as well as Horus's comments about Sanguinius, not anything to do with the Lion.

 

If you are going to make a tongue in cheek comment then I humbly suggest at least be sure it's an appropriate answer to what the other person is actually talking about.

[Captain Idaho]

Wow, you're even more fun than I remembered.

 

The conjecture I've read came from people talking about the Lion and his opinions.

 

I don't know what sort of discussions you're having in your new hunting grounds (I'm sure it's a hoot) but it sounds even more assumption than taking a single Primarch's opinion at face value. Book covers? They are representative of a novel, artistic celebration and summation. Take the cover of Betrayer for example -

 

there was never a moment in that book I can recall where they fought like that, side by side. You don't get them together on a battlefield until after Angron's lost his axes for a start!

 

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

@ Gree: I don't know if anyone actually knows Guilliman is setting up Sanguinius as the new Emperor. Think it's conjecture from DA fans who believe the Lion's paranoia is trust worthy

It is not conjecture. It is fact. I say so.

[Gree]

 

The conjecture I've read came from people talking about the Lion and his opinions.

Then it's quite fortunate that I'm not talking about that at all. So I'm not sure why you are bringing that up as a counterpoint.

 

I don't know what sort of discussions you're having in your new hunting grounds (I'm sure it's a hoot) but it sounds even more assumption than taking a single Primarch's opinion at face value. Book covers? They are representative of a novel, artistic celebration and summation. Take the cover of Betrayer for example -

 

there was never a moment in that book I can recall where they fought like that, side by side. You don't get them together on a battlefield until after Angron's lost his axes for a start!

 

That's why I put it up as a bit of idle speculation of what I heard. I don't recall claiming any solid facts, just what I heard. So again I'm not sure what was the point to your statement.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't know what argument you're trying to start Gree? It wasn't a counter point I brought up, nor an attack on your speculation, rather an answer to your speculation.

 

The point of my statement? I was explaining that all it was speculation and nothing more.

[Gree]

I don't know what argument you're trying to start Gree? It wasn't a counter point I brought up, nor an attack on your speculation, rather an answer to your speculation.

 

The point of my statement? I was explaining that all it was speculation and nothing more.

 

I'm not trying to start any kind of argument. All I'm doing is simply defending myself and trying to explain my point in the face of your little snipe.

 

At least it increasingly becomes clear to me that I should have never bothered to post in this thread.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe you should make a report if you feel so hard done by? I'm certain the Admins will review the thread impartially.

[Gree]

Maybe you should make a report if you feel so hard done by? I'm certain the Admins will review the thread impartially.

 

To be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no faith in the Admins to review any thread impartially.

 

But enough, this is my last post in the thread. I have nothing more to contribute to this topic and no desire to add anything else.

[blackoption]

I have to disagree with the statement that the Ultra's are not holding a good track record so far.

 

While the attack on Calth makes Pearl Harbor look like a highschool pep rally, it was clearly put, at least to me, that the only reason they were not crushed outright was because of their tactical proficiency and ability to adapt.  Had any other legion sucker punched at Calth, then I would doubt they would come back as nearly as strongly as the Ultramarines did.  Guilliman's legion did not take that attack lying down.  In fact, after routing Word Bearer forces on Calth (whether or not you argue the Word Bearers were successful on Calth, Lorgar seemed to disagree with Erebus on that point), they immediately campaign against the traitors.

 

I'm actually kinda proud of the Ultramarines track record thus far. Though I want to read more about the underground war.

[A D-B]

I read about that Titan scenario before. In fact, I think back then as well it was the WE that did it. I don't perfectly remember it, but to see it written again in a different book...hmm, how do I feel about that.

 

Are you sure? I invented the weapons used to cripple the Titan, so I doubt it played out the same way. While I'm sure Imperator Titans have been stormed before (it'd be weird if they weren't), I doubt it was done by Warhound Titans crippling the thing, and being boarded by two Chaos Legions.

[Captain Idaho]

Seahawk used to have Tigurius as his avatar and I'm sure I've seen him mention Tigurius as a favorite character so it's probably more than coincidence he's seen this element of the story before! ;)

 

I have to disagree with the statement that the Ultra's are not holding a good track record so far.

 

While the attack on Calth makes Pearl Harbor look like a highschool pep rally, it was clearly put, at least to me, that the only reason they were not crushed outright was because of their tactical proficiency and ability to adapt.  Had any other legion sucker punched at Calth, then I would doubt they would come back as nearly as strongly as the Ultramarines did.  Guilliman's legion did not take that attack lying down.  In fact, after routing Word Bearer forces on Calth (whether or not you argue the Word Bearers were successful on Calth, Lorgar seemed to disagree with Erebus on that point), they immediately campaign against the traitors.

 

I'm actually kinda proud of the Ultramarines track record thus far. Though I want to read more about the underground war.

Totally. I hope it didn't come off in my initial evaluation that I thought otherwise but I was really impressed how they fight so well against the odds. It dispelled the myth they had their reputation purely because of their numbers.

 

Another moment I loved was the way Angron's problems were handled. He was tortured by the Nails and it was obvious he resented how he ended up on a planet and upbringing which was less than fair when his brothers hadn't, but my absolute favorite was just how much he wanted to blame others for things but failed to accept the hypocrisy in what he did himself. It wasn't really his fault - the Nails limit the space for rational thinking and we all lie to ourselves to justify our lives/actions.

 

Great to see the depth many couldn't envisage Angron having.

[Marshall Bretton]

yeah i imagined angron as basically "KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL!!!!!"

 

but the depth of the character was brilliant, gave me an entirely new perspective on him and his legion, i actually sympathised with them, especially Khârn, hell i even liked him (and argal tal)

 

 

and personally i think the way the smurf marines are portrayed as fighting against massively overwhelming odds, but still dealing out more damage than they are taking, and definitely not giving up is great, they might be losing in a "well at the end of the battle they had to retreat so the we and wb beat them" way, but in terms of the damage they are doing for the resources they have they are definitely winning, it is taking 2 full legions to try and wipe out 1 (admittedly overly large) legion, and they can't do it (and as we all know they don't do it)

[Captain Idaho]

Oh and another twist I think I picked up on was;

 

 

Khârn's fighting prowess increased at the end when he turned to cold fury rather than berserk rage. Nice little touch and actually ties in with that short story in WD once where he assaults a Slaanesh Daemon chair thingy and he actually seems surprisingly calm and calculated.

 

If Khârn fought Orfeo like that it would have been a different story perhaps, which is the moral of the story repeated (remember Russ and his lesson? ;) ).

 

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Maybe you should make a report if you feel so hard done by? I'm certain the Admins will review the thread impartially.

Is Azzykins gonna hafta deepstrike a bitch??

[Seahawk]

 

I read about that Titan scenario before. In fact, I think back then as well it was the WE that did it. I don't perfectly remember it, but to see it written again in a different book...hmm, how do I feel about that.

 

Are you sure? I invented the weapons used to cripple the Titan, so I doubt it played out the same way. While I'm sure Imperator Titans have been stormed before (it'd be weird if they weren't), I doubt it was done by Warhound Titans crippling the thing, and being boarded by two Chaos Legions.

 

The details are different, yes, but in the end it was an Imperator that was somehow slowed/crippled, then chaos terminators (like 1-200) boarded it to take it over. There then was so much fighting/infighting that nobody won it and it was basically unusable. I believe it was a short story in an anthology perhaps.

 

All I know is that I've read the scenario before. ;)

 

Also, dunno if you have convenient knowledge, but why did BL start printing in bigger-size books? Why aren't they keeping to the pocket novel format? When (if at all) will it come out in the smaller size? I so desperately want to read this book and the preceding one, but they are in the wrong size for the book shelf!

[A D-B]

I read about that Titan scenario before. In fact, I think back then as well it was the WE that did it. I don't perfectly remember it, but to see it written again in a different book...hmm, how do I feel about that.

Are you sure? I invented the weapons used to cripple the Titan, so I doubt it played out the same way. While I'm sure Imperator Titans have been stormed before (it'd be weird if they weren't), I doubt it was done by Warhound Titans crippling the thing, and being boarded by two Chaos Legions.

The details are different, yes, but in the end it was an Imperator that was somehow slowed/crippled, then chaos terminators (like 1-200) boarded it to take it over. There then was so much fighting/infighting that nobody won it and it was basically unusable. I believe it was a short story in an anthology perhaps.

All I know is that I've read the scenario before.

Also, dunno if you have convenient knowledge, but why did BL start printing in bigger-size books? Why aren't they keeping to the pocket novel format? When (if at all) will it come out in the smaller size? I so desperately want to read this book and the preceding one, but they are in the wrong size for the book shelf!

Ah, it's very different in Betrayer. It sounded more similar because I was making spoiler-free vague allusions.

As to the book thing, for once, I can actually shed some light on something worthwhile. The book trade, especially in the States, has - for want of a less melodramatic phrase - absolutely tanked. The physical book trade, that is. It's extremely unhealthy (at best) and switching to trade paperback format over mass-market paperback is taking place across the industry. Black Library moved with the industry in that regard.

The Horus Heresy series will still come out in the smaller size, specifically for the reason you mentioned: readers' bookshelves. As I understand it, rather than the traditional system of paperback coming out a year after the hardback, with the HH series, the hardbacks come out nine months early as Games Workshop exclusives, then six months early as trade paperbacks, then at their normal place in the schedule in mass-market size.

tl;dr -- When you see the hardbacks, it'll be nine months (instead of a year) until they're out in the usual series' size.

[Seahawk]

Okay cool, so I just spotted the trade paperback (8"x 6" or something like that) on the shelves last week, so that means I can reasonably expect the mass-market version in about September. Aww, so far away...

 

 

On that note, I updated our bibliography. We Ultramarines have had a LOT of BL books written about us! Spoiled for choices we are...

[Legatus]

On that note, I updated our bibliography. We Ultramarines have had a LOT of BL books written about us! Spoiled for choices we are...

 

And you say that as if it's a good thing...

[greatcrusade08]

im a big fan of mcNeills books, even though by admitting that i face the usual 'lashing' from my peers :P

 

i must admit though, the UM horus heresy stuff ive encountered thus far has been top notch

[Aqui]

Okay cool, so I just spotted the trade paperback (8"x 6" or something like that) on the shelves last week, so that means I can reasonably expect the mass-market version in about September. Aww, so far away...

 

 

On that note, I updated our bibliography. We Ultramarines have had a LOT of BL books written about us! Spoiled for choices we are...

 

Not to take the topic off topic, but last time I looked, the Successors could do with an update too (guess who ;) :lol: ).

 

On topic: I'm really, really far behind with the HH series (have finished Battle for the Abyss).  I could jump ahead to some of the books I really want to read, but I have this...thing where I have to read books in sequence (yes, I realise that the order the books are released are not necessarily the order in which the events actually unfold, but as I said - it's a thing and there is no logic to it :blink: ).  Good to know that books further on up the line are at the same written quality as they are at the start though.

 

Random question, and I figure that the answer is around and I've missed it, but is there an official answer to how long the HH lasted from start to finish?  I did read somewhere that it was around 10-20 years.  Not sure how accurate that is to be honest.

[Dosjetka]

I thought it was seven years. But I have no source to confirm that.