Betrayer - A review with an Ultramarines slant

[Captain Idaho]

im a big fan of mcNeills books, even though by admitting that i face the usual 'lashing' from my peers

i must admit though, the UM horus heresy stuff ive encountered thus far has been top notch

I'm enjoying Ultras books from the HH series. McNeil writes a good story, even though I'd prefer Ultras to not be so hung up over the Codex and actually use it as intended (as in, Calgar re-educates them).

Minor gripe; since returning to the Chapter, Ventris has done well.

[No Foes Remain]

Minor gripe; since returning to the Chapter, Ventris has done well.

 

Still a little off-topic, apologies: I agree, the only reason I took on his name is because he saw the bigger picture as it were. As Calgar said in the Chapter's Due, sticking to the Codex and its tactics while your enemy knows said tactics is never a good idea.

[Thantoes]

im a big fan of mcNeills books, even though by admitting that i face the usual 'lashing' from my peers

i must admit though, the UM horus heresy stuff ive encountered thus far has been top notch

As I am I, was great to meet him that one time.

I am behind in the HH stuff but have started to catch up. Just read Fear to Tread by James Swallow and have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it. His ability as a writer has come on in leaps and bounds.

[Legatus]

Off topic, but I have to:

As Calgar said in the Chapter's Due, sticking to the Codex and its tactics while your enemy knows said tactics is never a good idea.

 

*sigh* You'd think a book that was written with the specific threat of further Marine forces turning against the Imperium in mind would somehow discuss the possibility of fighting against former Imperial and thus Codex possessing Space Marines. The Codex Astartes was written with the expectation that in the future, some Chapters, who would naturally know the Codex Astartes, might turn against the Imperium. Surely it will have some wise words about how to engage such a foe?

[Hellrender]

Just getting back on topic, to <Betrayer>.

 

I loved it. And while reading it, i couldnt help but think back to the many many arguments on this subforum about how the Ultramarines are made to look in previous HH books. It was as if the author tried to counter each and every of those arguments. And i actually liked that. it was written well, explained well, and properly balanced between wins and losses. Definetly no Mary Sue syndrome here. 

I think my favorite part about the book was Khârn. I have always loathed the World Eaters and Khârn included. They felt boring and uninteresting. What surprised me, was that i really started to feel for Khârn. Something i never expected. To me, this was so extremely well done, that Khârn is now one of my favorite HH characters. At no point he felt naive (like certain other HH characters) or feel invincible. Khârn felt real. And more than that, i actually believed him to be a Space marine, which is not something many authors have made me believe before about other characters. So this was definetly my biggest surprise, and favorite part about the book.

 

 

The one thing that i did frown upon (slightly)

, was the contrast between the battles earlier in the book, and the space battle at the end. Like Cap. Idaho mentioned, the ease with which a mortal captain outmanouvred Ultramarines was slightly on the over the board side, and it was the only part of the book that had for me, unlogical events (on the part of the Ultramarines). Maybe it's me, but i didnt really understand why the boarding was nessecary.

 

 

In short, this book is now part of my favorites, alongside Prince of Crows (not really a book, but its awesome) and Angel Exterminatus (in which Perturabo and his Iron Warriors completly surprised me, which i liked a lot). I really do hope we get more stories of this quality. 

[No Foes Remain]

Off topic, but I have to:

As Calgar said in the Chapter's Due, sticking to the Codex and its tactics while your enemy knows said tactics is never a good idea.

 

*sigh* You'd think a book that was written with the specific threat of further Marine forces turning against the Imperium in mind would somehow discuss the possibility of fighting against former Imperial and thus Codex possessing Space Marines. The Codex Astartes was written with the expectation that in the future, some Chapters, who would naturally know the Codex Astartes, might turn against the Imperium. Surely it will have some wise words about how to engage such a foe?

Well if they did then why didn't the Ultramarines use those tactics during the Chapter's Due after they got beaten back several times before realising that the Iron Warriors were knowledge-able (not sure if thats a world or not) of their own tactics?

[Legatus]

Well if they did then why didn't the Ultramarines use those tactics during the Chapter's Due after they got beaten back several times before realising that the Iron Warriors were knowledge-able (not sure if thats a world or not) of their own tactics?

 

Obviously because to Graham McNeill the Codex is just this horribly restrictive and outdated book, which constantly fails, and which the Ultramarines, with brave Uriel Ventris' help, should learn to grow beyond. It has been McNeill's agenda throughout his work for BL to establish how insufficient and detrimental the Codex Astartes is. He uses the trope of the Codex advising something foolish and the hero having to go against it to prevail so many times, after the third or fourth story it just became comical. If it wasn't also so sad to see the identity of the Ultramarines torn apart.

 

On topic: I'll see if I can get my hands on Betrayer any time soon.

[Captain Idaho]

You'll love it. It's a great story.

[No Foes Remain]

 

Well if they did then why didn't the Ultramarines use those tactics during the Chapter's Due after they got beaten back several times before realising that the Iron Warriors were knowledge-able (not sure if thats a world or not) of their own tactics?

 

Obviously because to Graham McNeill the Codex is just this horribly restrictive and outdated book, which constantly fails, and which the Ultramarines, with brave Uriel Ventris' help, should learn to grow beyond. It has been McNeill's agenda throughout his work for BL to establish how insufficient and detrimental the Codex Astartes is. He uses the trope of the Codex advising something foolish and the hero having to go against it to prevail so many times, after the third or fourth story it just became comical. If it wasn't also so sad to see the identity of the Ultramarines torn apart.

 

On topic: I'll see if I can get my hands on Betrayer any time soon.

Fair point, though going back to your previous point if the Codex does have tactics to counter those with the knowledge of the Codex wouldn't renegade Chapters know of these tactics?

 

 

On topic: Like Aquilanus, I also have to read the books in order and am trying to get my hands on Shadows of Trechary and then Angel Exterminartus when it comes out for bog-standard paper back.

[Legatus]

Fair point, though going back to your previous point if the Codex does have tactics to counter those with the knowledge of the Codex wouldn't renegade Chapters know of these tactics?

 

It's probably not a "use these steps to outmanouver a Codex Chapter", and more of a "if the enemy knows your MO, try not to play into his hands". You know, pre-school basics of strategy.

[No Foes Remain]

 

Fair point, though going back to your previous point if the Codex does have tactics to counter those with the knowledge of the Codex wouldn't renegade Chapters know of these tactics?

 

It's probably not a "use these steps to outmanouver a Codex Chapter", and more of a "if the enemy knows your MO, try not to play into his hands". You know, pre-school basics of strategy.

Yeah, makes sense. They'd probably use common sense as well, if that still exists in 40k as its pretty rare now.

[Legatus]

To end that line of conversation here, I' going to check whether the local GW has the book in store. And what the local GW is like. (new city) But I'm not sure they will have english books there.

 

Edit: Meh, no luck.

[Blue Beetle]

I absolutely devoured this book.  It took me a day to read through and I could not put it down and I have never read through something so fast, not even a menu.  I loved so many aspects of this book it's difficult to pick out what was best.  If someone would kindly remind me how to post spoilers, I'd be happy to go into detail.  I sadly don't post much so remembering such things is difficult. 

[greatcrusade08]

i think the heresy lasted 7 years, although im not sure if thats includes the scouring; post death of horus, or not.

[Aqui]

i think the heresy lasted 7 years, although im not sure if thats includes the scouring; post death of horus, or not.

 

Thanks for that ^_^  The place I had read wasn't exactly reliable as a source (and I've forgotten where I had read it now anyway).  Seven years seems to be about right, given the events that have unfolded so far.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't include the Scouring. Guilliman is said to lead the Ultramarines for a hundred years after the Heresy (or possibly Scouring).

 

We've got to have a turning of the tide soon enough and we do have information of Guilliman destroying a large fleet on it's way to reinforce Horus so I'm sure we'll see the fortunes reversed soon enough ;)

[Wade Garrett]

Can the difference between the Codex as it was meant to be and the Codex as it appears in the Ventris novels be rationalized as ten thousand years of decay and superstition changing the Ultras from "The Codex's precepts should be internalised by a commander to guide his strategy" to "Gulliman wrote it. I believe it. That settles it."

 

Kind of like how the Wolves went from Executioners to the People's Chapter, or the Dark Angels went from paranoid jerks to...oh wait...

[Legatus]

It could be an explanation, but it would be a new one, not previously mentioned in the lore. Previously, the Ultramarines have been describes as one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters to this day. And they had been described as one of the strictest adherants to the Codex doctrine, which they adhere to to this day. To the casual observer the correlation between these two traits would have seemed to indicate that adhering to that doctrine would be advantageous and was partially the reason for their long lasting success. To McNeill, it seems the Ultramarines are so successfull inspite of their strict adherance to this outdated and restrictive doctrine. There are enough Chapters out there who while seeking guidance in the Codex do not feel obligated to adhere to every single detail. It stands to reason that such Chapters would be more successful than the Ultramarines if strict adherance to the Codex was a disadvantage. If the Ultramarines are still more successful even though they pursue a disadvantageous doctrine, then that would indicate that the Ultramarines as a Chapter were somehow inherently better than those other Chapters.

[Captain Idaho]

It was heavily implied in Rules of Engagement. Guilliman says so himself that the reason the Ultramarines failed in the final engagement was because they followed the Codex blindly.

 

There's a thought; when exactly is Betrayer set? It's post Calth and pre-Fear to Tread obviously, but is it pre-Rules of Engagement?

 

Oh yeah, A D-B seemed to dismiss the speculation we had that:

 

 

Guilliman was corrupted slowly by Kor Phaedron's knife attack

 

[No Foes Remain]

It could be an explanation, but it would be a new one, not previously mentioned in the lore. Previously, the Ultramarines have been describes as one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters to this day. And they had been described as one of the strictest adherants to the Codex doctrine, which they adhere to to this day. To the casual observer the correlation between these two traits would have seemed to indicate that adhering to that doctrine would be advantageous and was partially the reason for their long lasting success. To McNeill, it seems the Ultramarines are so successfull inspite of their strict adherance to this outdated and restrictive doctrine. There are enough Chapters out there who while seeking guidance in the Codex do not feel obligated to adhere to every single detail. It stands to reason that such Chapters would be more successful than the Ultramarines if strict adherance to the Codex was a disadvantage. If the Ultramarines are still more successful even though they pursue a disadvantageous doctrine, then that would indicate that the Ultramarines as a Chapter were somehow inherently better than those other Chapters.

But then in Chapter's Due there were mentions of Calgar and Severus (the first captain, not even going to try to spell his last name) of writing sections of the codex, so it stands to reason that the Ultramarines keep it updated with all the new threats popping up (Tau, 'Nids, 'Crons...).

[The Emperor's Champion]

I'll just not even start on the whole Graham McFail part of this thread... Suffice to say that I'm with Legatus on that one.



Instead, I'll answer the ongoing question! - 

• The Great Crusade lasted 200 years.
• The Horus Heresy lasted less than a decade.
• The Great Scouring lasted 7 years.

[Legatus]

It was heavily implied in Rules of Engagement. Guilliman says so himself that the reason the Ultramarines failed in the final engagement was because they followed the Codex blindly.

 

But then that was McNeills main point in pretty much every previous Ultramarines story he had written, so naturally he has the Primarch himself confirm that point at the first opportunity.

 

Perhaps we can split off the discussion on the merits of strict Codex adherance? You know I like to talk about that stuff, but it does not really have a lot to do with A D-Bs book.

 

 

Cpt Uriel Ventris: Yes, the Codex is indeed updated constantly with additional battle reports and treatises on newly encountered foes or situations by a lot of different contributors. It stands to reason that the whole "strictly following the Codex" thing has to be interpreted accordingly. During his lifetime, Guilliman had written the "core" treatise of the Codex Astartes, with the organisational and the core tactical doctrines. What has then been added over the past ten millennia are mainly treatises on specific battles or situations. So the Codex offers on the one hand the base concepts of organisational and tactical doctrine, and on the other hand thousands of years of written down experience in warfare against every possible foe. I would assume that the treatise by Chapter Master Examplus of the 'Emperor's Marines' Chapter on his battle against the Necrons in 973.M40 are not reqarded with quite the same reverence as the original texts by Guilliman and the other Primarchs that had been written ten thousand years ago.

[Wade Garrett]

If we're going to discuss the book, then may I state words on a computer screen are wholly inadequate for how happy I am that quoting Captain Ahab while tossing Harpoons at your enemy is now a perfectly valid 40k starship and Titan combat tactic?

[Marshal Rohr]

I think Sanguinius becoming the Emperor of Imperium Secundus is a plot line they will run with. FTT shows Sanguinius becoming Emperor if he lets his father face Horus alone and then kills Horus himself.

 

Not a bad story arc. I definitely like the angle that Horus always felt over shadowed by Sanguinius.

[Captain Idaho]

I am interested in just how that particular angle will play out I don't think it's going to be black and white, especially as we know Sanguinius ends up at Terra somehow!