Next Space Wolf codex?

[frostclaw222]

Darnath Lysander received the extra wound because he spent a century MIA and came back all Billy Badass. I think Vulcan and Kor'sharro didn't get it because of what else they bring to the table for their chapters, as is the case with Helbrecht and the Orbital Barrage ability. There was some give-and-take done for balance's sake, methinks. Now, to be fair, this could just be more arbitrary, slipshod design, but I don't think so. Not familiar enough with Pedro's new rules to speak to his situation (no Codex here on my little tropical island yet), but I imagine a similar situation would explain his lacking the fourth wound, as well. 

 

Ragnar's big problem isn't needing a fourth wound. What he needs is Eternal Warrior. Between his invulnerable save and the amount of melee pain he can lay down, if I were facing him, I'd be las spamming him the moment he came in range, to one-shot him. But then, I've been griping about that oversight for more than a little while. 

 

I can go either way on Wolf Priests. As I see it, so long as they can perform their apothecary duties, even Zealot USR is enough for me, as it'd provide a balance. But, sure, I'd love to see him a little beefier, but maybe that's another spot where a Saga could come into play. For instance, you could upgrade Zealot or Preferred Enemy to something better through selection of a specific Saga. 

 

I can see Rune Priests with biomancy and pyromancy, as well as the Fenrisian Elemental (bum name, but you know what I mean) groups. Divination I think is a gimme, since they're, you know, actually rune-casters and stuff. Biomancy I'd love to see them get, but I wonder if it wouldn't make the Wolves a little too scary. Telekinesis could go either way. 

 

Honestly, I'd like to see a hybrid approach, where we get BRB discipline access where it makes sense, but keep a discipline or two of our own. However, what we may see instead are ports of certain BRB powers that make sense to Wolves-specific discipline lists. We could potentially see two or three lists, one that is similar to the Eldar blessing/bane dual list (with buffs and hexes), another that's the elemental effects list (Tempest's Wrath, Living Lightning, Stormcaller, Jaws, etc), and a third that's a divination/telepathy hybrid. 

 

I think it really depends on how much of a pain the developers tasked with refreshing the dex actually view the more FAQ-troublesome of our present powers. 

 

I'm hopeful. First off, the Wolves have one of the more mature fluff lines, and haven't had too much monkeying done with their rules sets over the various editions. They're one of the most stable, even if some of that's due to a decade or more between updates last time around. But the concepts for the Wolves are pretty matured. Additionally, we're coming pretty late to the 6th Edition Update party, which means they'll have tried a lot of new things, and will be willing and able (maybe) to bring all those lessons learned to bear on the dex when it's time. I feel bad for the Dark Angels, as I think they got the complete opposite end of the stick in this regard. But long story short, we aren't broke. All we need is a refresh. But if they're redoing our dex, there are a lot of opportunities to expand and up fluff-related rules in a way that could make an incredibly diverse and characterful codex. And I think the longer it takes for them to complete it, the better. 

 

Just as long as it doesn't take til 8th Edition 40K. I could use some anti-air capability right now. ;)

[Russ Brother 92]

fair point Frostclaw222, i may have been hasty in my reading of this. both Vulkan hestan, and Kor'sharro Khan(chapter masters of Salamanders/white scars) have not recieved the extra 4th wound. yet  the generic chapter master, High marshal Helbrecht and Pedro Kandor have(chapter masters of the Templars/crimson fists). and to make for even more confusion Captain Lysander,(imperial fists) who is not even a chapter master has recieved the extra 4th wound. 

 

Just a quick one - Vulkan H'Estan (Forgefather - but has nominal control over whatever he pleases in their Armoury) and Kor'Sarro Khan (3rd Company Captain) aren't Chapter Masters - the Salamanders CM is Tu'Shan and the White Scars CM is Jubal Khan - so it's understandable that they don't have a 4th Wound.

 

Same again as Frostclaw states - Lysander isn't just the 1st Company Capt. for the Imp Fists, he's also a several thousand year old warrior who broke out of Medrengard... the IWs home fortress.

 

I think the only thing we 'need' as it were for our Characters is a 4th Wound on Logan (c'mon they've given it to every other CM), EW on Ragnar and a flyer or some serious anti-flyer support (based on the two new 'flakk' tanks not these) - although I wouldn't say no to being able to have  Cataphractii armour or even a few plasma blasters, after all if we've managed to keep a ton of our Great Crusade kit why not Rotor Cannons and Plasma Blasters?

[frostclaw222]

I stand corrected on Vulkan and Khan. Appreciate the backstop on Lysander, thought, because I actually thought that was the harder sell. 

 

RB92 lays out a nice construct, but I'll say this: I think variant chapters get less, not more. That being said, Cataphractii armor? No. But that reminds me: we had scouts and *we should have* long fangs with autocannons. If we are to "miss out" on certain upgrades, at the least let us default to old and proven tech. 

[logun]

 

fair point Frostclaw222, i may have been hasty in my reading of this. both Vulkan hestan, and Kor'sharro Khan(chapter masters of Salamanders/white scars) have not recieved the extra 4th wound. yet  the generic chapter master, High marshal Helbrecht and Pedro Kandor have(chapter masters of the Templars/crimson fists). and to make for even more confusion Captain Lysander,(imperial fists) who is not even a chapter master has recieved the extra 4th wound. 

 

Just a quick one - Vulkan H'Estan (Forgefather - but has nominal control over whatever he pleases in their Armoury) and Kor'Sarro Khan (3rd Company Captain) aren't Chapter Masters - the Salamanders CM is Tu'Shan and the White Scars CM is Jubal Khan - so it's understandable that they don't have a 4th Wound.

 

Same again as Frostclaw states - Lysander isn't just the 1st Company Capt. for the Imp Fists, he's also a several thousand year old warrior who broke out of Medrengard... the IWs home fortress.

 

i probably should have read their little back story in the new codex, and i would have found that out in the first few lines. :)

 

my grandfather use to say "it is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt". i obviously wasn't listening 

[frostclaw222]

Actually, logun, keep pushing your arguments. They may be the most sensible of the bunch, once they've pinged off my disappointing reality modifier. 

 

That being said, I'd love me a plasma blaster or two, but will settle for strong Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard. 

 

We don't need grav guns. We don't need anything else. Just let us do our job, up close and personal. 

[Valerian]

I believe (and you're more than welcome to correct me if you've got better data or some hard examples) that what we'll see is Logan Grimnar getting an extra wound, but Wolf Lords (both the template, generic Wolf Lord unit and Ragnar (and, potentially, any other named SC Wolf Lord) remaining at 3 wounds. Let's remember, that while WLs are something bigger than company captains, they are something less than Chapter Masters, as Logan is the titular Chapter Master of the Wolves.

Agreed; don't expect Wolf Lords will get the 4th Wound - they aren't Chapter Masters.

That being said, what you bring up about an auto-include invulnerability save piece of wargear is intriguing from a Games Development perspective. I've always felt it odd that we don't have a bundled equivalent, and always thought that the designers used the purchase of the Belt of Russ as a 'tax' on the better statline and close combat performance of the Wolf Lord over his Codex Astartes equivalent. However, if your proposed bundled invulnerability idea holds true, we'd likely see an Iron Halo equivalent, and the Belt become a relic with some additional rules (EW? It Will Not Die?) added to it, to distinguish it from a regular invul save. However, if my 'tax' perspective is the actual way the designers look at things, then we will not see an invul save bundled, and it might even get a little harder to get one in the new dex.

 

Remember that all Codex SM Captains were already getting 'free' Iron Halos back in their 5e book, and we didn't in ours. So, unless the designers want to make a huge change, the Belt of Russ 'tax' might remain. I lean toward the idea of the Belt of Russ moving into Relic territory, and then getting some additional boosts. We've got several items in our history that would make great Relics.

 

I think we will see cheaper Rune Priests and Wolf Guard Battle Leaders, potentially. However, I'm not sure we'll see cheaper Wolf Priests. They're already a bargain, and if they gain a FNP bubble and some universal Hatred rule or the like (as I and others suspect), then their price might not change much at all.

The trend shows cheaper Rune Priests and Wolf Priests, but out WP wouldn't cheapen if they give him his Apothecary role back (which they absolutely should!). Might as well get rid of Battle Leaders - they've never really added anything to the game, other than provide a cheap HQ option. I'd much rather they bring Ven Dreads back into the HQ slot, and just drop Battle Leaders. Ven Dreads just got a lot cheaper in the new SM Dex, too, IIRC. 

All that said and done, I'm pretty excited about the relics, too. As we've said previously, I think there and in the Saga system (also, potentially the warlord traits, though less so), we have great opportunities for the designers to work up fluffy and useful options to further the uniqueness and fluffiness of our codex, and what units we bring to the board as individual generals.

Yep, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do. With the DA Codex, they took the blandest dex in the history of the game and made those guys pretty cool again, with lots of great options and units (and a few lame ones, too, unfortunately).

Ragnar's big problem isn't needing a fourth wound. What he needs is Eternal Warrior. Between his invulnerable save and the amount of melee pain he can lay down, if I were facing him, I'd be las spamming him the moment he came in range, to one-shot him. But then, I've been griping about that oversight for more than a little while.

Although EW would be awesome, I don't think it really is all that fluff-appropriate, and feel EW should be extremely limited; plus, if given all his current advantages and EW, he'd be a friggin' 300 point character. What he really needs to help him out is Runic Armour! The 2+ basic save, combined with his 4++ Invulnerable would be quite welcome. He also could use an Initiative state boost to base 6, since Furious Charge in 6e no longer gives the boost to I. Ragnar's defining characteristic since Rogue Trader has always been his ferocity and blinding speed. Lastly, I'd make Frostfang a Relic; it isn't just a Frost Weapon, it is a named Frost Weapon, so I'd give it a small improvement (perhaps Rending, so he can get some occasional AP2 effectiveness, which would really help him in 6e).

 

Valerian

[Urauloth]

It was Malodrax that Lysander broke out of, not Medrengard, but still. Pretty similar really, big ugly fortress world, lots of spikes.

 

I agree on grav guns. I'm not sure what the fluff on them is, but it seems a little odd how they're suddenly everywhere - but regardless, some things are going to stay codex SM exclusive and I'm fine with grav guns being one of those things.

[Valerian]

It was Malodrax that Lysander broke out of, not Medrengard, but still. Pretty similar really, big ugly fortress world, lots of spikes.

 

I agree on grav guns. I'm not sure what the fluff on them is, but it seems a little odd how they're suddenly everywhere - but regardless, some things are going to stay codex SM exclusive and I'm fine with grav guns being one of those things.

Grav guns were around in Rogue Trader; they just took a 20 year hiatus. I think that it is awesome that they're bringing them back to the game. A great way to give Marines something "new" that's really not.

 

 

V

[Russ Brother 92]

Ahh I should've checked first haha I knew it began with an M and was very Iron and Spiky :)

 

I do like the fluff etc. for grav weapons, but I think tagging them onto what are incredibly powerful 'new' units is a bit much - if you did kit a full unit of Devastator Centurions completely you're racking up 6 Wounds, at T5 with 2+ Saves able to fire on the move with an insane 3 Krak Missiles and 15 Grav shots which re-roll to wound (wounding on enemy arm save) and AP2... all for a bargain 280 points :/ these will easily replace devastators and possibly things like Raiders and Predators.

[frostclaw222]

There will need to be some sort of scaling between power and frost weapons. The new way they're treating AP and Unwieldy on them completely messes up cost efficiencies in the present dex. 

 

That, taken with what you said about Ragnar, Valerian, makes me wonder how dangerous to balance giving frost weapons as a group rending (or some lesser version of it) would be. Priced appropriately, of course. 

[Russ Brother 92]

There will need to be some sort of scaling between power and frost weapons. The new way they're treating AP and Unwieldy on them completely messes up cost efficiencies in the present dex. 

 

That, taken with what you said about Ragnar, Valerian, makes me wonder how dangerous to balance giving frost weapons as a group rending (or some lesser version of it) would be. Priced appropriately, of course. 

 

You could easily make it Rending on a 6 only (it's actually far less unbalanced than Eldar gaining AP2 on a 6 for ALL shuriken weapons), and then Frostfang having Rending 5+ or Fleshbane - after all he still has to make it to combat vs the ton of shooting he will attract.

[Coverfire]

What Space Wolves Warlord traits do you expect we could see come the new dex?

[Jarl Deathwolf]

What Space Wolves Warlord traits do you expect we could see come the new dex?

Well, brother, this was speculated upon sometime ago. Thankfully, I did a quick search and found it for you. :) 

 

Here it is...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/276208-space-wolves-warlord-traits/?hl=%2Bspace+%2Bwolves+%2Bwarlord+%2Btraits&do=findComment&comment=3389245

[Sohail187]

just read through that link, my god some of the traits great idea's and fluffy.

[MalachiOfRuss]

What Space Wolves Warlord traits do you expect we could see come the new dex?

 

Although I really don't like the idea, I have this nagging feeling that the Sagas will be converted into the Warlord Traits... I really do...

[Jonny Wolf]

So Pedro Cantor has been given an extra wound and attack - leaving our Chapter Master (IIRC) the only one without four wounds...I think the Old Wolf may be getting a stat boost.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Seems that way.

 

I hope the Thunderwolves become a bit cheaper so that everyone will be more encouraged to take em, I really admire the unit but it seems like a hit and miss deathstar. Not too cheap to justify spamming (that would be ridiculous considering Thunderwolf cavalry are elite Wolf Guard), but to be more viable and forgiving in playing them.

 

What I do NOT want to see is getting a ridiculous monstrous creature or vehicle that looks like a wolf just because our chapter is called Vlka Fenryka. I think the thunderwolf calvary are sufficient as our "super unit", we just need an option to a flyer or something capable of skyfire like the new marine AA tanks.

 

Special Chacter wise, just remove Cannis and give Ragnar Eternal Warrior. I think most of our special characters already rock, just need to be tweak.

 

And for the love of Russ, do NOT remove or change Arjac. That guy is so cool in fluff and from what I understand, devastating in combat despite only having 2 wounds.

[frostclaw222]

Kasper, I doubt we'll see Canis go away, unless Harald Deathwolf gets incarnated into a Wolf Lord. Even then, he could end up becoming, as others have suggested, a TWC upgrade character. 

 

I'd like to see Arjac get something like It Will Not Die, as I think it's very fitting, given the story of how he came to become Grimnar's champion. Plus, I don't think he'd become that much nastier, and given his price, it could be justified. I mean, he literally would not die. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

While I like the rule and concep of "It'll not die", fluff wise I always envision it more fitting to daemons or machines. For daemons, it makes sense for them to regrow limbs and appendages due to the nature of the warp, for the necrons of course they are living metal like the T 1000 from Terminator 2 so It'll Not Die suits their fluff as well.

For Iron Hands, I can somewhat apply the T-1000 regenerating ability to them, though it is still a far reach of imagination. They may be bionic marines, but they are not T-1000 living metal machines. Unless they kept pieces of Ferrus' necrodermis arms in their chapter relics and implant a tiny bit of them into all Iron Hands like what the Blood Angels do.

For Arjac though, I don't see that overgrown mountain bear of a space marine healing his wounds unless they update his fluff to possess Wolverine type healing.

If we want to make him tougher than he already is, maybe just an increase in toughness? I forgot if he is toughness 4 or 5, but even with Toughness 5, should render him even more immune to small arms. He already has eternal warrior to shrug off rail guns. If he becomes Toughness 6, then he would truly be a mountain. Eternal Warrior is definitely fluffy for him, I envision him taking a Rail Gun in the chest and still shrugging it off with a fierce wolf howl while the Longstrike just :cusss in his tank.

So either increase his toughness OR give him an additional wound. Either would make him better yet not so overpowered. He costs like what, 198 points right now?

[frostclaw222]

I can see your point. But astartes do in fact heal much quicker than normal. I guess it depends on whether we're actually talking Wolverine-level regen for IWND or something less. 

 

I was envisioning it in this case as his being able to take a tremendous hit or series of them, and it looks like a telling blow, but the guy's so stubborn, he powers through the hurt. 

 

The extra wound, I think, would elevate him too much in terms of power for cost, as that's now captain/Wolf Lord range. But the toughness boost? I dunno. Maybe. No dex in front of me, so I dunno if he's T5 already or not. T6 would be too much, I'd think. 

 

I guess it depends on how you look at Toughness, Wounds, and IWND, and how they interplay in terms of rationale behind the fluff, and how it's expressed in game rules. 

 

I mean, the bionics and some innate "Flesh is weak, power through it" philosophy is supposedly the motive power behind the durability of the Iron Hands, and if IWND fits for them...I mean, c'mon: Arjac fended off how many kraken-spawn for how long before the Wolves found him, surrounded by how many corpses? He probably needed some vital parts replaced. 

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

They should just give us the Thunderhawk......

[frostclaw222]

Yeah. And the Storm Eagle. And Dreadnought Pods, Caestus Assault Rams, and...

 

Wait. 

 

We got all that.

 

I want a Stormbird. :P

[Kasper_Hawser]

Just checked my dex. Arjac is Toughness 4. So maybe just increase Toughness 5 instead of the extra wound? At least he'll be able to stare at a Deathwing Knight and sneer at them, who can only be Toughness 5 when base to base.

 

However, isn't there a rule where if most of the group the character is attached with is a lower toughness, then it means Arjac if joined to a bunch of T4 Wolf guard terminators or Grey Hunters, would then be counted as Toughness 4 even if he is Toughness 5?

 

If so.... DOH! Either he solos it with a higher toughness or get attached to a group and get nerfed.

 

Maybe It Will Not Die isn't too outrageous an idea after all. 

 

Still, as earlier mentioned, he is tough enough as it is, so even if he remains unchanged in points, stats and gear in the next dex, he still could make his points back in 6th edition.

 

Hell, he is probably the only marine that can instant death a Centurion if he can get close enough to either throw his hammer or hit it.

[MalachiOfRuss]

Nah, just drop Arjac's points, otherwise he's fine.

 

Given that the trend has been to bring back things that existed in previous codex's, I think there's a non-zero chance that Leman Russ tanks may make a reappearance.

[jamsight]

Be interesting to see the big release for the Wolves I just hope to god it isn't a unique flyer I'll be happy with a Storm Talon or Storm Raven

 things that could do with a change 

points cost on Fast Attack options Swiftclaws and Skyclaws are to expensive or failing that up their WS to 4 they are after all 'veteran' bloodclaws so they should know how to scrap, agree with dropping Arjac's points infact all of the Characters should be dropped 50pts since the wolf theme is meant to be heroes I notice that all of them are around the 250pt mark (yes I know ulrik is cheaper but just giving a rule of thumb) 

Ragnar wants rend or runic armour will settle for shred at a push 

No warlord traits just keep the sagas they do the same thing and you can pick them ;) and I get the feeling if we get warlard traits then the sagas are a goner :(