Help with Deathwing

[Dirrain]

Hello all! I'm new to the B&C forums and pretty new to the hobby as well. 

I'm fielding a (mainly) DW army and have a few questions! Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

 

I've only played a few games so far, and it doesn't help that the friend who introduced me to the hobby is highly competitive and fields GK allied with SW (4 Jokaero chimeras and long fang MLs and 3 psyiflemen dreads... WITH PRESCIENCE! Ugh.) My alpha strikes dont really do much as he protects his metal boxes rears pretty well and SB shots bounce off AV12/11. 

 

Questions:

1) My Deathwing encounter substantial problems when fighting Mech/Vehicle heavy lists. Is there any way besides cyclone ML spam to combat vehicles?

2) Belial and his command squad, when tooled out to be shooty, feel like a waste (Might as well stick Belial with a 10 man DW squad) and when tooled out to be choopy (Champion, all TH/SS, apothecary and DW standard) Have problems surviving the initial deepstrike turn. Any tips?

3) How many Ravenwing Black Knights is too many? Should I go for 1 unit of 6 bikes or 2 units of 3 bikes for support?

4) Is sticking a terminator librarian with a PFG and deepstriking him with shooty DW a viable option? 

5) DW Knights - Footslog (Fire magnets but soooo slow...), LRC or Deep strike? Does anyone actually use the full 10 men squad of DW Knights?

6) Is a terminator chaplain worth the points in a shooty DW list?

7) Ally-ing Blood Angels (Vanguard and Sternguard Vets with Tycho deepstriking in) seems to work pretty well against other lists. Is a Stormraven a better choice then a Nephilim for AA shenanigans? 

 

Thanks for reading and helping me out! 

 

[march10k]

1.  Depends on what else you're willing to take...the best thing we have to pop cans with is predators with lascannon sponsons and an autocannon on top.

 

2.  I never field belial with a command squad. Lots of people field him with a ten man squad.  My own solution is to put him inside a crusader with an assaulty squad.

 

3.  Depends on the rest of your list, and what you intend to do with them.

 

4.  No.  You're spending a ton of points to increase their invulnerable save from 5+ to 4+, and then if the enemy gets into melee with you, you're increasing his invulnerable save from none to 4+.

 

5.  LRC.  Nobody uses ten, as far as I know.  I like an LRC load of them next to an LRC with belial and squad, and a PFG-bearing techmarine inside one of them so they both get a 4++ save.   AV14 with a 4+ invulnerable save is just mean.

 

6.  Depends on what he's doing.  He's worth the points if he has the mace and he's leading a fighty unit (tactical terminators may have stormbolters, but they're better in melee) in a charge out of a crusader. 

 

7.  Yes, it's better...but don't worry about AA, you have bigger problems.  Worrying about AA will hurt more than it helps, at this point.  And remember that allying BA means you have to take a troops choice and a HQ before you're allowed to take that stormraven or whatever...so you end up spending a ton of points on stuff you don't even want just to get that one model that won't always come in handy.

 

Your overall problem is that you're trying to be a shooty army...with deathwing.  Terminators, even with stormbolters, are sucky shooters and awesome fighters.  If you want a shooty DA list, you want either ravenwing (which is cool, but hard to win with for a novice) or the boys in green.  If you want deathwing, think more about punching people with those powerfists and less about bouncing stormbolter shells off of their armor.

[elphilo]

Honestly, look for mach10k's Deathwing List and try that against him. If he's only running mostly S8 shooting, laugh at him while he tries to destroy two AV14 vehicles, but watch out for those hammerhanded Daemonhammers

Otherwise here's my responses:

1. For Deathwing, get into melee with those vehicles and they won't be a problem. Deep Striking is your friend here. Or if you want to shoot them CML/Assault Cannon or Dreadnaught with TLLC is probably your best bet (but this is only from the stance of pure Deathwing, there are other better options in the codex for Anti-Tank, most people swear by multi-melta land speeders).

2. As much as I want to like the command squad, I don't. Dump them for another scoring terminator unit or a unit of Deathwing Knights.

3. I have fallen in love with a squad of 6 Ravenwing Black Knights with 2 Ravenwing Grenade Launchers. I feel its the "just right" number for them.

4. Like was said before, too many points for a +1 to a invulnerable save

5. If you choose to footslog Deathwing Knights, put Belial in there with TH/SS for precises deep strike shenanigans. Otherwise Land Raider Crusader.

6. Probably not. If you're doing a pure shooty Deathwing, then a Librarian for Prescience is a better option.

7. As I don't know Blood Angels I can't answer this question

Hope this helps!

[Dirrain]

Thanks for the responses! Sadly I only have 1 LRC so I can't pull off march10k's list. Closest I can come to it is a servo harness techmarine with PFG in a LRC and 2 vindicators. Might be a fun build... Heh.

I guess that being new, I've just been bombarded by the net's opinion that DA IS TEH SHOOTY MARINES! And been playing accordingly. I've been trying to kite them at 24-30" since DW are relentless. Will defo run in and smash things with my termies next match. Or try to anyhow. 

 

About Belial... If I stick him in a unit of DW Knights, is it better to use the SB/Sword or TH/SS for him? Fleshbane is pretty awesome, and the knights can Look out, sir! for Belial in any event. 

 

Thank you both for the quick responses! =D 

[elphilo]

I've tried him with the SB/Sword in a group of Deathwing Knights and didn't care for it. I guess my love for his TH/SS is just a holdover from last edition. But when I have run him with TH/SS in a unit of Deathwing Knights it just seemed to synergize more.

Okay I'm now spouting management words, I have to stop that

[Upstartes]

OK. I'll put my few cents in.

 

1. Chainfists eat vehicles if you get close to them. A dreadnought in a drop pod is also good, and doesn't detract too much from the all-DW theme. Lastly, don't underestimate the standard pattern land raider. Although it only carts 5 terminators around, two TL-LCs is some good anti-armor and not too shabby against aircraft either.

 

2. I plan to run command squads sometimes, even though many don't like them. I think you have two choices: (a) Make them choppy and deliver them and Belial in an LRC. You lose Belial's deep strike accuracy, but gain the use of his teleport homer. OR (b) use the command squad for a banner of devastation. In this incarnation, the purpose of the team is to support your other termie squads. Strike the others first, then use Belial's accurate deep strike to put the banner where it effects the most other units. Others will say there are better ways to spend the points, and they may be right. But if you have fluffy/aesthetic reasons to want the command squad (like me), I think this is as good a way as any to use them.

 

3. I think Black Knights want to be in squads of 5 or 6. They want to get into assault and chop things, and less than 5 bikes is too fragile for that, in my opinion.

 

4. I agree with what has been said about why this isn't so hot. It also relegates your librarian to not getting into hand-to-hand, which is probably someplace he'll eventually want to be. I like to stick one thunder hammer/storm shield guy in all of my DW units, and then try to keep him positioned between the rest of the squad and the biggest threat. Then his 3++ can soak a few shots. It's not perfect, but it has worked well enough fro me that I keep doing it.

 

5. Foot-slogging assault infantry =  ugh. Land Raider delivery is my solid preference for assaulty terminators. I hate to deep strike guys that have to sit there for a turn, not shoot at anything, and try to survive. Might not be too bad if combined with the standard of fortitude, then they'll be pretty hard to kill OR they will encourage your opponent to dump so many shots into them that he ignores other threats. However, LRC is choice 1.

 

6. I think it depends on what else you might spend those points on. Even my shooty terminators get into hand-to-hand. A squad full of powerfists on survivable 2+-save models eats normal infantry for breakfast. However, if you skip the chaplain, you can have more bodies in other squads, which is not to be sneezed at given the low model-count of an all DW list.

 

7. I like the storm raven, but maybe that's because I had one before the DW codex came out. I think there is value in allying one in, but you will have to scratch your head about what Blood Angels HQ and Squad to include. Death Company in that storm raven with a Reclusiarch is a scary bunch of death from the sky, but they suck a lot of points. Alternatively, take a BA librarian for versatility abd get a cheap assault squad in the raven to drop on some late-game objective. The challenge, of course, is still the low model-count of the DW. You don't want to sink too many points into things that aren't more bodies.