The Emperor's Champion Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Is this a plot that people are imagining, or is this a plot the books actually touch on? Because this sounds silly and makes no sense to me, and I imagine it's peple just imagining things, but then I'm only half way through Fulgrim... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Well two things make me think this. Fear to Tread and the cover of Unremembered Empire. Fear to Tread because it lays out Horus' insecurity about Sanguinius. Includes a portion of the novel that describes what actually happens to Sanguinius if he stands up to Horus and what would happen if he doesn't. Since those are the only futures revealed I'd say its an indicator of what the author is foreshadowing. The cover of Unremembered Empire because it has Sanguinius being poopy faced while Guilliman raises his hand. Now, I don't find it silliest in the slightest because Sanguinius is and always has been the most loved Primarch by the Imperium at large. They don't have a Dornala, Khanala, or Guillimanala, they have a Sanguinala and its the most important holiday aside from the Feast of the Emperors Ascension. Having this be a new angle to the Heresy is neither detracting not stupid since ALL the other Primarchs at this point are doing their own thing. The Lion has blown off Guillimans attempt to concentrate forces, Russ is who knows where doing whatever it is he wants, the Khan is gone but shows up when it counts, Corax is out and about trying his hardest to neither help Dorn OR Guilliman. The loyalists need somebody to rally behind and Sanguinius is the guy. Now because it showed him being at Terra and dying or not being at Terra and inheiriting the Emperorship, I'm going to assume Guillimans plan keeps Sanguinius away from Terra and Sanguinius goes to Terra anyway knowing he will die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 i like the way the rumours have changed. first it was everyone saying Guilliman was a douche trying to set himself up as the new emperor, now they are saying hes trying to set up Sanguinius I much prefer the latter tbh, but im not sold on that yet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Did Guilliman witness the alternate futures? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Probably best to keep this discussion based upon the book Betrayer and it's events and potential consequences and if someone wants to make another thread speculating around Guilliman's big plans they can. Oh, I observed elsewhere a few people talk about who the title is aimed at, making the obvious connection around Khârn and even Erebus . I wondered if it could even be; ...a reference to Lorgar betraying Angron with Daemonhood when he said he'd "cure" him. Alternatively could it be reference to Angron's feelings towards the Emperor, which started the whole thing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346773 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 yeah there are allot of candidates for who the title refers to Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Not sure how much can be considered spoiler... I think it is about the betrayal that Angron feels with the Emperor. Khârn does not earn his title until Skalathrax, and in this book is a very "honourable" captain. Altough Erebus is a likely candidate, the novel is much more about Angron/Emperor, where as Erebus is his usual self. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3346818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Lorgar betray ANGRON? What book did you read? Aurelian saved his brother, and granted him the greatest gift he could...not a possession, like that which broke Argel Tal, but a true symbiosis and ascension. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3350517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 16, 2013 Author Share Posted April 16, 2013 Well it's simple. He gave false promise to save Angron but instead turned him into a monster slaved to a God, then chaines him up in the basement of a ship. Angron didn't like being a slave or tool of anyone remember? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3350535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 from the way i see it, the way to actually "save" angron would be to simply let him die, free him from the pain and the guilt i would actually say that giving him immortality is the ultimate torture for him Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3350577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Turned him into a monster enslaved to a god, you say? Lorgar: "Is that so different from how Angron has lived his life these last decades?" Not to mention that daemonhood seems to come with an absolute lack of regrets, among other things. I'd say Daemon Angron has a better deal than the mortal. Which is not said as a Chaos fanboy pushing corruption like a controlled substance, but in recognition that mortal Angron's lot in life well and truly sucked, to the point that being changed to an immortal incarnation of hate and rage counts as a step up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3350848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Not to mention that daemonhood seems to come with an absolute lack of regrets, among other things. I'd say Daemon Angron has a better deal than the mortal."SEEMS TO" being the key words there. Horus would utterly disagree. In the moments of his death, as the power of The Emperor flooded into Horus, the Chaos Gods abandoned their posession of Horus and fled from him. This finally left the REAL Horus once more in control of his body and, in utter despair and horror at the realization of all that he had done, Horus pleaded with The Emperor to finish him off, knowing he wouldn't be able to resist the lure of Chaos if he was allowed to survive. Magnus would likely disagree as well, he's not remotely happy he was forced to serve Tzeentch, and he hates that, despite all that they sacrificed, his Legion has been horribly messed up. Chaos is all lies and betrayal. The followers of Chaos are just the ones who fell for its tricks the hardest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3350901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 16, 2013 Author Share Posted April 16, 2013 Turned him into a monster enslaved to a god, you say? Lorgar: "Is that so different from how Angron has lived his life these last decades?" Not to mention that daemonhood seems to come with an absolute lack of regrets, among other things. I'd say Daemon Angron has a better deal than the mortal. Which is not said as a Chaos fanboy pushing corruption like a controlled substance, but in recognition that mortal Angron's lot in life well and truly sucked, to the point that being changed to an immortal incarnation of hate and rage counts as a step up. Have you read the book? Just curious and meant as a dig, because in it Angron is very firmly against domination and slavery, so turning Angron into a being even more subservient than he ever was to the Emperor was a kick in the teeth. I don't know how anyone can read it and feel like "yeah sure, Angron is so happy come the end of it". And the end of the book shows Angron isn't exactly happy. Lorgar turned Angron into a weapon of war to be unleashed, little more than a caged animal. He even says that only Angron is able to stop Sanuinius (after Horus) and he's needed for that reason. Things may and probably will change, but Angron is not a happy bunny at exactly what has happened to him. That to me is the great tragedy of Angron. He was tormented in life and his only release was a different type of torture. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3350961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Indeed, I have read the book. Where I take issue with your view is that in my opinion, Angron was made into an animal suited only for slaughter decades before Lorgar's warpsong, when those infernal machines were driven into his skull. To me, the main differences between the daemon and the man are that the man was a tormented soul, hateful and haunted by the ghosts of his dead comrades and what he could have been had he not received the implants. The daemon has none of that. It feels nothing besides the burning purity of rage and vengeance. All the regret, all the sorrow has been seared away by the touch of Kharnath. You'd say it's slavery...Lorgar would say he freed Angron from the harshest chains of all, those of the past. Magnus might sulk over his fate, but as a counter example, Fulgrim eagerly sought out daemonhood and revels in it. Which of them is more deluded and pitiful is an...interesting question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 To me, the main differences between the daemon and the man are that the man was a tormented soul, hateful and haunted by the ghosts of his dead comrades and what he could have been had he not received the implants. The daemon has none of that. It feels nothing besides the burning purity of rage and vengeance. All the regret, all the sorrow has been seared away by the touch of Kharnath. You'd say it's slavery...Lorgar would say he freed Angron from the harshest chains of all, those of the past. Except that Horus himself proves that that's not true. Whatever the Chaos-drugged surface mind of a possessed person might outwardly say/do/think, the true untainted mind of the person apparently still exists buried within and is helplessly forced to witness and endure whatever the Chao-warped part does. If they happen to hate what the possessed part does (like Horus and Angron), then they're going to be quite tormented in their own bodies, at their "own" actions. Almost like an Alien Hand Syndrome thing... If they happen to be a lunatic that embraced the stuff that their demonically corrupted surface mind does, then it's probably pointless trying to tell where the Chaos corruption ends and the original lunatic begins. It's just an extension of their messed up mind at that point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Hmmm....Horus gets mind blasted by the "most powerful psychic force in the history of life" (Ingethel the Ascended on the Emeperor), then suddenly regrets every decision he ever made during the Heresy and weeps at how terrible Chaos is. Nope. Nothing suspicious here, and absolutely proof that all the Chaos Space Marines are crying on the inside. Deep inside. Somewhere. Maybe. And Angron was already a lunatic who embraced what the Butcher's Nails did to his mind ("They give me peace...they grant me serenity") to the point of demanding that all his Legion get them. Is Khorne's favor so different? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 17, 2013 Author Share Posted April 17, 2013 Argel Tal is an example of how Chaos corruption tormented a soul. He longed for death. Just because Lorgar said/thought he was freeing Angron doesn't make it so. Chaos corruption is anything but humane and benign. He freed Angron of the Nails, not the ghosts of his past, that is all. Where is the quote that says Angron no longer cared about the past? He gave false hope to Angron, who even went on to join his men in the gladiator cages. His hope revealed a shadow of what he could be. Then it was taken from him and Lorgar imprisoned him in chains. You've said yourself that his existance before and after Daemonhood was not so different so that would make it clear that Lorgar's promise of salvation was betrayal. No more being a slave to the Nails or the Emperor, now he was a slave to Chaos and kept the rage of the Nails too boot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Hmmm....Horus gets mind blasted by the "most powerful psychic force in the history of life" (Ingethel the Ascended on the Emeperor), then suddenly regrets every decision he ever made during the Heresy and weeps at how terrible Chaos is. Nope. Nothing suspicious here, and absolutely proof that all the Chaos Space Marines are crying on the inside. Deep inside. Somewhere. Maybe. Right, because when The Emperor suddenly snapped and channeled the power to annihilate Horus and the Chaos Gods into Horus' body, he was trying to make Horus sad. No. That's just not even a type of logic. The Emperor was in the process of obliterating Horus' essence entirely, and the moment the Chaos Gods fled in terror from The Emperor's attack the real Horus snapped into consciousness. It's very simple. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted April 17, 2013 Author Share Posted April 17, 2013 Where is the source for that information? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 @Captain Idaho The difference being that the Nails were killing him and Khorne made him immortal. As for the regrets thing, I was just going by every other daemon we've seen that was once human, none of them seem to care about their old lives very much. Well, there's Magnus, but I'm starting to wonder if he counts as a daemon yet, given that his transformation was nothing like Fulgrim's, Angron's, or even the Warsmith from Storm of Iron, and his presence isn't accompanied by the waves of corruption that that emanate from any of the latter (water turned to blood and bulkhead to flesh). And there's Fulgrim's little rant in Angel Exterminatus that "I AM THE FIRST TO BE A DAEMON! MEEE!". But that's coming from Fulgrim. Nuff said. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 You're both awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 yeah but fulgrim is different, angron was turned into a deamon by the ritual, fulgrim was posessed by the deamon in the laer sword, very different situations from that point on it was never the real fulgrim that was actually talking, just the sword deamon speaking through him, his consciousness was trapped inside his own head, unable to control his own actions or do anything about them, just able to scream in horror at the terrible things he was doing (the first of which was decapitating manus) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351567 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Well, when Fulgrim allowed himself to be possessed he instantly regretted it. His consciousness is trapped in his body, forced to watch while the daemon does unspeakable things. Horus even realized this and I thought he vowed to one day find a fix for it and remove the daemon so that he'd have his brother returned to him. That all happened in Fulgrim. As for the bit about Horus coming back to reality and regretting what he'd done, that's in Horus Heresy: Visions of Death: "Driven by all the force of his rage and ain and hatred the Emperor willed Horus's death. He sensed the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn. As they did so, sanity returned to the Warmaster. The Emperor saw the realization of the atrocities he had committed flicker across Horus's fae. Tears glistened there. Through the torrent of the Emperor's psychic assault, Horus howled in pain and remorse. He painfull uttered his last words: "I have been...a fool. I was so wrong...everything is ruined. I have betrayed you...my father. I do not ask for forgiveness...end my torment...kill me now! I am too weak to resist them...they call to me...please end this."" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Guys, if you haven't read "The Reflection Crack'd" or "Angel Exterminatus "...to avoid spoilers I'll just say the Phoenician 's status is more complicated and leave it at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Guys, if you haven't read "The Reflection Crack'd" or "Angel Exterminatus "...to avoid spoilers I'll just say the Phoenician 's status is more complicated and leave it at that. Coming away with massive Chaos Stockholm Syndrome does not refute that ascending to Daemonhood often traps the mind of the "person" into a screaming hellish nightmare. The alluded events are reminiscent of the original fluff where Fulgrim was converted through massive drug-fueled-blood-orgies until he snapped and thought "tentacles for everyone" made a mighty fine modus operendai. Some examples of "buyers remorse" with that whole Daemon business include Fulgrim in his initial corruption (Novel Fulgrim and the Visions Art Books), Horus at the end with the Emperor, a short story in one of the old anthologies where the human is LITERALLY screaming in the back of the Daemons minds, Argel Tal and his merry band, and the lovely little fluff piece in the 3.5 Chaos Book when some addled fool draws a Daemon blade. Angron has always been a blind hypocrite. He hates domination yet uses the conqueror's tools of oppression, the Butcher's Nails, upon his own Legion CONTRARY to the explicit orders of the Emperor to quit that nonsense. Turning to Khorne was just one more step in a long line of foolish choices. Now, with the Nails in his head he had a bit of an out, but there is a limit. Oh, joining the Heresy (ostensibly) because the Emperor had turned into a "tyrant"...but throwing the galaxy under the bus to be eternally enslaved to the whim of capricious Dark Gods is A-Ok? *slow clap* And Lorgar is hardly a valuable font of insight. Fights for an empire with an explicitly secular and rationalist goal, studied its history including the elimination of places of worship, witness the secular education promoted throughout the empire, had the object of his veneration repeatedly tell him in person that he is not a god just made of awesome is all, and Lorgar still acts shocked and hurt when all else fails and a violent yet restrained example had to be made to get through to the Word Bearer Primarch. Then Lorgar listens to the "father figure" who openly admits to lying to him for his entire life and undermining his works behind his back, shacks up with the first bloodthirsty deities he finds over the objections and warnings of his own sons, spitting in the face of his previous petty whine of having to find (paraphrase) deities worthy of worship because the Big E was such a horrible tyrant. Lorgar's POV might be...shall we say...a tad biased and lacking in clarity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273617-betrayer-a-review-with-an-ultramarines-slant/page/4/#findComment-3351609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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