Bike sergeants wargear issue

[Leonaides]

Yawnballs...

[Lysere]

 

 

 

 

Wargear is generally broken up into smaller categories. Armor, Weapons, Special issue warger, and other such titles. Grenades themselves are warger, or as someone else mentioned Special Issue Wargear. The are an item that has specific rules that they are taken for. Grenades are taken for assault purposes, and thanks to the core rulebook have an option to be thrown in the shooting phase.

 

A weapon such as an assault cannon is always under a heading called weapons. (At least in every codex I look at) They are also all characterized by only having a statline that they are used for, but no rules to make the model itself better other than when using said weapon.

 

Something may be wargear, a weapon, or either. It depends on the given codex and how they lay out their wargear section.

 

For example, codex BT has a complete seperation of wargear items and weapons. Meanwhile C:SM has a wargear section with various sub sections like weapons and armor.

Which would be all fine and dandy, except that the entry for the "Special Issue Wargear" then tells you to refer back to the BRB were the specific item is found in a subsection of the "Weapons" category.

 

Let me ask you to walk through the steps for taking wargear.

 

Codex Dark Angels has a model that has an entry that says: "Model may exchange one weapon for..."

 

In Codex Dark Angels what is listed under the weapons sections of the Codex's Wargear? Grenades most certainly fall under neither weapon category.

 

A bolt pistol would be in the the ranged weapons section, a chainsword is found under close combat weapons. (Or whatever the exact titles are) Grenades are found only in the Special Issue Wargear Section. Therefore as per Codex Dark Angels grenades are viewed as special issue wargear.

 

Now once the weapons and wargear of a model are decided, we are told to reference the weapons section of the rulebook for what the rules are for an assault grenade. This is the only time that grenades are listed as a weapon. You are told to reference because they can update the rules for grenades later in another edition and not break their own codex (other than page numbers) but this does not override the actual codex label of special issue warger. It is the codex that we follow when determining what it is we can take. The rulebook is nothing more than the rules common to many and often every army. When choosing wargear it is only your own codex that matter.

I think you're missing the point. "Wargear" is a models "gear of war". All weapons are wargear(as evidenced by "weapons" being subcategories of the "wargear" sction of most codexs, and it being listed under the heading "wargear" in all unit entries. "Special Issue Wargear" isn't a label denoting "gear, not weapons", its a label denoting the "special issue" nature of certain wargear(weapons and non-weapon items). As such, this does not change the fact that a grenade is a weapon(both because it is found in the "weapons" section of the rulebook and it has a Weapon Profile).

 

You are still missing the point of what grenades are. My advice, set the core rulebook down, and slowly back away. It has no bearing on what is and isn't a weapon. If you read the first paragraph of the weapons section it even says that it is there to explain how the multitude of weapons work. If you'll also notice assault grenades are specifically under the heading of grenades, not melee weapons, not ranged weapons.

 

Let me ask you to answer a few questions, and when I have time I'll return to the discussion.

 

First off, is there any rule in the rulebook that tells you what a unit is classified as in C:DA?

 

Are there any rules in the Core rulebook that tell you that your space marines are Infantry?

 

Is their any rule in the rulebook that tells you how to play your exact army?

 

In which book are we told what a model of that army may take as wargear?

 

In which book are grenades specifically placed under the heading, "Special Issue Wargear?"

 

Which book is used to decide what wargear and models for that army are classified as?

 

Here's some hints to the rest of my points. C:SM list frag grenades and krak grenades as weapons, yet C:DA does not. C:DA says weapons may be swapped for another, yet you can't take a multi-melta on your commander despite it being both a weapon and listed in your own codex with a statline. There are reasons for both of these, think on them and I'll gladly come back when I have a little more time.

[dswanick]

Here's some hints to the rest of my points. C:SM list frag grenades and krak grenades as weapons, yet C:DA does not. C:DA says weapons may be swapped for another, yet you can't take a multi-melta on your commander despite it being both a weapon and listed in your own codex with a statline. There are reasons for both of these, think on them and I'll gladly come back when I have a little more time.

No need.  I'll just agree that we disagree, and move on...

 

I think it is sufficiently clear that it can be interpreted multiple ways, and therefore needs clarification.

[Raeven]

You are still missing the point of what grenades are. My advice, set the core rulebook down, and slowly back away. It has no bearing on what is and isn't a weapon. If you read the first paragraph of the weapons section it even says that it is there to explain how the multitude of weapons work. If you'll also notice assault grenades are specifically under the heading of grenades, not melee weapons, not ranged weapons.

 

Let me ask you to answer a few questions, and when I have time I'll return to the discussion.

 

First off, is there any rule in the rulebook that tells you what a unit is classified as in C:DA?

 

Are there any rules in the Core rulebook that tell you that your space marines are Infantry?

 

In which book are grenades specifically placed under the heading, "Special Issue Wargear?"

 

Which book is used to decide what wargear and models for that army are classified as?

 

Here's some hints to the rest of my points. C:SM list frag grenades and krak grenades as weapons, yet C:DA does not. C:DA says weapons may be swapped for another, yet you can't take a multi-melta on your commander despite it being both a weapon and listed in your own codex with a statline. There are reasons for both of these, think on them and I'll gladly come back when I have a little more time.

 

The majority of your questions ARE answered in the Core Rule Book.

 

Unit Types pg. 44-49  Give you the base rules for each unit classification.

 

Unit Types pg. 44  Infantry rules

Grenades are placed in the "Special Issue Wargear" section.  In all other cases they are listed under the category of Weapon.  In fact, your own codex contradicts your argument. 

BRB Weapon Chapter, pg. 62.

Dark Angels Codex pg. 105 Profiles.  Melee Weapons list Krak and Melta Bombs and Ranged Weapons list Frag Grenades.

 

By your argument, a Servo Arm isn't a weapon because it is listed in the Special Issue Wargear section.