How do you play against a Gunline?

[Tiger9gamer]

So last night I barely won against a C:SM gunline list, and I had my entire army gutted by the overwhelming firepower. barely had anything left on the table, and only won with help from some people watching the game. (also I was a whinny baby who threatened to quit 3-4 times because I couldnt see a way to win Something I need to work on)

Anyways, what should I run for a gunline? My vindicators always get blown up turn one, my Land raider get's smashed and my Warlord and knights keep rolling ones. any help, brothers?

Edit!!: list i used is the http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272838-daemon-world-tournament-prep/

C-c-combo edit!: Mission was Emperor's will, so pretty much attack/defend

[Chaplain Killmer]

Maybe nothing all to new for you but here my 2 cents.

 

terrain set up

 

if you expect an opponent to play with the gunline of instant annihilation - set up terrain to block fields of fire. If you have mission objectives: force him to move his ass ;). That sounds wierd but if the terrain is only set in deployment zones or not blocking off any areas of the play field - your warlord would not have choosen that place or that force ;)

 

devide the fire by offering more than one target

 

I am always going by the rule if you take armored units like tanks tranports or dreads do not take just one. Take a few if you can. This way focussing the fire is getting harder for the gunline guys. This leads directly to the next point

 

put your whole army on the table

 

if you put many units in reserve - your opponent has less choice of targets and will automatically focus fire on fewer units...

 

Just some thoughts.

 

 

[Tiger9gamer]

I added a link to the list, and I will add that the mission was Emperor's will. so attack and defend.

[Lysere]

Saturation of targets. This is really the only good way to deal with a gunline other than using a wall of steel bunkers they can hardly crack. Since I doubt many people are fond of running 3-4 land raider lists its best to just go for numbers. Run 3 vindis instead of one, don't run land raiders at all, more squads with your firepower mixed around.

 

Essentially make it so wiping out 2-3 units in the first turn doesn't slow you down. a Fortress of redemption would also have fun against a gunline but that's expensive on both ways.

 

Otherwise massive alpha strike. Hide a few fast units out of his sight, then accurately deepstrike an entire army on him. Anything to give you the first brutal barrage helps.

[Tiger9gamer]

Hmmm, I see. Should I have brought Deathwing in place of the vindicators? or in place of the landraider?

[Lysere]

I'd say in place of the land raider. When running land raiders you really only have two things to use them as. Fire support, and transport. Depending on what exact land raider your running which they are better at will vary, but running just one will usually get it killed. 2-3 Vindis is much scarier to an enemy relying on large numbers of shooting than a Land Raider. Deep striking in a squad of tough and very shooty termies is also good.

[Tiger9gamer]

hmmmmokay. had a list that replaced the LRC with two Tactical terminator squads and one knight squad.

 

also, only have2 vindicators :(

[notmattlythgoe]

What about running a landraider and 2 vindicators?

[Aromir]

A relevatively small and cheap improvement, could be adding a Techmarine with a PFG and stick him in the LRC and then deploy the vindicators on either side within 3" of the LRC. Then advance with them together. It should double the amount of firepower your vindicators can take and perhaps give them a chance to shoot a few holes in his gunline. And even if they don't, it still means that the rest of your army took a lot less damage.

 

For 80pts. thats a good deal in my oppinion.

[Tiger9gamer]

well, I did do the LAnd raider/ 2 vindis :/ but, what should I replace for the Tech marine?

 

 

also, my opponent is Stupid lucky with orbital bombardment ._. I did do the "group all the heavies together" tactic once against him, and 1st turn.... ka-Boom!! 250pts of tanks gone :/ 

[Aromir]

Well 4++ Inv save helps alot more than you think and with all the death-cans you are running i am sure you will a use for it after the vindicators are dead.

 

Where to get the points?

 

That depends which one of the lists you posted you are actually running. 

 

If it is the first one, then it is rather easy, drop the typhoon and the multi-melta on the LRC, thats 85 points and then you have 5 to spare.

 

The second list i would drop the terminator armour on the IC, I am not sure why you have that in the first place, if you are not deepstriking the terminators. It just seems like a very exspensive way to give up one attack with one of the best weapons we have in our arsenal and that is a hell of price to pay for just improving his save from 3+ to 2+.

 

To make up the rest, the obivious choice would be dropping some veteran sergeants or in fact all of them unless you find other places to cut. 

[Jehoel]

Well, looks like your trying to do a gun line of your own without the benefit of the dakkabanner (the Standard of Devastation). Not sure if that is a good idea.

Editted because I'm blind and missed the Rhinos.

[Tiger9gamer]

Which ones are static? they all drive around in rhinos and razorbacks.

 

And it's the first one, so I guess the typhoon?

[Landdavi]

In due time, what do you think about 5 typhoons with missile launcher, heavy bolter, a libby and PFG in lieu of Vindis and LRC?

 

Advantages -  

Stand off  -  36 inches

Firepower - 10 Str 8, AP3 and 15 Str 5 shots that are twin linked 

Survivability -  10 Hull points with a 4++ Save, You can deep strike the whole unit if there is no cover to deal with the enemy's first strike and with 36 - 48 in range pick the target you want when you arrive.  

 

I play a Nurgle Army this weekend and my main concern is Heldrakes but I think even with 6s to hit a flyer, this unit could do some damage to a ground target in turn one and still give Heldrake(s) something to worry about when reserves come in.  

[Tiger9gamer]

I thought the range was 48 O-o

[Artemid]

The Heavy Bolters are only 36". The missiles are 48".

[Tiger9gamer]

oh, okay. 

 

Maybe that would be a good idea too. or maybe trade 250pts of vindicators for a uber squad of black knights?

[Azoriel]

When you say C:SM gunline, can you be more specific?  (Can you provide a gist of what the enemy list looked like?)

[Tiger9gamer]

Aegis line, Tons of heavy weapons, thunderfire, and Pedro.

[Azoriel]

Hm...  So it's all static long-range firepower (implying you won't be facing melta)?  Any chance of running 2x LRC?  LRCs containing squads with PFG Techmarines attached could cause great pain.  Rhinos could ride behind, taking advantage of cover and ++ saves from the LRCs.  Having two will ensure he doesn't take out all your units in one orbital bombardment.  (Could be a bit on the pricey side points-wise, though; I suggest it only because I think it'll be a less radical change to your list than trying to have everyone alpha strike, which is probably the better option.)

[Tanhausen]

IMO, the problem isn't the opponent and his gunline...but your list. For the sake of clarity, I'll paste/comment here:

 

Warlord: Interrogator-chaplain Mordecai (Terminator armor, Mace of Redemption)-175pts

 Role: go with the DWK and chomp chomp, kill kill

 

Elite 1: Deathwing Knights (5 vets w/Land Raider crusader (multi-melta)-525pts

 

 Role: beat face. This unit (along with the IC) will have to bear at least 1 turn of shooting if you DS... which in front of a clear-priority opponent means forcing you to roll many saves. If you decide you roll them in their safe box, it takes AT LEAST 3 turns to get to his deployment...he has pleeeeeeeeenty of time to shoot where and what he want, with 0 pressure.

 

Elite 2: Mortis Dreadnaught (x2 autocannons)-125pts

 Role: mid table threat...but pretty meh IMO

 

Troop 1: Tactical squad (10 man, Veteran sergeant,  melta gun, Combi-melta, melta bombs, rhino)-210pts

Troop 2: Tactical squad (10 man, Veteran Sergeant, flamer, Combi-flamer, melta bombs Rhino)-205pts

 

 Role: Unclear...mid field? Back field?

 

Troop 3: Tactical squad (5 man, Veteran sergeant, Plasma rifle, combi-plasma, TLLC razorback)-180pts

Troop 4: Tactical squad (5 man, Veteran sergeant, Plasma rifle, combi-plasma, TLLC razorback)-180pts

 

 Role: Backfield to use the razors?

 

H/S 2: Vindicator-125pts

H/S 3: Vindicator-125pts

 

 Role: midfield domination

 

Obviously, the roles are what I understand from the list.

 

You onle have 1 unit to actually run into the enemy and punch his face (usually the best way to tackle a gunline, with multiple assaults so you don't overkill and get stranded in the middle of firing lanes).

 

My suggestion? Try and develop the roles a bit and identify where you want to be stronger.

 

Hope it helps :)

[Tiger9gamer]

IMO, the problem isn't the opponent and his gunline...but your list. For the sake of clarity, I'll paste/comment here:

 

Warlord: Interrogator-chaplain Mordecai (Terminator armor, Mace of Redemption)-175pts

 Role: go with the DWK and chomp chomp, kill kill

 

Elite 1: Deathwing Knights (5 vets w/Land Raider crusader (multi-melta)-525pts

 

 Role: beat face. I never DS them. that's just silly. but, I roll ones with every group of armor saves I have... ticks me off ever so slightly.

 

Elite 2: Mortis Dreadnaught (x2 autocannons)-125pts

 Role: This guy is a beast in every game I have him in. He killed so much!

 

Troop 1: Tactical squad (10 man, Veteran sergeant,  melta gun, Combi-melta, melta bombs, rhino)-210pts

Troop 2: Tactical squad (10 man, Veteran Sergeant, flamer, Combi-flamer, melta bombs Rhino)-205pts

 

 Role: these guys roll forwards with my vindis and LRC to add more targets and to grab objectives. how do they look mid-field?

 

Troop 3: Tactical squad (5 man, Veteran sergeant, Plasma rifle, combi-plasma, TLLC razorback)-180pts

Troop 4: Tactical squad (5 man, Veteran sergeant, Plasma rifle, combi-plasma, TLLC razorback)-180pts

 

 Role: sits in back to get objectives or drives around to grab line breaker. Sometimes they both attack one thing to pile on the plasma wounds.

 

 

H/S 2: Vindicator-125pts

H/S 3: Vindicator-125pts

 

 Role: midfield domination When they survive turn one and actually hit stuff. These guys are some of the biggest failures in most games. Actually looking to get rid of them. 

 

I have H/S 1&2, LRC, and Troops 1 and two driving forwards while some things sit in back and plink away.

[Artemid]

I got an LRC load of Knights into melee on turn 2 playing the short edges deployment so you should be fine. Flat out turn one, should be in charge range unloading and moving 6" T2.

 

Do you drive the two Rhinos up behind the Vindis with the LRC? They should be able to screen the Rhinos so you can get those two close range loadout tac squads into effective Special range.

 

Something else worth considering might be dropping the LRC for some drop pods to force your opponent to have to make decisions about where his fire goes when everything lands. This helps cover anything else moving up. I'm not sure it's worth it with plain Tac squads though.

[jeremy1391]

Counter a gun line with a gun line. Dakka standard, as many tacs as you can, rifleman dreads, ac/lc preds.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

To be honest drop deathwing in front of him. 2-3 units one with belial, all heavy weaponed with a hammer in each facing forward. Concentrate fire on what can realistically hurt the terms, do it on turn 1 and hopefully there will be too many targets. I normally aim for a turn 2 assault with at least 1 unit and tie up the army as mine advances.