Tau allies for C:SM...

[tomsev]

so what i would like is your thoughts on this, as im looking to make a small tau contingent for my space marines... any thoughts???

[Messor]

Well, that'll be a fact of life for me. Mostly just for fun's sake, but Tau arms covering marine assaults was dandy when Allies came out. 'S just gotten better.

[Stickeh]

A commander with vectored retro thrusters and puretide engram neurochip looks like it would add a lot to a unit of termies, and depending on loadout can add quite a lot of ranged punch, particularly as target lock will allow him to split fire from the unit so no firepower will be wasted. I'm probably gonna end up with a TDA libby, tooled out commander and a unit of shooty termies and see how it fares.

 

Troops wise I was thinking a cheap unit of fire warriors, maybe bonded to round up as a 'tau tax'. Leaves a lot of points spare for broadsides, crisis suits, stealth suits or a riptide.

 

Alternatively take a fireblade and a big(ish) unit of fire warriors on an ADL for split fire BS5 quad gun, a decent amount of pulse rifle shots and objective camping for less than a fully kitted out tac squad. Doesn't really use the battle brother status as well but gives an extra scoring unit, a bit of AA and leaves a lot of points free for toys.

[Armfelt]

What I think? I think it is time to declare Excommunicate Traitoris!
Otherwise, I think that Tau could do very well to support marines with more ranged firepower.

[DarkGuard]

From what I hear Broadsides would be good as I believe they contribute AA. Plus, they're Broadsides!

 

Fire Warrior unit or two, they're not bad at all. And possibly take advantage of some Crisis Suits and a Shas'O, points permitting. If the points don't permit, then you have the Fire Warrior Commander chap to use instead.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My first impression is that unless you're doing a Crisis suit bomb with Farsight (via deep strike) or Shadowsun (via Infiltrate), our best bet is to take a simple Cadre Fireblade (DG's "Fire Warrior Commander chap").  He's cheap, he adds an extra shot to your required Fire Warrior squad, and pick up a couple of drones for him if you really feel the need.  The prime benefit of keeping it cheap is to keep enough points free to afford that big Riptide and some Broadsides with the Interceptor & Skyfire system upgrades.

[Brother Casman]

@ Deus Ex - pretty sure only the Riptide can take both the Interceptor and Skyfire support systems. I believe the Broadsides can only get one or the other.

 

Other than that, I would recommend pretty much the same thing you did:

Cadre Fireblade

Firewarriors with upgrades to taste

Riptide

Broadsides

 

"Pretty flyer you got there. Be a shame if anything happened to it..."

[pyroknight]

For clarity, 

Broadsides can only take 1 support system. This could give them either interceptor or skyfire, but not both. 

 

Riptides can take 2 support systems and could have both. 

 

Its also worth nothing that the skyfire upgrade is not cheap, and broadsides are only BS 3 (but twinlinked). It might be worth considering a skyray instead. 

 

Skyray comes with skyfire, and is cheaper than 2 skyfire broadsides. Its markerlights can also fire BS 5 seeker missiles.  Seeker missiles and rail rifles are both S8. While a pair of broadsides is a bit better, the skyray is a little cheaper. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Correct on the Broadsides, I was making a blanket statement encompassing them and the Riptide.  You make an excellent point about the Skyray, but also remember that markerlight BS bonuses can improve the BS1 on snap shots.  In our Fireblade Warrior squad, you have two markerlights and up to four more from drones, combined with the Split Fire ability from the Fireblade.  Those markerlights can help make up for the BS3 of the Broadsides and the Riptide.  Now they can be used to mark for the Skyray too, but I think you get more value out of the +1 BS and Ignores Cover then you do out of the Seekers. 

[Ravenfeld]

At first I thought to myself "Why would my loyalist marines, the most feared and badass beings in the galaxy, need the help of some back water xenos who should rightfully be purged from existance?" then I thought "Lazorz, thats why."

 

From a thematic stand point my Iron Hands would never, ever, ever, ever, be seen being aided by Tau. Which is why I will never do it. However, I do want to do some Blood Ravens and I feel that they would be more likely to make use of the Xenos as allies. (Why the hell are they battle brothers? Didn't we try to destroy their empire?).

 

I've always wanted to do a small tau force, mainly because I really like the colour scheme I have in mind (digital camo with grey, black, and purple.) and this would be an excellent excuse to do just that.

 

I need to give that new Dex a gander.

[pyroknight]

As a reminder, Broadsides can take heavy missiles for 4x S7 AP4 shots (instead of 1x S8 AP1 twinlink shot) and can take a seeker missile too. Seeker missiles can be fired manually now, and it will gain skyfire from the broadside (who can shoot two weapons). 

 

So I agree, your best bet is 

Fireblade

Firewarriors

Riptide with skyfire

Broadsides with skyfire

 

Under this model, fire warriors can fling 2-6 markerlights at a flyer, and since they have splitfire they only lose 2-3 pulse shots per model who is marking (the rest of them will shoot normally at their target). Since they don’t have skyfire, they needs snap shots. However I would consider it worth it to have a BS 4 Rip/broadside to shoot down a flyer.  Even if you miss with the markerlights, you have a BS3 riptide and BS3 twinlinked broadside. 

 

For a moment however, let’s play devil’s advocate. The Skyray is the only ground unit in the game that comes with skyfire by default. 

Its BS4 and has got 4x S5 twinlinked smart missiles, 2 networked markerlights, and 6 S8 seeker missiles. 

Its also 55 points cheaper than 2 skyfire broadsides. And You save another 15 points by not taking markerlights for firewarriors. 

 

Now they great weakness of the Skyray is its sheer number of weapons (and its limited ammunition). So if you plan to shoot down a flyer, you really can’t move. But the skyray has 2x BS 4 markerlights that it can put onto a flyer.  Odds are that you will get one, and sometimes two hits. And there is a lot you can do with 2 markerlights. 

 

Options:

Make the Skyray BS5 and unload with the skyray for 4x S5 twinlink missiles and up to 6x S8 missiles

Unload with a BS4 skyray and then make the riptide BS4-5 skyfire or BS2-3 snapshot

Unload with a BS4 skyray and then make the firewarriors BS2-3 snapshot (51x S5 shots will not feel good to a AV11 vehicle)

A combination of the above with 2 markerlights

or for 2, make any one unit ignore the vehicles coversave

 

Against AV12 flyers, I would probably rely on the broadsides, but against massed AV 10 or AV 11 vehicles, a skyray can help turn your non-skyfire units into a threat to flyers. It’s not the prettiest tactic, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, it's sort of 6 of one and half dozen of another.  Both are good ideas, I think; they both contribute AA and anti-armor.  The Broadsides take more fire to make go away, whereas the Skyray can't be hurt by small arms or locked in assault.  Advantages to both!

[MagicMan]

Looks like the Tau will certainly be trimming some wings, which is good to hear, imo. 

 

Fliers piss me off.. Hah. Lets hope Sphess Mehreens get some Anti-Flier goodness.

[tomsev]

its actually looking like they could even take on cron air and win...

[Agent Purple]

My thoughts:

 

I've been a fan of tau-marine synergy for a long time, ever since 6th ally mechanics dropped. Here's what I've been thinking about lately:

 

1) Commander - commander is a great buff character (probably even better
than runepriest). He has access to a lot of special rules that transfer
over to the unit he joins. Another point to note is that the tau
'relic' items (signature systems) are not limited to 1 per model (only 1
per army).

Commander with puretide engram and command &
control node is only 115 points. If he joins a unit of devastators, he
gives them tank/monster hunter, night vision, and twin-linked (4x las
devastator unit becomes a pretty brutal armour counter). For 5 points
you can give him vectors and get the ability to put him in an assault
blocker unit for hit&run. You could buy him the ignores cover
ability system too, but then he starts to get expensive, although this
might be worth it if you want to really, really kill that flyer dead
(evade won't save them).

2)
Riptide - Riptide is unique in that it offers heavy support level fire
power (s8 AP2 72" large blast) in the elite slot. Riptide with
interceptor can also help deal with deep striking units (that blast is
punishing if it hits a clumped up squad) or units held in reserve to try
and roll-on late game and camp an objective.

3) Kroot - Kroot
offer a dirt cheap scoring unit (60 points base). They also make the net
cost of allying in tau stuff that you want (and you already want the
commander) almost negligible. Kroot are useful as an objective camper
(that get 2+ cover going to ground in forests), or in a larger squad for
standard blob board denial/tarpitting (remember to put a marine
character in there to get ATSKNF, maybe a dome librarian to get a 40
model blob with 5++....), or in a blob + snipers as a counter for
monstrous creatures (remember you can use engram commander to get them
re-roll to wound on MCs). They also infiltrate / outflank and are a
cheap way of getting line breaker. Kroot are just extremely useful
overall, especially in marine armies that tend towards expensive units.
You can also take 3 kroot oxen to get some mid-long range S7 fire at a
reasonable price, and no longer have to forfeit infiltrate to do it. An
added plus is that you can buy a kroot-hound for 5 points to get acute
senses (re-roll outflank), which is almost a no brainer.

4)
Broadsides - broadsides offer a very hard AA counter with velocity
tracker. High yield missile pods are essentially a 36" quad gun. Again,
you can put your engram commander here to score tank hunters, if you
need to put down flyers. With tank hunters, the S8 AP1 rail gun is also
pretty good at 1-shotting flyers. Twin plasma rifle upgrade cost also
went down - so they are an easy in for low AP firepower if your army
already lacks this. They also offer mass S7 shooting which is something
that is otherwise hard to get in the marine dex, outside of rifleman
dreads.


5) Shadowsun - although shadowsun is a tool and I
think almost everyone agrees that commander Broshovah is way cooler,
shadow sun does bring some interesting things to the table for marine
allies. At 155 with the command link drone (which gives one friendly
unit nearby re-roll 1's to hit, which is almost as good as prescience on
marines), she is an independent character with infiltrate, nightvision,
stealth, and shrouding (which all transfer to the unit she joins). This
means you could infiltrate up 10 sternguard with a 4+ cover save (in
the open) and baking combi-plasma's that re-roll 1's to hit. Also brutal
with terminat

[L30n1d4s]

I was also thinking of Shadowsun, but in this case I was looking at her with a unit of Space Marine Bikers:

 

-Shadowsun with 2 Shield Drones, Command Drone

-SM Captain with AA, SS, TH, SMB

-10 SM Bikers with 2PGs, MM Attack Bike, plus PP and PW on the Sergeant.

 

*Shadowsun gives everyone Stealth/Shrouded, so all they have to do is move 1" each turn to get a Jink save and the entire unit gets a 2+ cover save. Shadowsun's Drones and the Captain's SS give several 3++ saves, just in case the enemy ignores cover (i.e. Collossus Mortar, Heldrake, etc.). On top of that, the unit is majority T5, so good for shrugging off bolter fire and for avoiding ID on the Captain and Shadowsun.

 

*Shooting wise, the unit has 2 18" melta weapons and one 24" melta weapon, plus 5 Plasma Shots at 12" range. Additionally, the unit can put out 14 (20 if you don't shoot the plasmas) TLed Bolter shots a turn for crowd control. Also, Shadowsun's Command Drone lets her and the entire unit re-roll any one's to hit (perfect for plasma weapons ;) ).

 

*Mobility wise, Shadowsun gives the entire unit Infiltrate/Outflank, if required. Additionally, everyone but her and her drones can move 12" normally... she and her drones can move 6" in the movement phase, then another 2d6" (averaging 7") in the Assault phase, thereby "catching up" to the Bikers and giving them the benefits of Stealth/Shrouded again. This can be problematic for assaulting, but since you probable don't want her in assault any way (and her abilities like Stealth/Shrouded, dual metla guns, etc. don't help in assault), on the turn you are going to try and charge, detach her and have her focus elsewhere while the Bikers + Captain get stuck in.

 

Overall, I think this is a very vesatile unit, with strong survivability, firepower, and mobility and, on top of all that, it is Scoring thanks to the Biker Captain.

 

Now the downside is a good chunk of points put into such a unit, but it is not as crazy as some of the genuine deathstars out there and you should have a significant amount of points left to fill out the rest of your army.

[Dam13n]

Leo - one point, you can only join a unit in the movement phase, so "catching up in the assault phase" won't confer the stealth/shrouded on the unit because they won't be joined. This will limit the units movement if you want to keep them together.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The only way to make that work then is to conga-line the squad as they advance, which of course presents its own issues.

[L30n1d4s]

@Dam13n and Deus -- Good points both. You are right, this does complicate employment of the unit a bit.... what can be done is to use the 6" cohenerency to move most of the Bikers the full 12" while moving one Biker only 10" (i.e. in coherency with the other bikes)... between the length of the bike (say about 2") and another 2" for coherency, you can then have Shadowsun move her 6" and still be in coherency with the whole unit at the end of the Movement phase.... once the Shooting Phase is over, you can then "Thrust Move" Shadowsun and her drones 2D6" forward (still in coherency) so that they are basically caught up with the bikes and ready for movement with them next turn.

 

While a bit complictated, with practice I think this can be done regularly in games, thereby providing all the benefits of Stealth/Shrouded to the Bikers and still not crippling the unit's mobility.

 

As also noted, since Shadowsun can Infiltrate the unit, they can already be within 18" of the enemy (12" if they have something to hide behind and deny enemy LOS) at the start of the game.... that means that they can move 6" in the movement phase and be within 12" (for Rapid Fire and MM half-distance) on turn one.... since Jink applies whether you move 6" or 12", these Bikers don't even need to move more than 6" in order to get their combined 2+ cover save, which is a great benefit.

 

Finally, as touched on earlier, once the Bikers have gotten into the enemy DZ (or whereever they were trying to get), you can always detach Shadowsun (and even the Biker Captain) to go conduct independent missions, actually allowing you to shoot and/or charge up to three separate units if you want to. If that is not tactically appropriate, you can just keep everyone together and hold objectives.... just think, you have a unit with 18 wounds, T5, all of which have at least a 3+ armor save and, if moving even 1", get a 2+ cover save. Since the Bikers are scoring, that is a very difficult unit to shift and they can hold onto an objective quite tenaciously.

[Dam13n]

Coherency is 2" for all infantry types (including bikes and jetpacks) not 6". (I realise what you actually mean - using one bike to lag behind and keep her in coherency - but just clarifying to avoid confusion).

[VoteForPedro]

Owning quite a few models from both Codex Marines and Tau Empire I've been intrigued by this and my initial feeling is....Combat Tactics ftw!

 

The two Codexes definitely fit together quite nicely, Tau can shoot but don't like taking a beating, Marines can take a beating and give some back. I think what makes C:SM the ally of choice compared to all the other Marines codexes is Combat Tactics. We can get up in the opponents face and then fall back if necessary, allowing the Tau to shoot them some more. While Wolves/ BA can dish out more close combat damage the opponent will almost look to get tied up in combat, that way he can't be shot.

 

List thoughts so far have centered around drop pods: drop some Tac squads in their face/ on a flank but close up and rapid fire away. If they come for the Tac Squads use Combat Tactics to dance away, allowing more shooting from a Tau firebase.

 

Generally speaking I've ignored the 'tricksy' combos such as Shadowsun and TH/SS terminators or HQ's trading special rules in favour of a more joined up approach between the armies.