Bike sergeants wargear issue

[Hrushkin]

Hello, brothers.

 

I have got an interesting question which I so far failed to find the answer to.

Imagine the Ravenwing attack squad sergeant. He has a tl-boltgun as a part of wargear. Can I give him a power weapon (particularly, spear) instead of the tl-bolter as per wargear section rules (a model may replace one weapon with one of the following...).

That'd be nice as having only the bolt pistol or chainsword frustrates me a little.

 

Thank you!

 

[Lysere]

The twin-linked bolter I believe is part of the bike. You can't replace it with anything.

[Nasse]

I agree with Lysere. It's a part of the bike, not to be replaced. or you'd have to mount the sword on the bolter's slot...

[Lysere]

I agree with Lysere. It's a part of the bike, not to be replaced. or you'd have to mount the sword on the bolter's slot...

 

Would be interesting to see someone do that with an Axe, maybe they can wield the bike DMC 3 style.

[Hrushkin]

Well, its just the way the rules are set.

If the tl-boltgun is the model's weapon - why can't I change it for close combat weapon as with all other weapons (p.91)?

 

Cheers!

[Nasse]

It's the bike's weapon - not the Sergeant's. That's the way I see it. Besides, why would you not just change the chainsword for a power weapon instead?

Never mind, I didn't read the unit entry carefully enough.

[Hrushkin]

Sergeant is effectively a "bike" unit model, so all weapons belong to that model.

And the reason I am asking is the possibility to add another attack in assault - he can have either bolt pistol or chainsword (to change for anything else), not both of them.

[Nasse]

Well, RAW I can't find a reason why, but I believe a lot of people would look down their noses at it. Maybe there's something in the main rule book but I wouldn't know of it, since I don't have access to it right now.

Needless to say, I'd go with RAI here any day of the week.

[Brother Immolator]

Sergeant is effectively a "bike" unit model, so all weapons belong to that model.

And the reason I am asking is the possibility to add another attack in assault - he can have either bolt pistol or chainsword (to change for anything else), not both of them.

The Sergeant is a model with a space marine bike(hence the biker in the section) that comes stock with a bike.

A biker is that: A spacemarine but instead of the boltgun/boltpistol he comes with a bike, which has (the bike) a twinlinked bolter. Therefore you cant replace it.

Everyday it gets better and better

Well, RAW I can't find a reason why,

The weapon is part of the bike, check the bike wargear entry.

[Hrushkin]

I personally prefer RAI over the RAW most of the times as well. You may call me an apologeth of RAI, but this case made me wonder, really.

 

Here's what our codex says about the RAS:

 

Wargear:
• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Twin-linked boltgun
• Heavy bolter (Attack Bike only)
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Teleport homer

 

And no "bike" in wargear section.

I've just reread the BRB as well - it has nothing to contradict my hypothesis.

[Brother Immolator]

PG 64 Dark Angels codex under the special issue wargear, spacemarine bike: Models equiped with space marine bikes change their unit type to Bike as disctibed in the BRB. Space marine bikes (the gear not the Bike character, parenthesis mine) are fitted with a twinlinked boltgun.

[Lysere]

I will also point out a twin-linked boltgun is not a bolter. Also does the entry for him say he may replace his bolter and/or bolt pistol, or just his bolt pistol.

[Brother Immolator]

I will also point out a twin-linked boltgun is not a bolter. Also does the entry for him say he may replace his bolter and/or bolt pistol, or just his bolt pistol.

A twinlinked boltgun is two boltguns stratpped together. The standard of devastation effects them as it effects regular boltguns and hurri bolters.

 

EDIT: They gain access to the armory and in order to make selections from there you have certain criteria of what to choose. But those are in a different section and not on the army list entry. The most common been a CC for another CC and a ranged for a ranged, but that is besides the point.

[Lysere]

 

I will also point out a twin-linked boltgun is not a bolter. Also does the entry for him say he may replace his bolter and/or bolt pistol, or just his bolt pistol.

A twinlinked boltgun is two boltguns stratpped together. The standard of devastation effects them as it effects regular boltguns.

 

Yes but as per a unit entry if it says bolter and/or bolt pistol (if they straight copied the weapon options from normal sergeants) a twin-linked boltgun could not then be replaced. (at least how I read them)

 

If it simply bolt pistol then it definitely couldn't be replaced.

[Hrushkin]

It's true for those IC models, that want to ride a bike.

Ravenwing sergeant doesn't have a bike as wargear part. He has a tl-boltgun and bolt pistol.

I've found another thread on DakkaDakka regarding chaos lord on bike. With almost the same kind of discussion.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/blog/488356.page

Besides, speaking RAI, if chaos bikers can replace their tl-boltguns then why DA bikers (if only sergeatns though) can't?

Seems like legit to me, brothers.

I welcome further criticism and arguments, but it's 1.30 am and I need to sleep a little before going to work.

Have a good one!

[Brother Immolator]

I will also point out a twin-linked boltgun is not a bolter. Also does the entry for him say he may replace his bolter and/or bolt pistol, or just his bolt pistol.

A twinlinked boltgun is two boltguns stratpped together. The standard of devastation effects them as it effects regular boltguns.

Yes but as per a unit entry if it says bolter and/or bolt pistol (if they straight copied the weapon options from normal sergeants) a twin-linked boltgun could not then be replaced. (at least how I read them)

If it simply bolt pistol then it definitely couldn't be replaced.

Didnt edit my post fast enough, please my post above again

It's true for those IC models, that want to ride a bike.
Ravenwing sergeant doesn't have a bike as wargear part. He has a tl-boltgun and bolt pistol.
I've found another thread on DakkaDakka regarding chaos lord on bike. With almost the same kind of discussion.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/blog/488356.page
Besides, speaking RAI, if chaos bikers can replace their tl-boltguns then why DA bikers (if only sergeans though) can't?

Seems like legit to me, brothers.

I welcome further criticism and arguments, but it's 1.30 pm and I need to sleep a little before going to work.
Have a good one!

He is a biker character as per the BRB. Been a biker has the bike wargear as a prerequisite and therefore it needs not to be mentioned.
Its auto included.

The chaos lord takes the bike as an upgrade, its not on his profile.
Have a good nights sleep bro, Ill tuck myself in too after a while!

[Hrushkin]

It's true for those IC models, that want to ride a bike.

Ravenwing sergeant doesn't have a bike as wargear part. He has a tl-boltgun and bolt pistol.

I've found another thread on DakkaDakka regarding chaos lord on bike. With almost the same kind of discussion.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/blog/488356.page

Besides, speaking RAI, if chaos bikers can replace their tl-boltguns then why DA bikers (if only sergeans though) can't?

Seems like legit to me, brothers.

I welcome further criticism and arguments, but it's 1.30 pm and I need to sleep a little before going to work.

Have a good one!

He is a biker character as per the BRB. Been a biker has the bike wargear as a prerequisite and therefore it needs not to be mentioned.

Its auto included.

The same argumentation they had in dakkadakka thread discussion.

Person A: The bike has a weapon, biker hasn't so he can't change it!

Person B: Then the biker can't shoot i as it's not his weapon! and the bike has no BS!

[Lysere]

He's mainly asking about the sergeant, who does not list a bike in his wargear, he simply is on a bike and has a twin-linked boltgun. The issue I think is I doubt he has an option to replace a twin-linked boltgun, or bolter for another weapon, therefore can only trade his pistol. Alas I do not know the unit entry myself.

 

Also the bike taken as wargear is different. The model receives a bike that has a built in twin-linked bolter. As they are one piece of wargear he can not take one and trade out the other, but he may use both of them.

[Hrushkin]

He's mainly asking about the sergeant, who does not list a bike in his wargear, he simply is on a bike and has a twin-linked boltgun. The issue I think is I doubt he has an option to replace a twin-linked boltgun, or bolter for another weapon, therefore can only trade his pistol. Alas I do not know the unit entry myself.

 

Also the bike taken as wargear is different. The model receives a bike that has a built in twin-linked bolter. As they are one piece of wargear he can not take one and trade out the other, but he may use both of them.

Yeah, I actually like the last point!

As for the weapons trade wargear entry - it says "Can replace one weapon".

[Lysere]

 

He's mainly asking about the sergeant, who does not list a bike in his wargear, he simply is on a bike and has a twin-linked boltgun. The issue I think is I doubt he has an option to replace a twin-linked boltgun, or bolter for another weapon, therefore can only trade his pistol. Alas I do not know the unit entry myself.

 

Also the bike taken as wargear is different. The model receives a bike that has a built in twin-linked bolter. As they are one piece of wargear he can not take one and trade out the other, but he may use both of them.

Yeah, I actually like the last point!

As for the weapons trade wargear entry - it says "Can replace one weapon".

 

Then simply going off what it says you could indeed trade out the twin-linked boltgun. Unless of course they FAQ'd it.

 

I will be honest it probably is not worth it on a sergeant.

[Brother Immolator]

Lets go to this again, in case i didnt express myself clear.

 

The sergeant in the DA codex is a biker.

 

A biker as per the BRB is a model who has received a bike wargear upgrade. You cannot have a biker without a bike. 

Therefore the biker sergeant whether his wargear list or not has the bike item/wargear, he always has it because he cant be a bike (character) without it.

Now the twinlinked boltgun cannot be given into a model without a bike under no circumstances, and since he already has a bike by virtue of been a biker the bike has always a twinlked boltgun (codex DA).

 

I see it thus:

 

1 + 2  = 3 but also 3 = 2 + 1

 

The only weapon capable of replacing the bikes twinlinked bolters is the plasma talon but thats for another entry.

[JeffJedi]

What about replacing the Techmarine's Servo Arm with something? How about the Servo Harness? How about all 4 arms of the Servo Harness?

 

Techmarine with Bolter, Poweraxe, Flamer, Plasmacutter, Combi-Melta and Lightning Claw.

Shooting two Bolters per turn or Flamer, Plasma or Melta as needed. Close Combat Lightning Claw or Power Axe.

[Razblood]

Having just looked at the RW Attack Squad entry it says - "Any model can replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword"

But it also says "The Ravenwing Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons sections of the Wargear list"

RAW this states that a Ravenwing Sergeant does not have to replace his initial equip, he can add to it. Therefore there would be no need to replace the twin-linked bolters since if you want to run a Sarge with a bolt pistol or chainsword and a power weapon you are indeed free to do so as the RAW do not in any way contradict RAI. Hell, if you wanted to you could give him a pair of Lightning Claws and he'd still have his twin-linked bolters and his bolt pistol

But then again why would you replace the twin-linked bolters (unless it was with twin-linked plasma a la Black Knights)? They grant fast moving rapid fire with re-rolls that let you assault after firing!

[Disruptor_fe404]

Probably because the relevant sections of the Wargear list say that you need to replace an existing weapon to take them?

[Venemox]

The way I see it is that the unit does not have the bikes listed on the Special Issue Wargear section.  They are bikers by virtue of being identified as unit type (Bike), not by virtue of have the Space Marine Bike listed as wargear they have.  In their profile they have a twin linked boltgun.  These things are modeled together, but not connected in any other game terms.

 

Characters who are able to purchase the Space Marine Bike gain the wargear item 'Space Marine Bike'.  I know, that should be self evident.  Since they have purchased that item of wargear (which the assault squadron does not have and cannot purchase) their type changes to (Bike) and they gain access to the twin linked boltgun attached to it, per page 64.

 

If we look back to Sammeal as a reference:  He has neither the plasma cannon nor twin linked storm bolter listed separately.  He has Corvex as a chapter relic, which has those weapons attached.