Next Space Wolf codex?

[Jarl Deathwolf]

But... I want to out monstrous creature the tyranids... Ice Trolls, ho! Or, even better, a kraken.

[Grimtooth]

But... I want to out monstrous creature the tyranids... Ice Trolls, ho! Or, even better, a kraken.

We already do with the Redmaw.

[-Volsung-]

Dunno if this was asked yet, but any rumors as to who might be writing the codex? Cuz if we end up doing some Grey Knight Kill-the-Battle-Sisters-and-Bathe-in-their-blood shenanigan, that's not gonna fly...

 

Oh man, imagine if Dan Abnett wrote the fluff for the SW Codex. Or Dembski-Boden... 

[Valerian]

I haven't heard any rumors, but I'd be happy to have Cruddace work ours. Kelly did a great job with the 5e version, but if he does it back-to-back it'll likely be too stagnant. Ward did reasonably well with Blood Angels and Grey Knights, but really screwed the fluff, and did a poor job of achieving internal balance.

 

Of course, I'd prefer it if they'd let me give him a hand with it. Just my druthers.

 

ADB and Abnett won't help with background material. Those guys are BL workers, and not involved in Studio work.

 

V

[-Volsung-]

 

ADB and Abnett won't help with background material. Those guys are BL workers, and not involved in Studio work.

 

V

 

You know whats interesting? Back in the day, it seems to me like BL writers depended on the codex and campaign events to shape their stories. 

 

You can read any Blood Angel codex or Ultramarines, and you would likely not spot any mention of Leonatos or Uriel Ventris (unless I am mistaken).

 

Now, it seems BL has a way more heavy impact on codex writing, even to the point where codex writers will just outright lean on BL stories to buff up their fluff section. But then, seems to me the codex writers can still overturn BL if they so desire.

 

If you ask me, might as well get the BL superstars doing the Codex work rather than be at the mercy of it.

 

Take ADB, for example. He scrapped his whole version of The Emperor's Gift when Codex Grey Knight came out, and changed all the backgrounds and stuff. I dunno bout you, but reading that author's words at the beginning, I sense a lil resentment there. Rightfully so, if that was the case.

 

Just a thought

[logun]

Word around the campfire (I have sources) is that SW will be getting a monstrous creature - giant wolf, much bigger than a TWC

 

oh god no, terrible idea if there is any truth to it. 

[Valerian]

 

 

ADB and Abnett won't help with background material. Those guys are BL workers, and not involved in Studio work.

 

V

 

You know whats interesting? Back in the day, it seems to me like BL writers depended on the codex and campaign events to shape their stories. 

 

You can read any Blood Angel codex or Ultramarines, and you would likely not spot any mention of Leonatos or Uriel Ventris (unless I am mistaken).

 

Now, it seems BL has a way more heavy impact on codex writing, even to the point where codex writers will just outright lean on BL stories to buff up their fluff section. But then, seems to me the codex writers can still overturn BL if they so desire.

Do you have examples of BL influence on the codexes?  I'm just curious, more than challenging you.  At least for ours (Space Wolves), I frankly don't see it.  With just a few adjustments, the background material in the 5e dex are the same as was released in 3e, and 2e, and late RT.

 

 

If you ask me, might as well get the BL superstars doing the Codex work rather than be at the mercy of it.

 

Take ADB, for example. He scrapped his whole version of The Emperor's Gift when Codex Grey Knight came out, and changed all the backgrounds and stuff. I dunno bout you, but reading that author's words at the beginning, I sense a lil resentment there. Rightfully so, if that was the case.

 

Just a thought

 

Tell me about it; he admitted to me that his protagonist was going to be named Valerian, but he had to change the name when Inquisitor Valeria was introduced as a new special character in the GK dex.  Talk about being disappointed, especially as Grey Knights are my second major army.

 

V

[frostclaw222]

The Redmaw should be as close as we come to monstrous critters. 

 

As for Black Library types actually working on the codex, I think that's a new level of wishlisting. However, they most definitely inform the codex. Prospero Burns definitely influenced the present dex; it isn't just a one-way thing, where BL has to revise to suit an inbound dex update. Besides, I think AD-B did a stellar job on Emperor's Gift as it stands.  

 

I'd like to see relics that actually make sense for the Wolves. Ulrik's helm is a good example. I think they got that one right already. Obviously, since it's his, there'll have to be other ones added, but that's about what I'd like to see. Maybe the Belt of Russ becomes a relic, too, after some tweaking? You could do the banner of the fall of Prospero (anti-psyker bonuses plus morale/attack bonuses), some relic runic armor, a legendary frost weapon (possibly one belonging to one of Russ's original Wolf Guard), etc. If you plunder the fluff appropriately, the relic list writes itself. 

 

Sagas we've talked about, but what about Warlord Traits? Those could be very, very interesting, if we had our own, and could allow for some really whacked out synergy with relics, sagas, and different builds of units. 

 

I don't know. I see a lot of potential in a new dex, and not a lot to cause concern. With the new Stalker/Hunter tanks, a little flakk sprinkles, and some expansion and improvement of what is already present, I think Wolves can do competitive and fluffy at the same time fairly easily. And as far as the flavor fluff goes, Wolves have been one of the few armies that they haven't screwed the fluff up on over the editions (aside from those of us who think the jump pack and teleport prohibitions are bunk, and those of us who don't like Thunder Wolves, of course). It's good, matured, stable fluff. Almost not Ward-able. 

 

One little fluffy twist I'd like to see is that Iron Priests can swap their regular gun servitors for cyber wolves with gun mounts or other modifications. That way, whether the IP is on a bike or a thunder wolf, the wolves can keep up with him. I'd also like to see the beasts of the Under-Fang, as Chris Wraight described in The Battle of the Fang included as optional wargear add-ons for our venerable dreadnoughts. 

 

I don't think we need centurions. Heck, I don't want them. I think Lone Wolves cover the same role the assault ones do, and Long Fangs do the same for the devastator variety. The AAA tanks would be nice, though, and with their rules, might actually make some folks choose them in lieu of Long Fangs in certain local and tournament metas. 

 

I'd like to see Ragnar get EW, just so he can actually shake off a lascannon hit. Might make him a little too powerful, though. I'd also like to see a SC Rune Priest, who, like Ulrik, allows for some sort of bonus to a non-SC character in the list, like maybe master-crafting a given Wolf Guard's chosen weapon, or something. The fluff used to suggest that the Wolves had a very tight relationship with Mars; I think that's one of the big growth areas for the new dex, as at present Iron Priests are the dustiest models in our collections. 

[-Volsung-]

Do you have examples of BL influence on the codexes?  I'm just curious, more than challenging you.  At least for ours (Space Wolves), I frankly don't see it.  With just a few adjustments, the background material in the 5e dex are the same as was released in 3e, and 2e, and late RT.

 

 

V

 

Oh most def, check out the new Chaos Codex.

 

The entire history of the Horus Heresy is pulled from the BL novels. Codices previous to that had about a page of history on the Horus Heresy, and it basically was the same lil scphiel: Horus was corrupted, tricked or swayed his more sinister brothers to join him, massacred at Isvaan, took the fight to the Emperor, besieged Terra, fought and killed Sanguinus, killed by Emperor, everyone ran to the Eye of Terror

 

Now, they mention the Eisenstein and all that stuff that never existed within previous Chaos codices, only in BL publication. 

[frostclaw222]

Valerian, Prospero definitely had an impact on the new Wolves dex. And will again, I think. 

[-Volsung-]

As for Black Library types actually working on the codex, I think that's a new level of wishlisting.

Hah, right?

All i'm saying is, with all due disrespect, is that codex developers can really make a decent game and formulate some good rules. But let the dudes with the New York Bestseller under their belts do the writing, you know?

As Sebastian Thor's 17th Litanies of Common Sense reminds us: "Leave it to the professionals, eh?"

So again, to reiterate, plz plz plz no bathing in the blood of Sisters of Battle for us, yeah?

Now bathing with Sisters of Battle, tho, that's perfectly ok!

[frostclaw222]

I think we'll see the BL guys' (and gal's) influence ported in some form. They might not be actually drafting and editing it, but it'll get there. I mean, heck, Graham's writing influenced the 3E necron dex, and quite a bit of the grimdark that's getting grimmerdarker in the novels is starting to influence the narrative in the main rulebook. 

 

It's my hope that we'll start seeing greater cross-connection, too. But, personally, I'd rather see Aaron, Dan, Graham, Chris, and the rest working on their novels and shorts, and the dex authors paying attention to the thrust of the material when sitting down to update the dex. That's most efficient, and gets us everything we want sooner than having the BL crowd setting their efforts aside to reach in and jam some fluff into a draft codex. 

 

Now, if we look at the BL editors and GW Games Development lead designer(s), there's where you might find flex. I mean, technically, those guys could form some sort of ad hoc 'continuity and coherency board,' whose purpose is to make sure rules reflect fluff, spare the sister-slash-n-slathering, etc. 

 

Besides, if you bring the BL stable in, which author do you use? The one who's written most about the given army? The one who's written most recently about the given army? I mean, for Ultras, is it Graham or Dan? For Wolves, is it Dan, Chris, or Bill King? And if you say 'whichever is available,' you lose fluff coherency. 

 

Heck, the editors might even spot a few typos, and the lead designer might notice a broken combo, while they're at it. 

 

I know...that's crazy talk. ;)

[Valerian]

Valerian, Prospero definitely had an impact on the new Wolves dex. And will again, I think.

Frostclaw, this has me intrigued...in what way, specifically? I frankly don't see it. There is very little difference between the 5e dex and previous Space Wolves fluff. The only thing new was the addition of Thunderwolves as a playable unit/piece of wargear and a few new special characters. Where do you see Prospero Burns influence?

 

Volsung, provided good examples from newest CSM book (which I don't have), so point taken that there is some influence from the BL on Studio products, but I don't see it in our latest Dex.

 

V

[Valerian]

As for Black Library types actually working on the codex, I think that's a new level of wishlisting.

Hah, right?

All i'm saying is, with all due disrespect, is that codex developers can really make a decent game and formulate some good rules. But let the dudes with the New York Bestseller under their belts do the writing, you know?

As Sebastian Thor's 17th Litanies of Common Sense reminds us: "Leave it to the professionals, eh?"

So again, to reiterate, plz plz plz no bathing in the blood of Sisters of Battle for us, yeah?

Now bathing with Sisters of Battle, tho, that's perfectly ok!

I actually disagree with your hypothesis quite a bit here. Just because they're bestsellers doesn't mean that they're actually decent writers, it just means there is a market for this IP, and they've got the market cornered. So, all the GW fans go out and buy up everything written by BL folks, regardless of how good it actually is.

Don't forget that all of the foundation for that IP came from the guys in the Studio; they're the ones that wrote all of the significant aspects of the universe backstory, and the BL folks are just filling in the gaps, and churning out as many books as they can possibly put on the market every year.

Now, I'm not saying that they wouldn't do a good job, but I doubt they'd do much better than what we already generally get. Furthermore, they're already busy churning out the pulp fiction, so they don't have the time to mess with codex work, which is Studio-designers' responsibility.

V

[frostclaw222]

Valerian,

 

The decidedly "grittier" theme put into the 'demo army' for this dex, the sagas system, the Lone Wolves...all of these seemed to me to be influenced by the darker edge Abnett gave to the Rout in his novel. Heck, even the amped up Rune Priests might have some sort of basis in the Othere Wyrdmake/Ahriman connection that Graham and Dan built out in the two novels. I'll confess: those two novels and Battle of the Fang made me not only redouble my efforts on my Wolves, but also want to start a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army with Prosperine Spireguard. 

 

I mean, look at the BL fluff we had before those books. King's and Lightner's Ragnar cycle was admittedly less developed and more campy. It was Space Vikings, whereas this new incarnation is definitely more savage Norse-influenced gengineered post-humans with few compunctions about how to bring about the demise of their foes so long as it is swift, glorious, and comprehensive. 

 

But, hey, that's just my take. Your mileage may in fact vary. 

[Grimtooth]

Just read Battle of the Fang again last night. Wait for it, wait for it,.............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Venerable Dreads in HQ spot with Beasts of Underfang as wargear purchase.

 

BOOM, that just happened!

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Some excellent ideas .... Games Workshop should take look here

[A D-B]

 

Don't forget that all of the foundation for that IP came from the guys in the Studio; they're the ones that wrote all of the significant aspects of the universe backstory, and the BL folks are just filling in the gaps, and churning out as many books as they can possibly put on the market every year.

 

It doesn't really work like that. I mean, why would it be that way 'round? As an example, I write incredibly slowly, certainly slower than most other authors I know, whether they work in IP fiction or not. Why would it be BL churning out as many books as possible, rather than the studio churning out codices and supplements as fast as possible? Why wouldn't it be both, or neither?

 

Also, there's less of a line between "the studio" and "Black Library", these days. There's Publishing, which includes employees and freelancers, and that's about it. The Grey Knight situation categorically wouldn't happen these days. When the Black Legion supplement was being written, I was sent several progress drafts, and my feedback in terms of where the novel series was going and what the Black Legion was going to be (among other things) ended up changing a pretty huge chunk of it. There's a lot of communication these days. There has to be, since Publishing has massively upped its release load, in terms of codices and supplements.

 

Besides, looking at it realistically, you could just as easily say that the novels and Forge World are doing the significant and deep aspects of the universe, with all the detail, and the studio is rehashing the same stuff from every edition and codex, only with new toys. I'm not saying that's true, but do you see what I mean? Phrasing is everything.

 

And joking aside, the "significant aspects of the universe backstory" were all written years ago. None of those game designers work in the studio now, so having a game designer badge right now isn't some automatic arbiter of quality background material.

[Urauloth]

The more I think about the possibilities of a new codex the more I'm inclined to think that "this one is fine and I really don't need a new one at all" because as much as I'd love to see full-colour art and new plastics, the thought of fluff ruination and awful gimmick units are kind of alarming. This is one of my favourite codices in terms of fluff and I'd really hate to see anything... happen to it.

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

Its a "living" game universe if looked from a fluff perspective. Way different from a historical based wargame. So we just have to get used to change. If GW changes winning formulas to losing ones, and the Company starts losing they will change it back again.

[-Volsung-]

Besides, looking at it realistically, you could just as easily say that the novels and Forge World are doing the significant and deep aspects of the universe, with all the detail, and the studio is rehashing the same stuff from every edition and codex, only with new toys. I'm not saying that's true, but do you see what I mean? Phrasing is everything.

Which is what I'm sayin, or the studio piggy-backing supplemental contents from BL (or Forgeworld). That's just my view of it.

No doubt you can't confirm or deny it. No worries, probably would cause all kinds of drama at work.

But... now that you've posted here...

It's safe to assume you've read some of our comments. And since you've informed us that the line between studio and BL is blurred, now it's all on your shoulders! If you see the Space Wolf codex dev at the water cooler, chase him down and bark and howl at him if necessary! No fluff for us, we're counting on you, Brother Bowden!

[Deathscream]

I gleaned from a  rumor based site, here on the internet, that the chaos supplement for the Thousand Sons will include a heavy anti Space Wolves theme and be released close to the release of our new dex. Seems like that alone is a good indication that Prospero will be yet again, a strong influence in the creating of the new book.

The same site claims that we get the new book in the 2nd quarter of 2014. I am just repeating what I have read, not what I think is, and or will be the case.

 

End of Line

[Rift Blade]

It kinda makes sense really. Releasing our new Dex & a supplement for one of our biggest opponents about the same time. "Forging a narrative" anyone?!?!??!?!! As I said before to, the Horus Heresy Prospero Burns is rumoured to be out roughly the same time. THat's a pretty BIG narrative. Anyways, can only hope it's true & that they  just fine tune things & don't do any major changes. If so, well, like I said already, SSSSOOOOOOO BROOOOKE!!!!LOL!!!

[Valerian]

AD-B, thanks for coming by to weigh in here; it is always a pleasure to get your perspective on the matters we discuss. Especially as an insider who is speaking from experience, and not just the rest of us lot and our theory-mongering (of which I'm as guilty as anyone).

Don't forget that all of the foundation for that IP came from the guys in the Studio; they're the ones that wrote all of the significant aspects of the universe backstory, and the BL folks are just filling in the gaps, and churning out as many books as they can possibly put on the market every year.

It doesn't really work like that. I mean, why would it be that way 'round? As an example, I write incredibly slowly, certainly slower than most other authors I know, whether they work in IP fiction or not. Why would it be BL churning out as many books as possible, rather than the studio churning out codices and supplements as fast as possible? Why wouldn't it be both, or neither?

As far as making money for the company, I think it actually would be both churning out as quickly as possible - that's the product that's being sold, so both aspects need to produce. My comment in context was intended to dispute the idea that was put forth (I believe by Volsung) that BL authors would do a better job of writing the background/fluff portions of the codices, and he mentioned bestseller status and being a professional author as evidence of that; I disagree with that being a true statement. I can think of many examples of bestsellers who have exceptionally poor pieces of work, as I'm sure you can as well.

Also, there's less of a line between "the studio" and "Black Library", these days. There's Publishing, which includes employees and freelancers, and that's about it. The Grey Knight situation categorically wouldn't happen these days. When the Black Legion supplement was being written, I was sent several progress drafts, and my feedback in terms of where the novel series was going and what the Black Legion was going to be (among other things) ended up changing a pretty huge chunk of it. There's a lot of communication these days. There has to be, since Publishing has massively upped its release load, in terms of codices and supplements.

That is good to hear for us hobbyists; there is almost nothing as frustrating (as frustration over a game can be, anyway) than when an author "screws up" a piece of established fluff. Perhaps some of those aren't really screw-ups, but might be intentional retcons, but as consumers of the product we are left guessing and often disappointed.

Besides, looking at it realistically, you could just as easily say that the novels and Forge World are doing the significant and deep aspects of the universe, with all the detail, and the studio is rehashing the same stuff from every edition and codex, only with new toys. I'm not saying that's true, but do you see what I mean? Phrasing is everything.

I actually agree with this. The Studio at this point is largely just rehashing the same material in each new version of the codex, with some new toys and new material. The 5e codex has the same materiel that were in the Wolves of Fenris article from WD246, released in conjunction with the 3e Minidex, which is the same as what was in the 2e codex, which is the same as were in the Wolves of Fenris article from WD156 in the late RT era. There have been very little as far as major changes in any of that, and I, for one, appreciate the consistency in the Wolves. Now the side-stories in each of those have changed over the years, and more gets added, but it largely the same product. It would feel very odd (in my humble opinion) if the 6e codex came out with references to "the Rout", "Varangi", and the "Vlka Fenryka".

And joking aside, the "significant aspects of the universe backstory" were all written years ago. None of those game designers work in the studio now, so having a game designer badge right now isn't some automatic arbiter of quality background material.

As stated above, I agree that all of that IP was written years ago, by folks many of which are long gone. The point is that all/much of that is still valid and being used in modern codices. I'm certainly not arguing that being a Studio designer alone means an individual automatically can skillfully create any new material of quality - the additional detail to the Grey Knights that Mat Ward provided in their 5e codex is certainly proof of that; many old Grey Knights fans are still looking to lynch him for that travesty.

So, all that being said, I have two questions for you since you have graciously joined the conversation:

1. Would BL authors ever be tasked/allowed to provide input to codex development? In other words, could you possibly have a hand in providing any background material to a 6e Space Wolves codex? I guess the answer to that is yes, since you stated you helped to steer the direction of the Black Legion supplement. But, is that a new thing with the advent of 6e? I'm assuming that it wasn't done before.

and,

2. Was there significant influence of Prospero Burns, or other BL novels, on the 5e version of the SW codex? I frankly don't see it, but would be very interested to hear from you on whether Phil Kelly did attempt to incorporate PB themes or ideas.

EDIT:

oh, and,

3. If you know who is working on the next SW codex, and you please have him contact me? I want to review a draft copy to ensure that he isn't going to publish a dissappointment.

Regards,

V

[Valerian]

I mean, look at the BL fluff we had before those books. King's and Lightner's Ragnar cycle was admittedly less developed and more campy. It was Space Vikings, whereas this new incarnation is definitely more savage Norse-influenced gengineered post-humans with few compunctions about how to bring about the demise of their foes so long as it is swift, glorious, and comprehensive.

Frostclaw, this is just comparing new BL to old BL, though. Agreed that old William King novels were campy "Space Vikings", but that didn't reflect on the Studio work. If you go back and look at the old codices, WD articles, and stories, they were all about gritty/grimdark Space Wolves. I didn't see 5e work as being signficantly different from any of the earlier stuff. Did ask AD-B his perspective on this though, and am looking forward to his response.

 

V