Bike sergeants wargear issue

[Brother Immolator]

The way I see it is that the unit does not have the bikes listed on the Special Issue Wargear section.  They are bikers by virtue of being identified as unit type (Bike), not by virtue of have the Space Marine Bike listed as wargear they have.  In their profile they have a twin linked boltgun.  These things are modeled together, but not connected in any other game terms.

 

Characters who are able to purchase the Space Marine Bike gain the wargear item 'Space Marine Bike'.  I know, that should be self evident.  Since they have purchased that item of wargear (which the assault squadron does not have and cannot purchase) their type changes to (Bike) and they gain access to the twin linked boltgun attached to it, per page 64.

 

If we look back to Sammeal as a reference:  He has neither the plasma cannon nor twin linked storm bolter listed separately.  He has Corvex as a chapter relic, which has those weapons attached.

So by that reasoning you will model a powerarmored (on foot model) carrying two boltguns on its arms. After all the bike is not listed on their wargear section right?

[Raeven]

Hello, brothers.

 

I have got an interesting question which I so far failed to find the answer to.

Imagine the Ravenwing attack squad sergeant. He has a tl-boltgun as a part of wargear. Can I give him a power weapon (particularly, spear) instead of the tl-bolter as per wargear section rules (a model may replace one weapon with one of the following...).

That'd be nice as having only the bolt pistol or chainsword frustrates me a little.

 

Thank you!

You can take a spear, but you have to give up the pistol.  Just use their hit and run ability to your advantage.

 

You should almost never bring your bikes into assault anyway. 

[BigGumbo]

The problem seems to be that the rules are badly written. Yes, as written, it would appear that the bike sergeant can legitmately replace "his" twin-linked boltgun with a power weapon. However, a twin-linked boltgun is not a weapon option for any DA character and only exists as part of a bike or Attack Bike, which would suggest that it is not a weapon carried by the character which is capable of being swapped even though it is listed within his wargear.

 

I'd also add my query as to why you would want to lose your only decent ranged weapon for a combat weapon that you would hope never to need to use...

 

The way I see it is that the unit does not have the bikes listed on the Special Issue Wargear section.  They are bikers by virtue of being identified as unit type (Bike), not by virtue of have the Space Marine Bike listed as wargear they have.  In their profile they have a twin linked boltgun.  These things are modeled together, but not connected in any other game terms.

You mean that there are two different kinds of Space Marine Bike: one that's issued to bike squadrons for them to mount their separately-issued twin-linked boltguns on and another that can be bought by characters which conveniently has a twin-linked boltgun already built in? That's a pretty bizarre interpretation of this situation, if you don't mind me saying so.

[Grey Mage]

Its all very interesting.

 

I note that in the rules from the core book, were supposed to see how many riders a bike has to determine how many guns it can shoot. Much like were supposed to look at a model to see what kind of power weapon it has due to all the generic entries...

 

GW keeps talking about how this is a model based game, perhaps we should use that as a guideline?

[Morollan]

The DA codex states:

 

 

The Ravenwing Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/ or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear list.

 

The wargear for the Sergeant includes a twin-linked bolter.

 

The Melee Weapons section of the wargear list says:

 

 

A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:
- Chainsword ..
- Lightning claw . .
- Power weapon .
- Power fist ..
- Thunder hammer . .

 

So by RAW the Sergeant can replace one weapon, including the twin-linked bolter, with one of the above options.

 

RAI, hell no!!

[Upstartes]

This falls into the category of things that may be technically legal, but that will cause almost every opponent and judge you encounter to treat you like a jerk or a cheat. In practice, you may not convinced many people to let you play like that. So it seems like a bad idea to me.

[Boniface]

just replace a grenade type.

 

melee weapon rules state any weapon may be exchanged.

 

Grenades are weapons on all levels.

 

gets you an extra weapon.

 

this is more legit than the previous argument.

[Morollan]

just replace a grenade type.

 

melee weapon rules state any weapon may be exchanged.

 

Grenades are weapons on all levels.

 

gets you an extra weapon.

 

this is more legit than the previous argument.

 

It's no more legit and if anything is even worse.

[Lysere]

What about replacing the Techmarine's Servo Arm with something? How about the Servo Harness? How about all 4 arms of the Servo Harness?

 

Techmarine with Bolter, Poweraxe, Flamer, Plasmacutter, Combi-Melta and Lightning Claw.

Shooting two Bolters per turn or Flamer, Plasma or Melta as needed. Close Combat Lightning Claw or Power Axe.

 

A Servo arm is a piece of wargear that has a weapon effect, a Servo Harness is a piece of Wargear that has several weapon effects. It is not however itself a weapon by default. Just as a space marine bike is not a weapon but has a weapon included in it's own rules.

 

 

just replace a grenade type.

 

melee weapon rules state any weapon may be exchanged.

 

Grenades are weapons on all levels.

 

gets you an extra weapon.

 

this is more legit than the previous argument.

 

Grenades are wargear that have an option to be used as a weapon.

 

However a twin-linked boltgun is a weapon, as is a bolt pistol, bolter, or chainsword. Because the sergeants entry specifically lists a twin-linked boltgun as part of his wargear he can by RAW replace it with something else. This is because it is indeed a weapon, and it is not "built in" to his bike like a character who upgrades to it. If you look at pretty much every other Marine Dex the bike is listed as wargear and either makes no mention of the twin-linked bolter, or mentions that the bike has one built in. Not so with the DA codex.

 

That is simply the RAW of the situation. Actually playing it like that will generally be frowned on. It's also not the best strategy because it gives up a valuable ranged weapon on a relentless platform, and one extra attack is not going to make your sergeant much better, even with a Lance.

[Brother Immolator]

I still fail to see why people cant understand simple reasoning.

Must everything be uber complicated to make sense?

[Lysere]

I still fail to see why people cant understand simple reasoning.

Must everything be uber complicated to make sense?

 

Simple understanding says you should not trade a twin-linked boltgun for a power weapon. With that I agree, but playing devil's advocate it is easy to see how one could. After all the rules quite clearly let you.

 

Again the eternal question is why would you want one power weapon in a squad best used for shooting?

[Hrushkin]

I'm very grateful for all of your posts, brothers!

 

Again, I am a RAI-player foremost, so in truth I really hate when someone is toying with the (unpurposely) badly or controversally written rules just to get advantages over other players.

But I consider this particular case sort of an excercise for the one's logical thinking. Besides, having additional attack in close combat instead of having a tl-boltgun is not a game-breaking thing. I'd say, it is even a disadvantage of some sort.

Rest assured, I will never use it anyway. :)

Let's think of it as another "FAQ it, please" thing.

 

Wish you good luck!

[Azoriel]

Why not just argue to swap out your krak grenades instead?  (After all, it's a weapon...)

[Lysere]

Why not just argue to swap out your krak grenades instead?  (After all, it's a weapon...)

 

If you read what I said earlier, and my post to the topic opened up specifically for that a krak grenade is not actually a weapon. Being able to be used as one, and being one are two different things.

 

It will also get you thrown out of store while the twin-linked boltgun can just be seen as ambiguous.

[Upstartes]

Since the original poster has said farewell to this topic, I say we all do the same. There are better pointless arguments to have elsewhere in the forum. ;)

[dswanick]

 

Why not just argue to swap out your krak grenades instead?  (After all, it's a weapon...)

 

If you read what I said earlier, and my post to the topic opened up specifically for that a krak grenade is not actually a weapon. Being able to be used as one, and being one are two different things.

Based on what objective criteria?

- Look at the table of contents.  "Grenades" are listed as a subsection of "Weapons", right after "Ranged Weapons" and "Close Combat Weapons".

- The "Grenades" section starts on pg.61, which is headed by the label "Weapons".

- Every grenade listed in that section has a Weapon Profile.

So what RAW actually supports the notion that a Grenade is not a Weapon, and therefore can't be exchanged by a model with the ability to exchange a weapon for some other weargear?

[Lysere]

In every codex grenades are not listed as weapons. They are listed as wargear of various flavors not weapons. It is in these sections that we are told what kind of grenade they are, and to that army what they are considered. The sergeant entry is also a codex entry, and says specifically he may trade a weapon. Once armed we can use the rulebook to see how a grenade may be used as a weapon, but this does not make a grenade a weapon.

 

A codex entry trumps the rule book, and Frag grenades are only classified as assault grenades in the codex, which also labels them as wargear, not, I repeat, a weapon.

[dswanick]

In every codex grenades are not listed as weapons. They are listed as wargear of various flavors not weapons. It is in these sections that we are told what kind of grenade they are, and to that army what they are considered. The sergeant entry is also a codex entry, and says specifically he may trade a weapon. Once armed we can use the rulebook to see how a grenade may be used as a weapon, but this does not make a grenade a weapon.

 

A codex entry trumps the rule book, and Frag grenades are only classified as assault grenades in the codex, which also labels them as wargear, not, I repeat, a weapon.

There is no codex entry in the C:DA (6th Ed) book to trump the rulebook.  In fact, it specifically tells you to refer to the appropriate section of the rulebook for their rules (which is were you find the Grenades listed in the Weapon section)...

 

So anything listed as "Wargear" can not be a weapon?  Because most codexes list all Weapons in the section labeled "Wargear".  I think you'd be hard pressed to argue to a C:SM, C:SW, C:BA player that an Assault Cannon isn't a Weapon...

[Lysere]

Wargear is generally broken up into smaller categories. Armor, Weapons, Special issue warger, and other such titles. Grenades themselves are warger, or as someone else mentioned Special Issue Wargear. The are an item that has specific rules that they are taken for. Grenades are taken for assault purposes, and thanks to the core rulebook have an option to be thrown in the shooting phase.

 

A weapon such as an assault cannon is always under a heading called weapons. (At least in every codex I look at) They are also all characterized by only having a statline that they are used for, but no rules to make the model itself better other than when using said weapon.

 

Something may be wargear, a weapon, or either. It depends on the given codex and how they lay out their wargear section.

 

For example, codex BT has a complete seperation of wargear items and weapons. Meanwhile C:SM has a wargear section with various sub sections like weapons and armor.

[Brother Immolator]

I will be taking my leave from this topic. But guys seriously ever since the new codex came out all I see is people
trying to take it appart. And worst of all is I see people trying to rationalise that tearing appart when rules are explicitely written and prevent it.

 

First it was the apothecary, then it was the nephelim, then the plasma tallon, then the techmarine, then SoD, now its this....

 

We are turning a game into a marathon of queries and answers which are based on grammar and English language PhDs while its all there with a bit of common sense and use of the BRB.

 

Its sad really/

[Upstartes]

But this is what the internet is for! Making stupid arguments to strangers and getting unnecessarily mad about it. And freaking the frak out.

 

In the Emperor's name, we rant.

[dswanick]

Wargear is generally broken up into smaller categories. Armor, Weapons, Special issue warger, and other such titles. Grenades themselves are warger, or as someone else mentioned Special Issue Wargear. The are an item that has specific rules that they are taken for. Grenades are taken for assault purposes, and thanks to the core rulebook have an option to be thrown in the shooting phase.

 

A weapon such as an assault cannon is always under a heading called weapons. (At least in every codex I look at) They are also all characterized by only having a statline that they are used for, but no rules to make the model itself better other than when using said weapon.

 

Something may be wargear, a weapon, or either. It depends on the given codex and how they lay out their wargear section.

 

For example, codex BT has a complete seperation of wargear items and weapons. Meanwhile C:SM has a wargear section with various sub sections like weapons and armor.

Which would be all fine and dandy, except that the entry for the "Special Issue Wargear" then tells you to refer back to the BRB were the specific item is found in a subsection of the "Weapons" category.

[Lysere]

But this is what the internet is for! Making stupid arguments to strangers and getting unnecessarily mad about it. And freaking the frak out.

 

In the Emperor's name, we rant.

 

That last part is almost sig worthy.

 

I don't mind when someone brings up something that may be a loophole on here because at least here we can bash the idea into tiny pieces in the name of discussion, better here than a tourney or something. However knowing when to argue to see how it holds up, and arguing just because you can are not the same. Also knowing when a discussion has come to an end already is useful. If you don't know check the other thread for weapon swapping. (No I won't link it for you, that's what search is for)

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Wargear is generally broken up into smaller categories. Armor, Weapons, Special issue warger, and other such titles. Grenades themselves are warger, or as someone else mentioned Special Issue Wargear. The are an item that has specific rules that they are taken for. Grenades are taken for assault purposes, and thanks to the core rulebook have an option to be thrown in the shooting phase.

 

A weapon such as an assault cannon is always under a heading called weapons. (At least in every codex I look at) They are also all characterized by only having a statline that they are used for, but no rules to make the model itself better other than when using said weapon.

 

Something may be wargear, a weapon, or either. It depends on the given codex and how they lay out their wargear section.

 

For example, codex BT has a complete seperation of wargear items and weapons. Meanwhile C:SM has a wargear section with various sub sections like weapons and armor.

Which would be all fine and dandy, except that the entry for the "Special Issue Wargear" then tells you to refer back to the BRB were the specific item is found in a subsection of the "Weapons" category.

 

Let me ask you to walk through the steps for taking wargear.

 

Codex Dark Angels has a model that has an entry that says: "Model may exchange one weapon for..."

 

In Codex Dark Angels what is listed under the weapons sections of the Codex's Wargear? Grenades most certainly fall under neither weapon category.

 

A bolt pistol would be in the the ranged weapons section, a chainsword is found under close combat weapons. (Or whatever the exact titles are) Grenades are found only in the Special Issue Wargear Section. Therefore as per Codex Dark Angels grenades are viewed as special issue wargear.

 

Now once the weapons and wargear of a model are decided, we are told to reference the weapons section of the rulebook for what the rules are for an assault grenade. This is the only time that grenades are listed as a weapon. You are told to reference because they can update the rules for grenades later in another edition and not break their own codex (other than page numbers) but this does not override the actual codex label of special issue warger. It is the codex that we follow when determining what it is we can take. The rulebook is nothing more than the rules common to many and often every army. When choosing wargear it is only your own codex that matter.

[Grey Mage]

But this is what the internet is for! Making stupid arguments to strangers and getting unnecessarily mad about it. And freaking the frak out.

 

In the Emperor's name, we rant.

Except for getting emotional about it... yes. We welcome the devils advocate here- if only because its better to see it here than across the board.

[dswanick]

 

 

 

Wargear is generally broken up into smaller categories. Armor, Weapons, Special issue warger, and other such titles. Grenades themselves are warger, or as someone else mentioned Special Issue Wargear. The are an item that has specific rules that they are taken for. Grenades are taken for assault purposes, and thanks to the core rulebook have an option to be thrown in the shooting phase.

 

A weapon such as an assault cannon is always under a heading called weapons. (At least in every codex I look at) They are also all characterized by only having a statline that they are used for, but no rules to make the model itself better other than when using said weapon.

 

Something may be wargear, a weapon, or either. It depends on the given codex and how they lay out their wargear section.

 

For example, codex BT has a complete seperation of wargear items and weapons. Meanwhile C:SM has a wargear section with various sub sections like weapons and armor.

 

Which would be all fine and dandy, except that the entry for the "Special Issue Wargear" then tells you to refer back to the BRB were the specific item is found in a subsection of the "Weapons" category.

 

Let me ask you to walk through the steps for taking wargear.

 

Codex Dark Angels has a model that has an entry that says: "Model may exchange one weapon for..."

 

In Codex Dark Angels what is listed under the weapons sections of the Codex's Wargear? Grenades most certainly fall under neither weapon category.

 

A bolt pistol would be in the the ranged weapons section, a chainsword is found under close combat weapons. (Or whatever the exact titles are) Grenades are found only in the Special Issue Wargear Section. Therefore as per Codex Dark Angels grenades are viewed as special issue wargear.

 

Now once the weapons and wargear of a model are decided, we are told to reference the weapons section of the rulebook for what the rules are for an assault grenade. This is the only time that grenades are listed as a weapon. You are told to reference because they can update the rules for grenades later in another edition and not break their own codex (other than page numbers) but this does not override the actual codex label of special issue warger. It is the codex that we follow when determining what it is we can take. The rulebook is nothing more than the rules common to many and often every army. When choosing wargear it is only your own codex that matter.

I think you're missing the point. "Wargear" is a models "gear of war". All weapons are wargear(as evidenced by "weapons" being subcategories of the "wargear" sction of most codexs, and it being listed under the heading "wargear" in all unit entries. "Special Issue Wargear" isn't a label denoting "gear, not weapons", its a label denoting the "special issue" nature of certain wargear(weapons and non-weapon items). As such, this does not change the fact that a grenade is a weapon(both because it is found in the "weapons" section of the rulebook and it has a Weapon Profile).