Firepower Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 OK, so I've tried everything I can with Vallejo Surface Primer, and it won't work for me. It looks pretty and colors go on very well, but it is not scratch resistant at all. I have tried everything, and I officially give up on it. So now, looking around for alternatives, I have come to look at Tamiya Liquid Primer for use in my airbrush. It's expensive, as is thinner, so I want to be absolutely sure that it is going to meet my requirements- smooth, takes acrylic (Vallejo and GW) colors well, and passes the fingernail-scratch test without exception. So, does anyone have experience using this stuff through an airbrush? I'd like to hear from as many people as possible so as to avoid wasting cash and tons of time working with another primer that won't meet my needs. And please, no suggestions on how else to try using the vallejo. I'm not exaggerating when I say I've tried everything- clean models, unclean models, dusted, thin, and thick layers, varnish after prime, varnish after undercoats, varnish after each coat, varnish only after final coat, gloss varnish, matte varnish, satin varnish, gloss varnish covered with satin varnish, gloss varnish covered in matte varnish, 24 hour curing time, 48 hour curing time, 1 week of curing time, matte medium mixed in with the primer, a new bottle of primer. I. Give. Up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.k.i.t.t.l.e Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 Holy cow, you really did try everything. :/ Well I hope your next primer is better. Will be interesting to hear about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3342425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 Yeah well, I won't buy it til I get some concrete advice about it. Reports and reviews and questions I've read from searches are all over the place. I'm not spending $20 bucks and another huge chunk of my free time on a second lost cause. Most folks I have brought it up with in other forums just suggest using the spray cans, because none of them have tried the liquid. Sort of eliminates the point, now doesn't it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3342447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newtype Posted April 4, 2013 Share Posted April 4, 2013 I've used the Tamiya Fine Primer (Spray can) on plastic and resin with good results. The other product to try is the Mr. Surfacer range from Gunze Sangyo Here are a couple of links for you on using Mr. Surfacer http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/13/p/40264/423872.aspx and http://www.swannysmodels.com/Surfacer.html Your local hobby shop shouldcarry them. Good luck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3342483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 I've no interest in spray cans. That sort of misses the whole point of what I'm going for here. As for how it compares to airbrushing, I have read that there are several different types of Tamiya primer, but can't find much of anything on the Liquid primer's results on plastic, much less its durability and not a peep about how it works with vallejo or GW paints. The Mr Surfacer is interesting, and pops up quite often in what I've read. There are still the same unanswered questions though. Airbrushing was supposed to make this hobby easier. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3342549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share Posted April 4, 2013 OK, so looking a bit more into Mr. Surfacer brings two questions that I can't seem to get out of anyone. 1- Mr Surfacer is a lacquer. Vallejo paints and GW paints are water based acrylics. Will Vallejo or GW paints have a hard time bonding to or covering a lacquer primer? Having a strong primer won't do me any good if the paints peel right off of it, or won't stick to it in the first place. 2- In all the hobby articles I read about Mr Surfacer, they constantly refer to sanding the models after priming. None of the forums where I read these are doing fine detail models like Warhammer figures, but big, flat surfaces. Will Mr. Surfacer have to be sanded? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3342928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 I use Alclad primers through an airbrush, and find that as long as I let them dry properly, slapping acrylics on them is fine. If it's a large surface and I want to have a real smooth finish on it, I'll sand it down with very fine grit paper, but for most mini's with the Alclad's you should be fine without sanding. You will need to play around with getting the right psi and distance to get the right coverage without it getting fluffy or too runny, but that's no difference to using paint through the AB really. I'd say the Tamiya liquid primer would be similar to the Surfacer options and not too much difference to Alclads. There is a website that talks about using the various paint types and which ones should be first. Something like Lacquer -> Enamel -> Acrylic, IIRC. I'll have a scan for the website for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3346575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 Thanks. Someone on another forum just tried out Tamiya himself, and shared the results with me. It failed the fingernail scratch as well. I know there are lots of harsh chemicals in a spray can that help the primer bite into a surface, but considering the popularity of airbrushing I was hoping that at least one option out there could rival a spray can :verymad: That's not to say the airbrush won't do wonders for basecoating and zenithal paint, but a very large portion of the reasoning behind springing for an AB in the first place was faster, more accurate and more effective priming! :cuss :cuss :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 10, 2013 Share Posted April 10, 2013 Prime on plastic / resin, let it cure and then try to scratch the primer off? Let me slap some Alclad on a test mini for you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 10, 2013 Author Share Posted April 10, 2013 I've been informed by the guy testing this for me that the tamiya actually has passed the nail test. Originally he was scratching a part that he only gave a light coat. :P So as long as vallejo paint clings well to it, it fits my needs. Still waiting for the results on that, but most (but not all) the things I have read online suggestes that a water based acrylic will work fine over a lacquer. Would still be nice to hear how this alclad stuff works though (don't bother with resin, never use the stuff). No stone unturned and all that :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Here's a spare bit of plastic... http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2846_zps525299d3.jpg http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2847_zpsda7827ef.jpg I'll give it the scrape test after it's had time to cure. EDIT: I havent used this stuff for a while, but I'd forgotton how much it reminds me of the stuff used in the Citadel Spray cans. It's got a very similar stink and similar texture to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 That's about 1/2hr+ of dry time for one coat. Alclad do state to put two coats down with a minimum of 1/2 hr between them. The scratching you can see in the middle is light / mid pressure with a thumbnail. The little bit that does show the plastic through was done with what I would call excessive force. I'd argue that that amount of directed force can't really be protected against. As it stands, that primer layer gives a good base for the paint to adhere to. Varnish at the end to protect... http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2849_zps0b214840.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkMark Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 Not quite what you're asking for, but this new primer from AK interactive should be worth a look: http://www.ak-interactive-usa.com/175.html Reviews: http://akinteractive.foroactivo.com/t1465-new-ak-primertesting http://akinteractive.foroactivo.com/t1471-playing-with-rust-effects-colors-and-the-new-primer Most of my hobby product money goes to AK these days. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 I've had it suggested elsewhere, but seeing as it's another waterbased polymer primer (just like vallejo), I doubt it would fair much better in terms of my scratch tests. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I done a bit more rough handling of the dozer blade earlier. http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2850_zps6044fc43.jpg http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2851_zps06ab1893.jpg http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2852_zps9353bd74.jpg Normally, the parts that would be adversely affected by the rough handling would be the edging , especially around the bottom spikes. Apart from my very deliberate thumbnail scrape, the primer is intact in all these other areas. I'd say that's a thumbs up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Interesting result MK. I take it you did go after those edges like you mentioned? And what sort of rough handling? I may have to take a closer look at this stuff and see what the price differences may turn out to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 I rough handled it as I would in a "worst case" scenario. I'd be tempted to say that if I left the primer harden overnight, then the scratch mark I did manage to make may have been lessened or not at all. The Alclad was about £5 for 125ml, if I remember, so it may be better value than the Tamiya or Mr Surfacer stuff. You can also get it in White, Grey, Black or Gloss Black. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 Hm, well it's certainly a lot cheaper than Tamiya. A 4oz can of the stuff costs about the same as a 40ml bottle (nearly a 3:1 difference). Do you need to use the same brand's lacquer thinners and airbrush cleaner? Actually I don't see any thinner listed... The directions on the website ( http://www.scalehobbyist.com/manufacturers/Alclad_Paints/Paints/ALC00000302/product.php?s=3&t=1&man=alc )are kinda odd too. Specifically the last two- Back ALCLAD II with any dark color. Clean with lacquer thinners I'm not really sure what either of those mean. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 You just need some Lacquer thinners for cleaning the brush out. http://www.scalehobbyist.com/manufacturers/Alclad_Paints/Paints/ALC00000307/product.php?s=3&t=1&u=3&pg=1&ppp=48&sb=stocknumber&so=a&man=alc EDIT: Any Lacquer / Cellulose thinners should do for this. Bear in mind the instructions are for using the primers for their lacquer range of paints. Dark colours need to have the gloss black or black primer with microfiller. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 So then the instructions have nothing to do with me if I plan to use water based acrylics instead of their lacquers post-priming? In terms of durability though, I'm coming to suspect that nothing from an airbrush will truly rival the cans. Case in point, the 'excessive force' nail scratch that took the primer off on your test model. I have several pieces of scrap plastic lying around primed with GW black spray, and I cannot get it off a flat surface with my nails. Period. I can barely get it off raised edges with the hardest clawing I can give it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 So then the instructions have nothing to do with me if I plan to use water based acrylics instead of their lacquers post-priming? In terms of durability though, I'm coming to suspect that nothing from an airbrush will truly rival the cans. Case in point, the 'excessive force' nail scratch that took the primer off on your test model. I have several pieces of scrap plastic lying around primed with GW black spray, and I cannot get it off a flat surface with my nails. Period. I can barely get it off raised edges with the hardest clawing I can give it. If you were going to use it, just prime the model, leave alone for a few hours, then paint over with acrylics and then varnish. Durability? I'd say this is as close as you're going to get. Bear in mind that I scraped that off in one area after the paint only being on for around 30 mins or so. I've just tried scraping it again now, which is around 20 hrs ? later and I haven't yet managed to get through the primer layer. http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p724/MK_Loken/IMG_2853_zps01bef84f.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 ha! took me a while, but I found the website regarding all this stuff. http://www.swannysmodels.com/Alclad.html enjoy! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 It sure looks like you broke through with those three scratches on the bottom :P But the vallejo would've been in ribbons from that sort of punishment. Is that the black or the gray? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorKhaos Posted April 11, 2013 Share Posted April 11, 2013 It sure looks like you broke through with those three scratches on the bottom But the vallejo would've been in ribbons from that sort of punishment. Is that the black or the gray? Those three at the bottom have gone through as much as the grid of lines above, that'll be the light / camera angle showing it wrong. And yes, that's the Black Primer and Microfiller. I do have the gloss black and grey primes around here somewhere too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted April 11, 2013 Author Share Posted April 11, 2013 What is the microfiller, and will I need that too? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273691-tamiya-liquid-primer/#findComment-3347961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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