Extreme range fire support

[AekoldHelbrass]

I had couple of games with my new EC army, and it became clear that I need some kind of extreme range fire support.

 

The problem is, Blastmaster range is "only" 48", so my zombie shield gets shot by enemy missiles. And if my opponent will take Defiler - it will be complete disaster. So I need something to effectively eliminate his defilers as soon as possible, and be able to shoot more than 48" with some kind of template.

 

And, I'm planning to take some Daemons as allies, so no IG stuff...

 

So I'm thinking about Heavy Conversion Beamer, mounted either on Decimator or on Contemptor. Another option is of course my own Defiler.

 

What do you guys think about it? Are Heavy Conversion Beamers anywhere near effective? Are there any better options? And what would you take, Decimator+HCB or Defiler?

[Bonzi]

I think you need to restate your question because I don't really understand what you are asking.  I don't understand why your blastmasters range means your zombies are getting shot by missile launchers.  There are a lot of unspoken assumptions you are going to need to spell out before this makes sense to anyone besides yourself.  I also don't understand why the Defiler is your biggest enemy and why to kill it you must have long range ordnance weapons.

 

From the sounds of it, you want long range anti-tank.  If that is the case, Oblits and Lascannon Havocks are your answer.  If you want long range large blast weapons consider a Daemon Soul Grinder with mark of Nurgle and phlem.  Cheaper and more survivable than a Defiler for the exact same purpose. Also comes with a handy skyfire weapon to round out the package.

[minigun762]

Chaos, and marines in general are mostly limited to 48" for long range firepower.

Anything longer and you're either going to need allied support or you are better of using fast moving melta platforms like deepstriking terminators.

[AekoldHelbrass]

I don't understand why your blastmasters range means your zombies are getting shot by missile launchers.  There are a lot of unspoken assumptions you are going to need to spell out before this makes sense to anyone besides yourself.  I also don't understand why the Defiler is your biggest enemy and why to kill it you must have long range ordnance weapons.

Hm... Ok, will try again:

 

battlefield:

 

_N__z__________________________________H___F__________

 

N: Noise Marines, 10 man with 2 Blastmasters. Can do absolutely nothing in CC, so CC must be avoided at all costs;

z: zombies, providing minor cover for Noises, and tarpiting any CC-oriented units;

H: grey hunters, CC-oriented, coming in Rhinos for my Noises;

F: long fangs, more than 48" from Noises but closer than 48" to zombies; so zombies are they only target, and they are clearing the way for grey hunters;

 

If I was playing against another Chaos, Defiler would deploy even farther and shoot my Noises to pieces, because more than 48" is a blind spot for me.

 

So I need some kind of long range fire support, more than 48". And the question is:

 

Have you had any experience with Heavy Conversion Beamer? If you did - was it problematic because of 42"-72" range? If you need up to 72" fire support, would you take Decimator with Heavy Conversion Beamer, or Defiler, or Soul Grinder?

[Bonzi]

#1.  I have no experience with forgeworld stuff.

 

#2.  If your opponent is killing Zombies with Long Fangs you are winning at life and your opponent is losing.  A missile to kill a 6pt model is a bargin.

 

#3.  Your answer is in Oblits, Havocks and Soul Grinders for busting Rhinos and killing Long Fangs.

 

#4.  Keep your NM back from the objectives until the last second.  This forces a CC opponent to come to your troops and ignore the objective or to sit on the objective while you shoot him off of it.  If you sit on the objective with your shooty unit then it becomes a double win for your CC opponent to charge you, beat you to death, and take the objective all in one go.

 

#5.  Your focus on this issue seems one dimensional.  What is the rest of your army doing?  Why are you spending so many points to protect your Noise Marines?  The objective of the game isn't to keep Noise Marines alive, why play like it is?  What to take in a situation like this is dependent on your whole army build.  Right now you are matching two units up against two other units and asking how to beat the stalemate.  My answer is, what is the rest of your army doing?

 

For myself, I would be busting the Rhinos with my Oblits, Blastmasters, and Soul Grinders while putting the pressure on the Grey Hunters with my Bikers, Seekers, and Daemonettes.  I would keep in mind that the only thing he can do after disembarking a Rhino is shoot, which gives me a turn of my own shooting and counter-charge.  Given that I pack plasma cannons, torrent flamers, and blastmasters while he packs plasma guns and missile launchers, I win the shooting equation VS meq.

[AekoldHelbrass]

#2. If your opponent is killing Zombies with Long Fangs you are winning at life and your opponent is losing. A missile to kill a 6pt model is a bargin.

He is basically clearing the way for his CC units, so I'm not a big fan of my zombies being shot at.

#5. Your focus on this issue seems one dimensional. What is the rest of your army doing? Why are you spending so many points to protect your Noise Marines? The objective of the game isn't to keep Noise Marines alive, why play like it is? What to take in a situation like this is dependent on your whole army build. Right now you are matching two units up against two other units and asking how to beat the stalemate. My answer is, what is the rest of your army doing?

4 squads of Noise Marines on full load, 2-3 squads of zombies, 2 baledrakes, 2 HQ and heavy support depending on remaining points. Not much of an army, full gunline. So answering the question what the rest of my army are doing - they are shooting.

Daemonettes are good idea, will try that one. And probably outflanking Seekers will be helpful too, if there will be enough players willing to play on 3000

[Tenebris]

As I see it we are quite limited in the long range compartment with Havocs and Defiler filling the niche. The Obliterators are in this edition a middle ground unit due to their weapon choices being awesome at the 24'' range with the occasional lascannon and assault cannon as nice choices when the need arises. 

 

I think that chaos is not a good army for a static gunline, indeed zombies are great meat shields but you could do with basic cultists too, even the squads of twenty marines have quite some bodies and weapons but still the operative range of a chaos arms is IMO 24''- 36'' with the occasional Noise Marine and Havoc unit that covers the 48''.

 

If I remember correctly even the developer in the White Dwarf number that presented the new CSM explained that the chaos space marines are not a defensive army and that the codex should be played offensively. That is why we have better than average melee units, tough units and fast units that are all competitive. 

 

I believe that you should include some mobile elements in your army and inflict pressure on your opponents with melee counterattacks. Charge them with Maulerfiends instead of keeping behind a wall of zombies and you will see plenty of enemy firepower diverted on the daemon engines instead to your ranged elements.

[Bonzi]

I would agree with Tenebris, you are playing far too static of a list to work well as a CSM army.  Noise Marines are awesome but they can't carry a static gunline like IG or Tau.  You also have no answer to AV 14 or 2+ saves.

 

If you want full gunline you need to ally Imperial Guard for long range and AP 2 pie plates.  Otherwise you need to bring in some anti-tank and pressure units to tie the enemy up before they get to your gunline.  Bikers are a solid investment and could give you an anti-tank / tarpit unit.  A pair of Soul Grinders could also see a lot of utility as they can shoot and then counter-charge units before they can hit your NM.

[Capt_Darius]

So you're basically using your zombies as a grot-screen for what really is nothing more than 8 blastmasters? And you're relying on these 8 blastmasters to win you the game?

 

If your opponent is shooting your zombies to clear the way for his CC squads, then shoot his CC squads with your blastmasters as they get closer. Pop their vehicle and make them walk. Then make them pay for walking.

 

Or, in a Tommy Lee Jones voice, "Be a-gile, mo-bile, hos-tile, and lee-thile."

[Fibonacci]

I don't get the zombies in a 'pure Slaanech" lits. I say pure Slaanesh because that is where the topic was started.

 

The cost of Typhus and cultiest just to make some zombie squads would be better spent on a couple of units of daemonettes as allies. And a basic Harald for HQ and a Soul Grinder for the ranged support to round out the alied detachment. If you take The Masque and a unit of Seekers you could just eat the Grey Hunters on you way across the board.

[AekoldHelbrass]

If your opponent is shooting your zombies to clear the way for his CC squads, then shoot his CC squads with your blastmasters as they get closer. Pop their vehicle and make them walk. Then make them pay for walking.

Well, yes, that's the idea. And it worked for now, but I'm afraid that it was one-time only trick and I'll be getting hits from Defiler next game. That's why I asked for peoples experience with Heavy Conversion Beamer and as the cost is quite similar between Contemptor with HCB and Defiler - for your suggestions whom should I take.

 

I don't get the zombies in a 'pure Slaanech" lits. I say pure Slaanesh because that is where the topic was started.

I'm still converting my cultists for MoS army, but they are so extremely unreliable with their low Ld...

The cost of Typhus and cultiest just to make some zombie squads would be better spent on a couple of units of daemonettes as allies. And a basic Harald for HQ and a Soul Grinder for the ranged support to round out the alied detachment. If you take The Masque and a unit of Seekers you could just eat the Grey Hunters on you way across the board.

Not just great hunters, I mean basically any CC oriented units, including Land Raider with terminators. But yes, Daemonettes and KoS will be great defence against terminators...

[Capt_Darius]

Wait... so you're asking for help with a strategy that... worked exactly like it was supposed to?

 

Wait until it stops working before figuring out how to fix it. Right now, it's working just fine. He may not ever figure it out.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Wait... so you're asking for help with a strategy that... worked exactly like it was supposed to?

Wait until it stops working before figuring out how to fix it. Right now, it's working just fine. He may not ever figure it out.

It's "they" and one of them already said that Defiler would make it much harder for me

Looks like I will be the first one in Chaos branch to test Heavy Conversion Beamers. Just wait till next weekend!

[daveNYC]

Wouldn't the answer to both Long Fangs or the Defiler be the Baledrakes?  Baleflamer for one and vector strike for the other.

Loading up a contemptor dread with a HCV strikes me as expensive, both points and cashwise.  Especially since you seem to have the tools to deal with the issue already on the table (subject to reserve rolls).

[AekoldHelbrass]

Especially since you seem to have the tools to deal with the issue already on the table (subject to reserve rolls).

Yea, with my luck they are arriving mostly on turn 4. By that time Defiler would have slaughtered most of my noises.