Mephiston vs Monstrous Creatures

[SamaNagol]

Just looking at the new Greater Daemons and was thinking about running the numbers on Mephiston versus the various MCs in the game.

 

I already know he loses to the Swarmlord pretty badly, the Dreadknight needs to pass on average 4 saves to stay alive and there is a 66% chance that the Blood Thirster will decapitate him. Anyone ever run the numbers and math-hammered it out against the other major MCs in the game?

 

Tervigons, Chaos Space Marine DPs, other Greater Daemons etc etc

[Cmdr Shepard]

His lack of invul save hurts his effectiveness against MCs, unless you can acquire an invul with some of the pyschic powers he can take ;)

[Vivster]

He will lose to the Swarmlord

[Cmdr Shepard]

He will lose to the Swarmlord

 

I think OP already knows it since he mentioned it in the post ;)... I believe he is curious to know how will he perfom against other MCs

[Rutzah]

Well besides the fact that Mephi has no invu, which is a major drawback (unless you play with a priest and he is nearby), i think its a matter of Initiatives. You have to be very lucky in order to survive against a Blood Thirster, considering that he strikes first and rolls of 6 are instant death.

 

Your best chance is to roll with biomancy and hope for iron arm and/or warp speed. Iron arm just because of the eternal warrior rule which is extremely awesome and warp speed so you can strike first. Of course you lose wings which is bad, but you can throw him in a raven and make him a FMC. Thats almost 500pts though, so i dont really know if its the best way to go, but i cant of anything else you can do against MCs with higher initiatives.

[Brother Ambroz]

A CSM DP with a black mace would likely tear Mephiston apart as long as he didn't roll a 1 with his daemon weapon.

 

Problem you'll run into is most of these MCs have very high initiative, tons of attacks and a fair number also have the potential for ID. I think your best option if you're going to run Mephiston is to go with Biomancy and hope for Iron Arm.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Well besides the fact that Mephi has no invu, which is a major drawback (unless you play with a priest and he is nearby), i think its a matter of Initiatives. You have to be very lucky in order to survive against a Blood Thirster, considering that he strikes first and rolls of 6 are instant death.

 

Your best chance is to roll with biomancy and hope for iron arm and/or warp speed. Iron arm just because of the eternal warrior rule which is extremely awesome and warp speed so you can strike first. Of course you lose wings which is bad, but you can throw him in a raven and make him a FMC. Thats almost 500pts though, so i dont really know if its the best way to go, but i cant of anything else you can do against MCs with higher initiatives.

 

Another option would come from Divination (BA can take divination right?) since there is a power that gives you a 4++ invul save. Mephiston struggles against AP2 attacks, esepcially those striking first...

 

 

A CSM DP with a black mace would likely tear Mephiston apart as long as he didn't roll a 1 with his daemon weapon.

 

Problem you'll run into is most of these MCs have very high initiative, tons of attacks and a fair number also have the potential for ID. I think your best option if you're going to run Mephiston is to go with Biomancy and hope for Iron Arm.

 

Beside consider those MCs often come in groups... If players want to use FMC daemons they will likely field 2 of them for example. With the double FoC at 200 pts they can field up to 4 and most of the time two of them will fly side by side so the chances to have two MCs charging in the same turn is not low.

[tomjoad]

But, if you roll on Biomancy or Divination, Mephiston is just some slow dork. He loses S10, Preferred Enemy and his jump pack, which will reduce the effectiveness of literally everything you want him to do. Plus, your odds of getting Iron Arm or the 4++ power aren't good since he doesn't get a ton of rolls. Also, being so slow, how would Mephiston ever get into combat with a MC that he could beat? They just fly away and kill what little you can afford to field after using so many points on this tiny over-costed guy.

 

Without running the numbers, I'd say any FMC with reasonable shooting attacks will be a bad match for Mephiston, because a Flyrant or Lord of Change can just stay in the air and gun down your Razorbacks/tacs/ASMs without ever worrying about a charge. Even if they get grounded, you have to give up Wings to try getting Iron Arm, so how can you expect to catch them?

 

This is just another issue that I cannot see any way on Earth that Mephiston is the right tool for the job.

[Xenith]

Meph bullies troop choices and tanks.

 

MC's are dealt with through mass shooting and TH/SS terminators.

 

Sending him in to do something else's job wont end well.

[Papa Lazarou]

If you keep a priest nearby that will give him a 5+ fnp which is a sort inv save considering he's T6.

[Morticon]

Interesting discussion, but be careful not to confuse the academics of MC vs Meph battles with real game play aspects.  
Mephiston shlould not be wasting his time fighting fair (or unfair vs. him) fights.  He shouldnt be fighting these MCs unless he has the drop on them. Bloodthirsters, and Swarm Lords and other gribblies that can nuke him should not be gone near.  Mephy destroys chaos ground troops, he puts severe hurt on multi wound daemon beast models like screamers, flamers, fiends, crushers and nurgle duders, and can help out against all other nid units.  We have to use him like the adamantium scalpel he is, not keep confusing him for a hammer 

 

 

 

Beside consider those MCs often come in groups... If players want to use FMC daemons they will likely field 2 of them for example. With the double FoC at 200 pts they can field up to 4 and most of the time two of them will fly side by side so the chances to have two MCs charging in the same turn is not low.

 

2 Things.  

1.  I think thats fairly assumptive of a very particular playstyle.  Ive not seen 2 FMCs tag-teaming in the way you describe.  

2. If they are, then youre looking at way, way over 300+ points (closer to 400) invested to take out 250.  

[Brother Ambroz]

Morticon, the situation Cmdr Shepard is referring to I believe would be with the new Codex Daemons which hasn't been out long. It would only take one turn though for those 400+ points of FMCs to take Meph down. So depending on what's around nearby it may or may not be worth it.

 

Meph just really isn't geared to take on the bigger MCs, he should be alright vs the smaller ones (carnifex, etc) but the big guys seems like a waste of his potential as others said. That said if you do plan on it, he'd be best with Biomancy but then he'd be slow too so pick your poison.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Mephiston can always stick to area terrain. Practically none of the newest MCs have grenades.

 

Also, Morticon is quite right-- Mephiston is a quote "Adamantium Scalpel."  He is not a hammer, that is not how he works. There is a military term called a "Fleet in Being" (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being)

 

A Fleet in Being is most effective simply from the fact that it exists. Once committed, the actual effect of the Fleet is diminished because then the opponent knows when and where to deal with it. Mephiston should be your ace up the sleeve--- don't commit him until the situation is 100% in his favor. Otherwise hide him and make the enemy fret and worry about what he is going to do.

[tomjoad]

But how does a fleet in being work when both sides of a conflict are de facto equivalent in size/strength? You're talking about leaving more than 10% of your force out of the actual fight with no guarantee that a Bloodthirster won't just fly up to him and kill him anyway. I obviously won't convince anybody who is dedicated to Meph, but this is exactly why I want no part of him.

[SamaNagol]

I was just wondering on the numbers really. It's better to know them in advance before committing. 

[SamaNagol]

I am kind of amazed that he has no invulnerable save seeing as Power Weapons were even better in 5th

 

He's still really good at dealing with so many different things I wouldn't leave him out.

[Calnus]

Mephiston doesn't like 2+ armor or enemies with AP2 CC weapons.  Or anything with invul better than about 4-5++.

 

As long as he sticks to things that don't fit those criteria, he's good.  MCs typically fit one or more of the above, so in general, you stay away. 

 

Tervigons are the only safe ones that spring to mind, perhaps Necron Tomb spyders as well, due to both being slow and only having a 3+ armor with no invul save.  Anything else you either shoot to pieces or hit with TH/SS.  Preferably shoot.

[Vivster]

Abbaddon?

[SamaNagol]

Eternal Warrior and 2+ save mean Abaddon wins

[CitadelArmyGuy]

But how does a fleet in being work when both sides of a conflict are de facto equivalent in size/strength? You're talking about leaving more than 10% of your force out of the actual fight....

Ah see Fleet in Being is a defensive strategy. Fleet in Being is the option to use exactly when you are outmanned/outgunned/etc. When your opponent has zero answer to Meph then he becomes a wrecking ball, but that is actually a very rare occurence (fun though). Normally, when the opponent has credible threats towards Meph then all you have to do is keep Mephiston alive and unreachable--- this will ensure a diversion of the opponent's attention. An uncommitted Mephiston usually can spell dire consequences for an opponent's endgame. 10% of your points? Totally worth it if he distracts 25+% of the opponent's points OR effort.

 

Every decision you make generates repercussive effects on the tabletop situation. I treat Mephiston like I treat a Queen in chess--- survival first, area denial second, and IF a sacrifice is required then I do my damnedest to ensure it is on winning terms whether positionally, strategically or economically. You don't open the chess game using your Queen as a battering ram... you save the Queen for maximum utility in the end game.

 

On topic for the thread, I'd keep Meph in terrain and wait for a GD/DP to charge him making him I1 --- that way he'd have all 3 warp charge to cast Str10, PrefEnemy & activate ForceWeapon. If the GD or DP get allocated elsewhere, then Meph would go scorer-hunting, thereby drawing attention to draw them off from killing my scorers. Everything in the game is give and take, you've just got to do your best to make things occur on your terms.

 

 

For me, Mephiston embodifies the entire Blood Angels codex. Expensive and Mobile, but if employed with Finesse then distinctly durable and lethal.

[tomjoad]

I wish 40K was a game that, like Magic, the smartest players could earn reasonable supplemental incomes by writing about it, because I would love for CAG to write 5k words/week about 40K.

 

I am not convinced that Meph is worth taking all of a sudden, but that was the best stated argument in favor I've ever read.

[Vivster]

So that begs the question, do ba have any Characters that can hold their own against the likes of abaddon, draigo or calgar?

[tomjoad]

Unless you want to try with Mephiston, no. BA HQs are better spent as support units (aka the divination monkey librarian, or a shield libby). I'm sure they'll change this in the next book, given the character BAs are supposed to embody, but either unwieldy or AP3 nerf any real cc potential we would have had.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Also, Morticon is quite right-- Mephiston is a quote "Adamantium Scalpel."  He is not a hammer, that is not how he works. There is a military term called a "Fleet in Being" (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being)

 

I love when military terms are applied to describe situations and aspects of 40k... it just makes the game feel so sophisticated.  Once a military brat, always a military brat.

[Papa Lazarou]

I think a lot of good points have have been made ...........but 90% the time meph is a beat stick and will kill most characters, troops and hqs's in a heartbeat, and how often do you face I8+ with Instant death