Opinions and Help on Chapter/Company Origin

[Frater Cornelius]

Greeting Battle Brothers,

 

I am well on my way to finally having a chapter/company to call my very own, but I hit a snag. But let me take a step back first and examine the premises. I will not go too ch into detail, just some general Information.

 

I based my chapter/company pretty much on everything I like, qualities, aestetics and so forth. So the look that appealed most to me was a cross between SW and DA. So what I did was, I took the new Dark Vengeance DA models and made them a little more feral, while retaining their noble knightly look and wings I removed some DA iconography and added the occasional trophy, pelt cape, banner and for some I even replayed the regular helmet with SW heads. Once I get some SW models as opposed to bitz, I will do the same with them but the other way around. I the end, I like furr and I like the wings and knightly look, hence I just treat the wings are Ravenwings. Wolf (maybe another beast) and Raven (maybe another bird), sounds legit for now.

 

So, as opposed to Savages or Monastic puritants, they would look like Huntsmen, combining nobility and savagery. After all, they will be hunters, they even got the Wild Hunt (like the one in the Norse Mythology), where the planet would orbit too close to a Nebula/Warp Storm/Anomaly/You name it and would agitate all the beasts and bad things on the Planet. The current Chapter Master/Company Master would call out the Wild Hunt (being the Master of the Wild Hunt) and lead the world on a crusade-ish Hunt against the emerging mostrosities.

(On a quick note: I will be using SW and DA codex to play them, seeing as they will resemble both and most units can be interganged anyway).

 

As for the story, I have written down a significant part down with my own illustrations (world, natives and Company) which are still WIP just as the modeling and painting. An example picture would be a Marine with wings on his helmet and plenty of trophies and furr (feral knight) and having a big bird (akin to a falcon) with a bionic eye resting on his arm standing on a mountain with a great landscape of hills and lowlands stretching forth and maybe a castle way in the back (read: falconeer with power armour).

As for the Marines themselves, I want to base them on Arthurian Knights, Celts and Geats (not so much Scotts though, I don't feel yelling FREEDOM while charging into battle is all that necessary even though it is awesome). Thus the occasional Celtic rune-type-thingy will be added to the armour.

The world itself it rather diverse and most imporantly fantastic (blame the Warp for that). Think Caliban and Nocturne as opposed to Baal Secundus or Lycaeus. Got plenty or plans and images for that.

Got also plenty rituals like the chosing a new leader (read: Chapter Master/Company Master), which I'll mention later or, for example, the final test of Aspirants, which involves some nasty walks to a bad place in the woods and ultimately being about being able to control the Chaos within as well as without (yeah, their Chaos hatered is over 9000.... sorry).

I kind of want them to be the sort of army that sings songs of heroes while riding into battle to stirr the fire in ones heart, got even a few songs, inspired by Power and Viking Metal which I so love, and after the battle, as opposed to celebrating the victory, they instead have a feast with plenty of songs to honour the fallen heroes.

 

Now I have been writing a lot but the thing is, I got plenty of material to start going, but here is the issue:

 

Origin.

 

This is my biggest problem so far and the only solution I have come up with looks as followed:

It is a SW lost company. Have a read of a rather vague beginning I came up with, which is obviously still subject to change and scrutiny.

 

There were two brother. The older was a very extoverted and energetic character, quick to act and quick to anger, which his brother being more the 'power within'. I would name the younger brother something akin to Urus, which is a nordic rune for, to sum it up, strenght through sacrifice.

Blabla, long story short, the older got company master and the younger his second in command.

After big E got roasted and they returned to Fenris all the Wolf Lords and Russ met up and the older brother gave in to his rage and grief and accused Russ of being slow and that is was his fault the Emperor died. He even wanted to assault him but got hold back by two others. Russ was caught of guard by this accusation and did not respond until the Lord stormed out of the Fang. But when he did, he was furious and as a punishment cursed this Lord to walk the Warp for pretty much 2000 years for his actions.

As expected, the younger brother was shacken by his brothers decision to leave Fenris for good, but since he was his brother, he trusted his judgement (which was fortunate for the fate of the company). Before his departure he silenty approached by a Wolf Priest, this very same that was present during his Test of Morkai. All he said to Urus was that 'as long as there is a faithful heart in the company, they will never truely be lost' and handed him a small ornament casket and walked away. (later it turns around that a bit of the 'Cup of Wulfen'-Cocktail was within and the Priest believed in Urus to restore the honour and the Company)

So they leave and as Russ proclaimed, got eaten by the Warp, cruising it for quite some time, only reemerging shorty for a naval battle or something like that bladibla, won't got into detail. During that time, the older brother got more and more aggressive, even going as far as attacking and finally comandeering a single fessel of Dark Angels without warning (he himself had more ships since this was the HH,a dn everythign was bigger). At long last they finally reemerged orbiting an unknown planet. The local folks have been fighting centuries against a present chaos force led by a sorcerer who liked to play.

The older brother got enraged and assaulted the Chaos force where the younger brother was more focused on regrouping the resistance to boltest their ranks. Many battled were fought and the bothers decided to cut this insergency to at its head and went to the highest mountain on the planet, which was almost wholly engulfed by warp storms, on the peak was the big boss.

The younger brother arrived too late, since the older brother already began his climb on top (no aircraft could fly savely there).

By the time Urus arrived at the top, the witnessed his brother killin the Sorceror and picking up some convenient Chaos trinket. Urus told him to destroy it but the older brother kept it, finally sealing his fate and giving in to chaos.

The brothers fought but Urus was holding back, believing that he could save his brother, who, by the minute, was turning more and more into a feral beast. Finally, he understood the meaning of the name that was given to him (or something like that) and he would make a sacrifice, not himself, but he would have to kill his beloved brother. He gathered his strenght and struck him down with his sword, which was jokingly called 'Brother's Bane' by the two of them many years ago, fullfulling it's rather prophetic name.

His mind now clear, Urus sturck the sword and the very peak of the mountain and made an oath for him and his company to never rest until their name was restored by the very person they angered, Russ. He would not speak to any of the events that passed, the insult to Russ and killing his brother and being given the helix, he wrote it down into a book that was kept with the company history and was called 'The Untold Chapter'. Every new Company Master would read it and if his mind can take it, he would then climb the very same mountain, which was still ravaged by an eternal storm and thus reliving the grand battle of the brothers. He would then renew the oath at 'Brother's Bane' and becoming the new Wolf Lord (maybe another term will be needed), should be survive, for it success or death, there is not turning back.

Also the last Fenrisian SW will be confined in a Dreadnought and is thus able to keep some of the (good) legends of old alive (think: my Bjorn in Tabletop).

 

Well, that was one of the prototypes and writen down, IF I go with the Wolves. As you can see, this isn't a story that will be in some military, hell, or even history book. It will be the stuff of myths and legends.

 

And here are the problems I am facing:

 

1. If I go with Wolvses, I need to find (and have found) loop-holes as to why they have the Helix and why it works with the population. This is not a very big problem as I have read and gathered plenty of evidence that it COULD work, but naturally numbers will be low due to the mutation and the hard initiation, so they will never be a Chapter, just another lost Company that can maintain their numbers, but not grow. So this is almost a non-issue, and I would ask you to not make this the center of the discussion, please.

 

2. This is the biggest issue I am facing. You all know the Wolves, stubborn and anti-authoritarian. The change they will need to go through from being Berserker Vikings to Arthurian Celts is not a small one. It is more likely that Wolves would force their environment to become like them as opposed to adapting and absorbing.

Theoretically it would work. The wolf does represent killing, ferocity and everythig the SW stand for, but it also represents brotherhood, loyalty, determination, intelligence and the patient hunt. But they again, the SW are infamous for their backwards and almost primitive way, so I odds are against me, that this sort of change will happen.

Now, I COULD go with another Legion and thus altering the backstory a bit, but my issue with them is: they are bland!

I am sorry, if it offends some of you, but in my eyes, no Legion could bring up a story akin to a legend apart from SW, I can't see Fists successor singing songs of heroes or UM to have grand feasts to honour the fallen. And the whole origin-story I written down above? That stuff would not fly with other Primarch and Legions, it is the nature of SW that makes it possible.

So I am pretty much commited to SW, due to my personal prefences and love for nordic/germanic/celtic mythology and the potential to make interesting characters. I am not such a good writer that I can make someone bland as UM anywhere as interesting, and this troubles me. And I like Leman Russ (a bit)^^

 

On a final note, I know that it is my Company/Chapter and I can make anything happen, it's Warhammer after all. But I also like the feeling of contributing something to the universe which means somehow marching in line with it, not defying it to a grand degree.

 

Hope you enjoyed the read and can offer me some opinions.

 

Immersturm

 

 

Throwing in a quick edit for an idea how to handle my issues:

 

Go back to when the first Fenrisian drank from the Cup of Wulfen. Well, his name was Wulfen. When he drank, the Wolf Spirit saw that he was unworthy, due to his secret hatred of Russ, and was transformed into what we know call Wulfen.

 

So, when Urus was given the Helix, the Wolf Spirit was angered. It was also furious, just like Russ, at the older brother and also cursed him to become a beast (in scientific terms: he kept losing control of the Beast within and turning more and more feral until he broke completely on top of the mountain). However, the Spirit saw the good in Urus heart and the strenght of spirit of the new folks they are forced to recruit from and allowed the Company to exist, but a high cost. It cursed the Helix to all who bear it to fall to the Wulfen when they harbour a single thought of resent/doubt against Russ or the Allfather, making all who bear it fight even harder for their sanity (in scientific terms, the Humans may have accepted the Helix, maybe because of mixed genes since the Company Serfs interbred with the locals or whatever, but since the were not wholly Fenrisians the mutation were more dangerous and only the most convicted and resolute individual would take it. This could also explain why they became more patient and hunter-like as opposed to berserkers. They must control the beast within to not become a beast without.).

 

As for the adaptation and looks It could be a change of necessity. They are, more or less, stranded and theres Chaos to fight and all the bad things on the world as well. Naturally armour is going to get damaged. The Manufactorums build there during the Dark Age have long fallen into disuse but the Iron Priests have been able to salvage some of it and are thus capable of repairing their armour (later even manufacture some at a very slow pace). So they are naturally going to use the salvaged armours of the locals to patch up theirs. Also, a new member from the planet could outfit his armour with wings in memory of slaying a winged beast or simply coming from a background of falconeers. This armour is going to be passed down and after a while the looks themselves will have changed and we have knight without and beast within, just the way it should be.

 

Sounds like something to build on, no?

[Ecritter]

Some ideas on other Legions for you to consider.

 

- Dark Angels.  They have a very colorful history and could work well .. but will always have the problem of the Unforgiven.

- White Scars.  May be suitable for a Celtic group (maybe not) 

 

I don't really do alot with Space Wolves, but I know the players here are very specific with their beliefs about the 13th Company as well as the other Wolf decendents.

[Frater Cornelius]

Some ideas on other Legions for you to consider.

 

- Dark Angels.  They have a very colorful history and could work well .. but will always have the problem of the Unforgiven.

- White Scars.  May be suitable for a Celtic group (maybe not) 

 

I don't really do alot with Space Wolves, but I know the players here are very specific with their beliefs about the 13th Company as well as the other Wolf decendents.

 

The thing about DA is that they are all.. well, emo? Well, they never say anything unless they must and no matter what route you take, you will ALWAYS have to hunt Fallen Angels are seek redemption, which I feel is limiting myself. And the fact that they never talk alone is enough for me to not even coming close to thinking about considering them.

White Scars.. maybe. No offense, but I'd rather not mace pseudo-Mongols in my Chapter/Company if it's all the same to you.

 

The only Chapter I could live with at a pinch would be Salamanders, but firstly, I don't now anything about them short of Wikipedia stuff and secondly, I do not really know how to turn it all around to recreate them in the image given above.

 

Strictly speaking, I am not making a SW successor and I wouldn't even consider it, because I know I will not hear the end of it. Funny how 'total freedom' instantly gets cut by some neckbeards going on a rage crusade, destroying peoples creations.

Anyhow, I am more than fine with a Lost Company that can just barely maintain their numbers at first and pretty much all the way, which is why they have been introduced in the first place, for Emperor's sake. There is plenty evidence (and even outright stated in WD) that it can work.

But as I said, I do not want to discuss it here, it has been discussed a million times over and I'd rather not spend 70% of my IA explaining why it is possible. I want to tell a story, not give a science presentation.

[Ecritter]

If you're set on SWs, check this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273065-sons-of-ursolon-a-question-for-you/

 

We came up with some pretty good ideas there for them.

[Frater Cornelius]

If you're set on SWs, check this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273065-sons-of-ursolon-a-question-for-you/

We came up with some pretty good ideas there for them.

I already did beforehand (was a good threat with good ideas), however, I already have a general outline of the story, which I will hopefully outline some day when I get my intro done. Should someone hit me with a nothing short of amazing piece of literature about Salamanders, I might rethink that decision, but this is very unlikely to happen, even though I like forges and fire and their armor bling looks nice as well as the drake skulls everywhere... darn that actually sounds fairly good, but I'll have more trouble turning them into the looks my current miniatures will have soon enough (unless I light every single weapon on fire), which is why I rule them out for now. However, I will most certainly take inspiration from them, as initially planned (because I like green, fire and skulls^^).

But for now I want the Wolves as origin here. It has been given plenty of ways and evidence, that it can work somehow. I am still open to suggestion though, if you have a solid idea and back it up a bit

It's not like I like the Wolves so darn much, they are only a part of the mythological areas that I adore. The main reason why I went for them is the fiery personalities, tendencies to feast and sing and the potential to make interesting character based stories (as I said, I cannot for the life of me make an UM interesting) and a Primarch who can be represented more ways than a brick wall. It's not the Chapter/Legion itself.

Ultimately, I am not asking permission to use a Chapter. All I was asking is for opinions on this little bit of info I have given here and possible suggestions as to why barbaric SW could change aesthetically as opposed to forcing the surrounding to become like them. Once this is solved, I'll pretty much go nuts.

[Agitated Owl]

Immersturm, you're right in that the main problem you've got is that the SW tend toward the berserker stereotype, which is great fun but doesn't mesh well with the Space Marines of the Round Table motif that you're going for.  I would suggest considering the Black Templars as a start.  If you don't have to have psykers, they seem tailor-made for knightly marines.

 

It is true that the Black Templars come off as a bit stuffy, but I think this is more easily explained away than chivalrous Space Wolves.  It's always easy to imagine a group of stalwart space crusaders getting isolated for a while on some warp-addled world and gaining some feral characteristics.  It's harder to imagine culturing a bunch of space vikings.

 

I also understand your love of the Space Wolves from the point of view of heroic myth.  Even their chapter rules give a nod to this by allowing you to take extra HQ choices.  The Black Templars certainly don't go to these extremes but, last I checked, they give you the Leader of the Hunt - I mean Emperor's Champion - as an extra HQ.  Black Templars have already told Guilliman where he can stuff his codex, which suggests that they are institutionally capable of personality.  The vows also help establish a sense of chivalry, and Black Templar neophytes operate very much like ye olde squires.

 

I also think one avenue of creating a custom chapter that combines characteristics is to have it take some lessons from a "foster" chapter after its creation.  For example, you could have your chapter descend from Imperial Fists stock, but have them isolated with a company of Space Wolves early on in their history.  They get the genetic temperament and early training of Black Templars, with the cultural eccentricities of the Space Wolves.

[Frater Cornelius]

Immersturm, you're right in that the main problem you've got is that the SW tend toward the berserker stereotype, which is great fun but doesn't mesh well with the Space Marines of the Round Table motif that you're going for. I would suggest considering the Black Templars as a start. If you don't have to have psykers, they seem tailor-made for knightly marines.

It is true that the Black Templars come off as a bit stuffy, but I think this is more easily explained away than chivalrous Space Wolves. It's always easy to imagine a group of stalwart space crusaders getting isolated for a while on some warp-addled world and gaining some feral characteristics. It's harder to imagine culturing a bunch of space vikings.

I also understand your love of the Space Wolves from the point of view of heroic myth. Even their chapter rules give a nod to this by allowing you to take extra HQ choices. The Black Templars certainly don't go to these extremes but, last I checked, they give you the Leader of the Hunt - I mean Emperor's Champion - as an extra HQ. Black Templars have already told Guilliman where he can stuff his codex, which suggests that they are institutionally capable of personality. The vows also help establish a sense of chivalry, and Black Templar neophytes operate very much like ye olde squires.

I also think one avenue of creating a custom chapter that combines characteristics is to have it take some lessons from a "foster" chapter after its creation. For example, you could have your chapter descend from Imperial Fists stock, but have them isolated with a company of Space Wolves early on in their history. They get the genetic temperament and early training of Black Templars, with the cultural eccentricities of the Space Wolves.

I like very much like your post Owl, you have totally grabbed the correct end of the correct stick

So basically your are saying Imperial Fists (seeing as BT are their successors, and because I want psychers, thanks very much). Hm, it is something to think about, but IF are rather monastic and most of all, stiff, with their Pain Glove and so forth, but they have this unique German touch to them as well as the gothic architecture (Phalanx is the most amazing Space Station ever) and an almost interesting Primarch. That might be working for me. Also the Champion is a nice analogy for the Master of the Wild Hunt, well thought indeed.

As for Knight of the Round, no I do not want to go as far. They are still going to rugged hunters.

Hmm, how to explain... Well for one, google Talos from Skyrim. He has that look I am more or less going for (with Wings and all), or if you watched Beowulf, they also sport this less crazy type, Geats they call 'em. These Wolves will be far from civilized though, they are still going to be people of the wild, it is just their look I want to alter, less their nature. Their Helix does give them perfect prerequisites to be tireless hunters with keen senses. Just less balls-out crazy than their Fenrisian counter parts. Think Woodsmen as opposed to Northmen. Hell, maybe it is because of the people from Fenris that they are crazy, since they are rather blood-thirsty up there. If they mix with lowlanders they might even out a bit. But what I do not want is for them to become just Knights. While I do like looks, I am still more fond of a certain degree of animalism... Hm think of the Lumberjack descendant of Talos in primal but still knightly power armour kicking the everliving feth out of Chaos. Yeah, that's the stuff.

Eyes on the prey, not the horizon

[Malthe]

If you truly find them uninspiring you shouldn't use them, but to me what you describe sounds very much like the White Scars!
Many people have trouble seeing past the bike/fast attack thing, but really their character contains so much more.

Known and reared throughout the Imperium for their highly mobile way of war, the Space Marines of the White Scars are the masters of the lightning strike method of attack, able to tear into their foes and vanish before they can respond. Fierce warriors, bearing the ritual scars of bravery, they fight with all the tribal savagery of their home world and bring swift death to all enemies of the Imperium.

If you want to look into them here is a link to their Index Astartes which, beside suffering from a very long origins section, is really quite good: White Scars

Aesthetically and thematically they fit the bill, and it would be much easier to use them as a predecessor than come up with an explanation for using the Space Wolves.
It sounds like you have plenty of ideas to write up a new chapter and not just a Lost Company (which can be cool too!), so I'd say go for it

[Gripharius]

Personally, I think you are focusing too much on the nature of the gene-seed and not enough on the nurture of the Chapter. Both the Space Wolves and the Dark Angels were very much shaped by their home worlds and the native people' of those home worlds that were the bulk of their recruits, in addition to their Primarchs and their gene-seed legacy.

 

I think it's very difficult to combine the prime, central, overriding themes of two distinct Chapters (the beserker Viking Space Wolves and the knightly Dark Angels) would combine to make wild-huntsman-knight guys.

 

What is much more plausible, to me anyway, is that your Chapter is heavily shaped by the wild-huntsman-knight traditions of their home world and their recruits. This doesn't require blending anything - there's no adding a dash of SW huntsman to a pinch of Dark Angels knightliness, then strain out the SW savagery and stir out the strong-silent-type of the DAs.

 

Look at how hard it is for you to describe them when you try to analyze them to other known stereotypes: they are kind of like Arthurian Celts but they are also kind of like this group with some of that group and they also do this like these guys but they aren't like those guys. Analogy can be great when it works and helps you explain what you are going for, but other times, analogy can be both too broad and too narrow.

 

You don't need to go to all the lengths of explaining what they inherited from who and why they didn't inherit this or that. There is no reason that the Chapter, as it exists today, has to be a reflection of its gene-seed sires at all. Make them who they are, and tell us who they are by explaining it, not analogizing it.

 

Make the origin of their gene-seed vague (not unknown) and just vanilla -- easily imprinted upon. Mke a minor mention of their gene-seed coming from the stable but generic stock of some unnamed successor of the Ultramarines.

 

Play up the ancient wild-huntsman-knightly traditions of the home world. Don't make it a blend of other cultures, make it a unique culture that developed on this particular planet because of who the people are and what the world is like. Establish that these traditions go back centuries, and that they are ingrained into the population from birth, both by what is passed down from generation to generation and because of the realities of the world they live on.

 

Then, make the first Chapter Master, whose original Chapter does not have to be identified, realize that these huntsman traditions are part of the strength of these people, and that he should use these strengths rather than repress them. They don't need to start off day 1 doing their own thing and tossing out the Codex. The Codex can be broadly read, and the Chapter can focus on the tactics and practices in the Codex that aligns with their native traditions.

 

The first Chapter Master of the Chapter will probably not be from your home world, but its likely that the second one will be, and every Chapter Master after that.

 

Gradually, those ingrained traditions in the recruits will come through, and they become more and more a reflection of the home world's unique culture rather than an amalgamation of this trait from here and that one from there.

 

I think it you went about it from that angle, it will give your guys a lot more cohesiveness and make them a lot more plausible.

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks very much Malthe and Griph, that was some solid info and it actually made me see past my SW mania. After all, you are right. It is their world, not their seed that makes the Chapter as it is.
Please let me explain my reasoning behind the SW thought, for it is the one thing that I am not really sure about how exactly to apply it to other Legion original stereotype.

1. I like their traditions of feasting and singing and I wanted to make songs of old heroic myth part of the Chapters identity. They would trumpet them before, during and after the battle. It is convenient aince the SW already do it but it might be not too strange for Scar to adopt it. Harder for more generic types thought.

2. The beards and fiery personality but hey, we already concluded, that it is the locals that can bring it.

3. Character centered story telling. SW have the potential to have many interesring characters to base legends on (legends, not facts). But perhaps I do not find other characters from other legions so engaging because I do not know them? I mean the more I hear about him, the more I start to like Jaghatai Khan. And i quite liked my little narration with the two brothers facing of at the end. Here I am also a little pressed to find a Legion that could potentially pull a similar story to this, but as I said, I might simply be misinformed.
As for the unknown origin, it could fit. Since I want to base everything on rituals, myths and legends of heroes long ago, they might have legends about they origin, a mighty Warrior that stood 10 feet high that will one day return and enlighten them.
The only issue with that is that it is unlikely for a well drilled Astartes to forget his origin. And do not come to me with Blood Ravens, that's their thing, not mine.

But there one more thing I like from the DA. That bit of dark knowledge, known only to select few that speak of a great shame that once happened with only a very unlikely promise of redemption. With SW I had more or less something but now I have to rethink it for the other potential origin.

In the end, I admit that I was using the SW as a free ideas bucket, that has been picked clean already.


Edit: Okay, I just read up as much about Space Mongols as I could find and.. wow, I did not expect them to kick ass, but they also have elements of Cossacks in them which makes them even more awesome and darn unique in the WH40k setting. Their are exactly what I am looking for, but in an Eastern setting. It would take little effort for them to adopt their new homeworld because it is pretty much the same, only western (but still preserving some of their current flair).

They ancestor veneration fits nicely, as does their longing for freedom and hunting culture. The old Mongols also knew how to feast, they did it by putting conquered foes under their banquet and made party on it while the foes dies underneath, awesome and grimdark and a rather nice idea. And they have Stormseers, which satisfies my longing for Njal Stormcaller-type psychers and storm-themed stuff. I do like Jaghatai though, damn loyal yet fierce guy. So, the way one could turn the story is that a little few of those men, that were kidnapped by the DE, the very reason the Khan went chasing after them, managed to break away/free (there Space Marines after all, brutal ones at that) and got to that new world. This also made them righteously rage with manly anger since they sort of failed and even more angry when they find out that Khan got lost. Or maybe some more guys tried to find the Khan and got lost while doing so and got extra righteously angry.
My problem with scars is twofold:

1. They don't like Dreads, since the spirit must go free. But I wish to have at least one Dread in my chapter. Some ancient guy (my Bjorn for SW and Ven Dread for DA on Tabletop). Perhaps the last original Scar volunteered to be encased so that the stories of old cold live on. If so, where did they take the Dread from? Some convenient guy resting on the world? Unlikely. Perhaps I could make 'Throne of Judgement'-type Dreads where some of the older Scars sit and fire from, that would look darn sweet and would fit pretty well imho (like this gentleman http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/250/9/9/white_scars___dreadnought_by_justicar273-d5dwthw.jpg). Both ideas have nice appeals.

Also, do they use Land Raiders?

2. While this will change over time, most guys in the beginning will have these pseudo-Asian names, about which I do not understand a damn, so naming them in the beginning could prove rather challenging for me. Once they settled in the new guys will have more relatable names.

But still, I do not want to discard the idea Griph gave, going a Tabula Rasa way and sending some bland vanilla marines to become not bland and vanilla anymore. My only issue there is that the vague origin would not make an interesting beginning. The way I understand it, I would start in the middle or at the end and only give a small revision as to how it happened, as opposed of telling a tale. Then again, the tale could be about bland UM on their way to becoming knightly lumberjacks, in which case I have no idea how to bring life and drama to the characters, that isn't present already. However, if pulled off, this can become a much more gripping tale, about Marines absorbing this hunting culture and their way of developing an independent spirit and rituals as opposed to their origin. Not sure how though..

 

I hate to admit it, but ultimately I am shifting away from Wolves more to White Scars, but it's still possible to go the Tabula Rasa way.^^

Thoughts?

[Gripharius]

I don't think it has to be either/or. You can use the WS gene-seed and still have your Chapter develop a unique culture. Just because the WS don't like dreads doesn't mean that all their successors have to dislike them, too.

 

Also, the first recruits of your Chapter can be from your homeworld, not from a WS world, so you can name them whatever you want. Even the initial training cadre can be an unnamed WS successor Chapter so they don't have to have Mongol sounding names or whatever.

 

Use the gene-seed to your advantage, don't make it get in your way. It can be a very minor element in the development of who your guys are.

[Frater Cornelius]

You are saying like they arrive and immediately accept the new culture. Any person with strong cultural ties, especially SM and especially especially cutural types with strong believes like WS will do everything to preserve it. For such a mix to occur it would mean one culture dying out but having influenced the other sufficiently. For example the last SW died on the planet and the locals carry on their version of SM Chapter with influences by the Scars.

Personally, this is the only way I see, since even if I go with bland ones like UM, they are far to disciplined to vanilla to take on some animalistic believes or ancestor worship, since they would see it as an insult to Rawbutt Girlymans legacy. More likely they will purge the non-complient and establish their regime. For a merge/influence to happen, it would take similar cultures to begin with, otherwise the stubborn SM won't let it fly.

 

And say, they are using Dread. Where the hell did they get them from. Iron tombs don't just materialize, last time I checked (but they should!).

 

Also, what kind of successor are we talking about. When it is a group that got stranded, they will most certainly try to enforce their believes. A chapter created by the HLoT would most certainly be influenced. I prefer the former one because it seems more natural than some damn bureaucratic scum handing out another batch because xenos are overrunning a sector.

[Ecritter]

If a culture is very deep rooted and strong among the natives it can over ride the SM culture ... over time.  It won't happen over night, but over thousands of years it is possible, remember after thousands of years ... all the marines are from the homeworld and have grown up (at least till early teens) in the culture of the planet.

 

It can go either way, depending on which culture is stronger, even then the new culture will start to show itself slowly at first ... and with each generation of gradual changes become more and more ingrained.  After a couple thousand years, they (most any chapter really) will look and act very little like the chapter that founded them.

 

Just something to consider.

 

Edit:

 

Thats why its easier to take a UM successor and turn them into most anything, cause UMs are really your basic marine.  They have no "Unforgiven" to deal with, no gene flaws to deal with, no real ingrained culture (if you look at current UM successors) to worry about.  They are your every day marine chapter.

 

Edit, Edit:

 

Basically you can drop an UM successor chapter on a world with the culture you want, and after a few thousand years if that ... they'd be exactly what you want.  You can even use the SW Codex ... if you want.  That's the beauty of the UMs, they can be anything you want if you allow them enough time to adapt.

[Frater Cornelius]

Basically you can drop an UM successor chapter on a world with the culture you want, and after a few thousand years if that ... they'd be exactly what you want.  You can even use the SW Codex ... if you want.  That's the beauty of the UMs, they can be anything you want if you allow them enough time to adapt.

 

You, sir, have a point. And a valid one at that. But.. hmm.. how do I put it? I very much dislike UM, going close to hating them. They are so vanilla, it hurts my eyes. I dislike what they were, I dislike what they are. Don't ask why.

Besides, what sort of UM Company did land there for them to lose the Codex in a few generations?

 

Hm you see, I do not buy the complete overwriting of culture. It might work with normal humans but even then they losing culture will not go down without a fight. And the SM's version of putting up a fight is to purge the entire population until they drop the nonsense. The way I see the UM for example is that they would rather die than to drop the Codex.

Adaptation over time could work, since in the end, the Chapter is made by the new recruits, but adaptation of culture and slow evolution is not fun. Noone will tell legends about how the old ways died out, and so songs will be sung about how someday, Dave the Devastator decided it would be thrilling to try a new haircut.

 

*sigh* looks like it's all breaking down. Gotta create boring Chapter that was produced because the HLoT cocaine bucket ran dry and their main storage got overrun by Orks (well no, not really though, I'm sure something will come).

 

Although... how about a Chapter commissioned in one of the early Foundings, that was based on a world, not dissimilar to what I am trying to do. Then either the Ecchlesiarchy or Inquisition turns on them, perhaps they are not as they have imagined it. Dunno, new training regime went bad, mixed some DNA, whatever reason. Hell, maybe the Inquisitor turned to Chaos or something like that. Anyway, they will lose their homeworld and be lost without a purpose and only the knowledge of the Emperor to guide them (they have not been told who their Primarch was, maybe it was planned that way or the responsible people realised early on that it was a failure.. the actual reason is that I do not want to chose one^^). Maybe even a conflicting, dark secret that is hidden with them. Hell, maybe they were wrongly accused and cursed to roam the Warp for quite some time, during which only stories and songs of their now destroyed homeworld could keep them same. Then they arrive on their new world, kick Chaos off it and let the stupid commence. How's that?

Don't know what happens to them, when they return to the Imperium.. Or maybe they don't. Maybe they stay hidden and become an urban legend amonst neighbouring systems, only communicating with like-minded SM to join some assaults. Or the people responsible for the outcast were in fact Chaos and when they return they do some heroic stuff and get redeemed, but that's not funny, they need something conflicting..

[Gripharius]

I still think you are making this more difficult than it needs to be. We're not talking about landing a full Chapter of actual White Scars with decades or even centuries of WS experience. The entire Chapter will be populated by recruits from your particular home world, and if you make their culture strong enough, it will -- over time -- make an impression.

 

The initial training cadre is the biggest hurdle, because those guys will have decades and centuries of service as whatever Chapter they once were.

 

But with some creativity, you can work around that. Have the cadre realize that the huntsman ways of the recruits give them strength and a certain edge that he decides to exploit. Have the First Chapter Master (from the training cadre) actually be a recruit from the home world, recruited by one of the WS successor Chapters. Have the training cadre recalled to its parent Chapter at a time when the Chapter is still relatively "young" and developing its personality.

 

Time is also a big factor. Over the years, close ties between a Chapter and a home world can have a big affect on the Chapter. You don't need to throw in a lot of plot devices like dark secrets or whatever. They can face some sort of adversity, suffer some setbacks, and decide to employ some of their old ways, learned as youths on the hme world, and they end up having great success. Over time, they focus more and more on see things.

[Octavulg]

Four things:

First, you worry too much, Immersturm. Adopting the local culture is inevitable. You go from fur-wearing steppe barbarians to fur-wearing knights. It's not even that much of a stretch.

 

A Space Marine "generation" is what, three or four centuries at an absolute maximum? In a few thousand years, they'll all have local names, they'll have been raised local, and they won't even remember anyone who knew the White Scars. Cultural change isn't that much of a worry. Tactical change would be trickier to explain - what do you want them to fight like?

 

Second, the Codex is more comprehensive than you think. It's got tactics, it's got organization, it's got every damn thing. I blather at length in one of the appendices to the Octaguide.

 

Third, White Scar names are basically Mongol. Work accordingly. Oh! You totally want him to be Ungern Khan (look it up).

 

Fourth, the whole Dread thing is contradicted by the frequent appearance of White Scars Dreadnoughts in army pictures and other sources (the Epic White Scars list, for example, allowed Dreads).

[Frater Cornelius]

First of all, thanks Octavulg for that rather useful guide. It made me see a lot of flaws I had in my thinking (especially the one Griph was banging on about). I tend to start at the beginning and try the parent chapter to imprint on mine, not by starting at the end and let my chapter evolve. I put too much stock into parent chapter heroes and gene-seed, that I completely forgot how irrelevant that really is and that my chapter can very well do the same things once it has established. So yeah, thanks for posting. I am going to rethink a lot.

 

 

A Space Marine "generation" is what, three or four centuries at an absolute maximum? In a few thousand years, they'll all have local names, they'll have been raised local, and they won't even remember anyone who knew the White Scars. Cultural change isn't that much of a worry. Tactical change would be trickier to explain - what do you want them to fight like?

 

Originally, I planned it something like this:

Hunting is an essential part of my population. It is how they survive, how they fight and a sign of nobility at that. Also, given the rather changing and most of all dangerous terrain, pathfinding becomes an essential skill. It is going to be allrounder army that balances shooty and choppy elements (seeing as the hunter-barbarian-knights require both skills to be at their best against what the world throws at them). But still a bit more shooty, because some Chapter Master examined it critically and said 'needs moar dakka!'.

So the doctrine would include things such as:

 

1. Pushing enemies in a certain position, by leaving certain movement routes open while completely shutting off others, making the enemy think, that they are eluding the Marines, only to get trapped (just like a bear climbs a tree to escape the hunt, only ending up trapping himself).

 

2. Another thing would be luring enemies into a position of weakness or into dangerous terrain, where they are easily finished, by pretending to retreat or faking signs of weakness (just a beast would pretend to be hurt, so that they hunter would follow, leading them right into an ambush).

 

3. Using surgical strikes to cripple enemies is also a thing. For example, their idea of a siege is to cut off escape routes, cripple supply lines or other essential things like power, block communications and let them to rot in their own city (without actually attacking it directly) until they are weak enough to be slain while their own losses of men and resources are minimized, even thought it does take longer than a traditional siege (like blocking the hole/cave of a beast for it to starve there and slay it while it is weakened).

 

4. Lastly, an emphasis on deep striking (following the philosophy that the right positioning is half the victory), by employing deep striking units like Dreads/Marines in Drop Pods, teleporting Terminators and Thunderhawk deliveries. Because of this, Thunderhawks are slower but thougher than they usually come (Storms and rather devastating weather anomalies are common on their planet, especially at the place where they train their airborne units, thus forcing the chapter to make their aircraft tougher, if slower, to be able to navigate through areas with bad weather and even intense AA-fire). A potetial philosophy of the airborne Marines: "We ride across the skies, where Thunder rolls and and Lightning flies."

 

If White Scars are to be parent chapter, it can very well be explained with the planet itself. While there are the lowlands, where bikes and fast assault units can do their thing, a lot of terrain are dense forests, ever-changing (and I literally mean changing) rocky mountains, stormy seas and areas where there is no solid ground at all (read: is suspended in air, because of Magic/Warp... I'll think of something). This would render bike units of limited use and thus put an emphasis of alternate positioning methods (read: deep striking) or using the dangerous terrain to their advantage, since a good huntsman must be capable of navigating it. All while retaining mobility.

 

But, seeing as I want to also put an emphasis on honour and nobility, stand-offs and other heroic stuff is inevitable (it's also fun). I mean, they won't have battle cries as such, but rather the leading Chaplain-equivalent or Company Master will give a tune (like an old battle song of old) and everyone sings along. It does encourage a lot when a lot of bearded men bang their shield a sing of glorious battles, while hitting enemy morale.

However, both fighting style do contradict each other somewhat and mixing them would be akin to having ones cake and eat it. Thus, I need to find a way to blend the two elements together while retaining plausibility.

 

As for the Chapter creation itself. The big question is, should I take the WS, why would the HLoT accept this? This planet will most likely be one of the Halo stars (or somewhere, where they are not very prominent and easy to find anyway). Say neighbouring sectors have been subject to Chaos/Xeno attacks and the White Scars found a planet/cluster of planets nearby, that have not been brought under Imperial control and also consider them good recruiting world since they people are dead 'ard. In addition, it would be perfect for a new Chapter to secure that sector and the neighbouring ones, too.

Wouldn't the HLoT instead use UM/IF seed and training cadre? Since it is a feral and isolated area and the UM/IF can be trusted to keep the population the way the Lords imagine it and can be trusted not to deviate much.

WS are known to be savage after all and do not have many successors for that very reason AFAIK.

[Gripharius]

Again, i think you are over complicating it. I don't think you need to worry about the HLoT opinions on WS gene-seed versus UM gene-seed or any of that stuff. Its just not a factor that you need to justify. Use the gene-seed you want and send them where you want, and chalk it up to the whims of the AdMech, the bureaucracy of the Administratum or what have you.

 

The process of creating a Founding is a huge and monumental task that takes centuries from the first preparations until the first Chapter is fully completed. The HLoT don't generally tend to create Chapters to meet specific needs (except perhaps the guardians of the Eye), they create Chapters as they determine overall that the Imperium needs more Astartes. Once the Chapter are nearing completion, or even a few centuries after they are completed, the HLoT might get around to assigning them a homeworld or a specific duty.