Custom Heroes Take 2

[Stupid Waldo]

So I'm really struggling on trying to effectively balance a homebrewed hero.  I want to know If anyone has an idea of what various stat increases would cost points wise, what abilities would cost, things like that.  I have in my head ideas that I want to work with to make new heroes, but i don't want them to be ridiculously overpowered, or terribly underpowered for their points cost.  If anyone has anything that would help, i'd greatly appreciate it.

[Raven Angel]

Need the rules in order to gage cost. Also I think if you can use existing rules from the different codexes or the BGB that will help as these are often found on other characters and can have cost reverse engineered.

[Demus Ragnok]

Have looked at the Rule Generator: Chapter Heros thread in this forum? It may be helpfull.

[Stupid Waldo]

Where is this rule generator at? I have been unable to find it

And Raven, there are a couple of problems with that. Certain heroes obviously do not pay anything for some of their abilities (ex. chaplain cassius) which makes it much harder to figure out how much something should be worth wargear and ability wise. Even more difficult are stat changes, say adding an extra wound, or things like that. It's very difficult to figure out where they got the points costs from to match the rules. And the whole idea of my question here was not necessarily for a single hero (i tried that already and didn't really get much feedback). I want to figure out a foolproof way of making numerous balanced heroes (I want to eventually have 10 unique captains all with custom stats, rules and wargear, along with chapter masters and other characters) currently i've been struggling with the 3 heroes I have so far in trying to balance them

Nevermind I found the generator, thanks a bunch

Having found that, I have another question. What would be gained for getting rid of equipment? for example what if i didn't want my captain to have frag or krak grenades? what would I gain from taking them back?

Additionally said generator includes very limited abilities to create ranged weapons, and none at all to create custom melee weapons. I see those both as major failings, because for space marines, much of their capabilities will stem from their weapons and wargear. In that vein, what do you think it would cost for a relic blade that hits at AP 2 with preferred enemy (everything - except for vehicles)?

[Raven Angel]

frag and krack grenades are only worth 3pts.

[Demus Ragnok]

The OP doesn't mention which codex you are using but here is a little info for C:SM. I compared special characters to similar vanilla HQs. Kantor is 22 pts more than a Master with the same wargear. Lysander is 30 pts more that a captain. Shrike 40, Vulkan 30, and Kahn 44. Not factored into my calculations are Vulkan's heavy flamer as that isn't an option for a captain which ,stat wise, is what Vulkan is. Heavy flamers are a 5 or 10 point option for some other units in the codex so... whats the point of this you ask? Consider these characters, do they have special wargear?, if so what? Do they confer USRs? If so how much impact can those rules have? Then look at the above point differences compared to the character's features and make a guess at the relative value of the character's traits. Other codicies likely have more insight into the value of USRs but I had C:SM at hand.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      

[Stupid Waldo]

I too am using C:SM. And the biggest thing that they have for their points are their myriad of abilities and fancy wargear stuff. Like you say that Vulkan for instance is 30 points more than a captain with the same wargear. What wargear is that? relic blade, artificer armor and storm shield (for the 3++)? don't forget that his 3++ doesn't take up a hand (which has his flamer), his relic blade is master crafted and his twin-linking and master-crafting rule. Its things like those that I need to know. What are the points for the things not mentioned in the codex? I want to know this so that I can create powerful characters like those, who while being more expensive are also more useful

 

And raven, the generator says they cost 3points, but in the codex they come standard. So would it gain me 3 points to get rid of them?

[Raven Angel]

Yes but then you wont have them when charging into cover or attacking light vehicles. On USR I tend to price them between 10 and 20 pts each depending on how disruptive they are.

[Demus Ragnok]

Alright Vulkan is a captain w/ relic blade storm shield and artificer armor, plus master crafting on relic blade for say 5pts and another 5 for his HF gauntlet. And then we know how much his chapter tactics costs.

[Stupid Waldo]

I understand.  Thats how the generator was figured out.  What i'm asking is how would you go about creating rules for something that the generator doesn't cover? Like custom melee weapons with changed AP and Strength values, or adding abilities that aren't covered, like preferred enemy

[Demus Ragnok]

Simple...guess. And if opponents cry fowl adjust your calculations.

[Stupid Waldo]

Well I want to be as accurate as possible.  I'm going all out with customizing my heroes and I really don't want them to be underpowered or overpowered.  On top of that, out of the group I play against, I am by far the most experienced person, and I still don't know what I'm doing when it comes to this.  I'm just saying that if people have an idea for what something should be worth, like 'fleshbane is 5points on either a ranged or melee weapon or 10 on a character' It would be most appreciated (I know that fleshbane is going to be more expensive than that, just giving a simple example)

[Raven Angel]

Balancing a character can be far more difficult than a tank. ultimately it requires alot more play-testing.

[Stupid Waldo]

Well I guess I'm going to try play testing it.  The problem is how do you know if its underpowered or overpowered?  If you design a character to do something well, they should do that well, and thats all you should use them for really.  Thats the problem I've had in the past.  How do you know if they're too strong, or just doing what they're good at?

[Raven Angel]

Characters should be good but the better they are the more they should cost. Really powerful characters  can be more expensive then a Land Raider. Both Logan Grimnar and Kaldor Drago are 275pts. If the guy is really good don't be afraid to up the cost or lower it if he is not as good as you thought. try 5 or 10pt intervals up or down until the cost is appropriate to the ability.

[Stupid Waldo]

what I always do to start, is use whatever i'm going to for the base (for the current hero i'm using vulkan as my base).  Then i upgrade them, adding points for every stat boost, ability and wargear boost that i give them.  And then I fine tune it depending on how well they work

[Raven Angel]

That's what you got to do.

[Stupid Waldo]

On a slightly unrelated side note, what do you believe the points increase would be to go from a S9 AP4 Heavy 1 Large Blast to an S9 AP4 Heavy 6?

[Raven Angel]

base cost times x 3; whats the gun and the cost?

[Stupid Waldo]

I don't know.  It was a question from a friend, who didn't like the blast template, so he wanted to change it to something that hits a little better.

[Raven Angel]

We talking about the LAC on the tank? If so that change would up the cots of the tank to 345pts

[Stupid Waldo]

not quite lol. Just getting an estimate for a custom weapon for a hero for a friend.  There's no good explanation lorewise for a gun that strong with that high of a rate of fire

[Stupid Waldo]

wait 345?? how much is the base for the tank? i thought it was 145 for the LAC and no other upgrades (just the hull HB and the 13/12/11 AVs)

[Raven Angel]

345pts is the tank with a Heavy 6 LAC but modeling that would be interesting.