Dealing With Tau

[Drunken Angel]

Just going over the comments on the Tau codex and I must congratulate the designer on a good codex.  I think this codex is for the greater good literally.  A lot of things to absorb and consider. 

If one thing is clear already. 

You will see a lot of Tau they have many convenient allies. 

Tau with Eldar battle brothers will most likely outshoot anything out there and reduce flyers to scrap, literally.  I have faced combined GK shooting with Eldar doom and fortune.  I have also faced Tau/Eldar from their old codex.  I know that the Tau will be even stronger than that and even and harder to pin down.

What are the Blood Angel hard counters?

Off the top of my head I can see

Vanguard Veterans anything that cuts down on their shooting has to be good, Vanguard can drop and assault avoiding the markerlight hell that awaits anything going near the Tau on their turn.

Droppods that carry nasty templates and AV13 front armour, same reason.

Getting into assault and negating the key units that buff their shooting appears to be still the tactic we need to look at.

The only problem is they can lay down interlocking fields of fire and bubble wrap so easily.

Any suggestions ?

Vanguard Vets, Droppods, Scouting/outflanking

[Ushtarador]

I'm still reading, it's an awesome codex in my opionion (Tau was my first army so I'm quite excited^^). But I guess we BA have it better than most armies because we're damn fast. VVs with DoA and Fragiosos should be excellent choices, as well as ASM. We are mobile enough to actually get into cc, and it's still like clubbing baby seals once you actually get there :)

 

I also feel that Baals should do great against a lot of things in the Tau army, lots of dakka.

[SamaNagol]

Vanguard Veterans will get eradicated before they get to charge by Interceptor equipped units. And even if they survive, the Overwatch from everything near the target they charge will mean it will be VERY difficult to use them.

 

Mephiston has the mobility, toughness and combat ability to go through most of their units real quickly. It's just a case of getting him through all that Ion and Plasma. From what I have read though, it seems people are moving away from massed Crisis Suits which helps his survivability. And if they take Eldar allies, then Runes of Warding will spoil his day.

 

Tau have VERY good shooting. Better than Grey Knights for certain.

 

Really I would need to see what type of builds we see hit the table because I can't really formulate anything from just looking at weapon profiles and special rules. There's a lot of really painful weaponry and upgrades in this book, but they can't take all of it so...

[ianj253]

I think taking down pathfinders, which are the source of marker-lights,  will be a high priority. I don't think intercepter would be that big of a problem for VV.  Most things taking the upgrade will have a rail rifle. So maybe 2 or 3 vanguard vets die, but then they'll get to charge in. 

 

It'd also be nice to have your raven and VV come in at the same time so it forces them into choosing who they're going to intercept.  Pulling of coordinated assaults will also be important because if a unit supporting fires it loses its own overwatch.  

 

I've also been contemplating vindicators to discourage them from packing together for supporting fire. 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

My off the cuff analysis is that they may end up playing 'defensive' missions better than any army in the game... well perhaps on-par with IG maybe.

 

'Defensive' missions meaning Purge the Alien, Odd-numbered amount of Objectives where they place the extra, or Emperors Will. (ie 5 of the 12 rulebook mission permutations)

 

I'm keenly interested in how they will perform in an Offensive role, otherwise they may have some glaring weaknesses. I think time will tell, it's a tad too early to predict right now.

[Jolemai]

Given all the rumours regarding Overwatch shenanigans, perhaps the best way to mitigate this is with either a Furioso or Furioso Librarian Dreadnought charging in first to absorb all the fire?

 

Either way, as we are (arguably) an Assault-focused Codex this could prove to be a tricky match up.

[Drunken Angel]

Overwatch only happens from one unit, I have used depleted units to absorb overwatch and charged with the CC unit behind them,  It only takes a couple of blood angels to get into their lines to destroy Tau.

 

Dropods with large blasts

Things in the dropods with templates

Vanguards

Vindicators that prevent Tau from clumping and sharing the LD10 bubble.

Multiple dropods with flamers should work well

Having fast vehicles that move up to 24" may be another saving grace

 

With fewer flyers in the meta from Tau shooting we can put more boots on the ground.

Slow armies with strong midrange shooting that like mid board dominance such as GK, SW, certain, codex space marine builds and anything with AV10-11 flyers/skimmers moving its troops (looking at you Necrons) are at a big disadvantage.  We are in a better position than many others being fast its whether we can live long enough to get to their lines.  Preists and army wide FNP got even more important.

With Tau it may come down to offensive vs defensive abilities.  I think all of us are in for a rough ride with Eldar battle bros allied with Tau.  Eldar runes of warding and fortune/doom is very very strong.  I dont know a plan to break that.

Anything that can put heaps of dudes on the board will also threaten Tau, Orks or certain chaos/demon builds spring to mind.

We dont have access to cheap anything unless we ally.  So it comes down to speed and LOS blocking terrain 

[elithren]

Land raiders will help alot. Only 2 tau units can deal with that high of AV (hammerhead and fusion blaster). Everything else will have a hard time glancing it to death with BS3 base. Also, we can deep strike ours so that helps cover more ground if you feel bold enough.

[Brother Maikel]

I think all of us are in for a rough ride with Eldar battle bros allied with Tau.  Eldar runes of warding and fortune/doom is very very strong.  I dont know a plan to break that.

Due to the way it's worded (barring a FAQ) Fortune only works on Eldar units (same for Guide). Doom still applies, and Eldar get Div BRB powers, so Prescience + Misfortune/Perfect Timing are full of potential.

 

Mephiston will still be a house, so long as you can run the AP2 shooting gauntlet. Even with RoW, his attacks are still S6 v T3. He'll need a ride for some mobility, but if he can get within charge range he'll tear up whatever he charges.

 

I'm not so worried about mass interceptor. Aside from commanders, suits can take at most 3 choices from support systems or ranged weapons, and there are a lot of good options (including one that allows for Skyfire). Maybe a handful of scattered models or 1-2 dedicated units with Interceptor per army is my guess.

[I am Legion]

I'm not so worried. After spending the weekend reading the codex cover to cover (and playing them in the past) ive noticed that we are essentially fighting the same codex minus theobvious overwatch change and extra shots with their HQs. Meaning that moving with cover, fnp, and a massed block of units hitting their lines at the same time are still the play of the day. Every single one of our units is a major threat to them. Even if 5 ASM break through to charge, will break and rout them. Keep in mind that they are an expensive elite build army. They have-not power weapons and their one regular CC dedicated unit will be ripped to shredsby our ASM. And who cares about overwatch shots. They hit on 6s and each unit can only be targeted once. Which is all they will get a chance to do the one time when we make contact.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Got hands on the codex, I've held it before but now I have my copy. I'll be able to analyze and memorize much easier now, which makes planning and predicting and metagaming far far easier.

Food for thought: Every Crisis Suit (all sizes) can have the Interceptor rule for 5pts per model. Probably gonna be rather popular. I'm not so sure Vanguard Veterans (or anything that uses Reserves) are gonna work so well here guys. Perhaps I may be pleasantly incorrect, we'll have to wait and see.

I'm not looking forward to 'Support Commanders' where the whole unit they join is Twin-linked and has Ignore Cover either. And yes, that applies to a Battle Brother Allied Unit... (think Devastators, Dark Reapers, or Sternguard)

*Edit* : Ok I see what they did there.

• Stealth Suits and Broadside Suits come with their weapons, and can only pick one Support System (meaning Skyfire OR Interceptor, but not both).
  • I would guess Broadsides will choose Skyfire as their one support system.... eh probably 99% of the time. Although it is 4 times more expensive than Interceptor system.
• Crisis Suits have no intrinsic weapons but have 3 system selections, so they will probably use 2 of them for weapons (meaning simultaneous Skyfire and Interceptor is highly unlikely).
  • I would hazard a prediction that these guys take Interceptor the most, since there are not really any competing choices except the expensive Skyfire. Either that or just taking "3" weapons (1 and 1 twinlinked).
  • Really I think Interceptor wins-- it is competing against Precision Strike, BS2 Overwatch, Split Fire, Full-BS Drones, Fleet+Hit&Run (on an I2 model? lol) or "Outflankers-beacon" and on the far expensive side of things, Skyfire, FnP or 4++.  For a Suit probably firing a Plasmagun and something else, I think Interceptor wins.
• Riptides come with their weapons and also can pick two Support Selections, so I think most commonly we will be seeing both Interceptor and Skyfire on these guys.

So for Blood Angels, I think the highest danger for our Stormravens will be the Skyfire Broadsides. Luckily if the Stormravens are kitted with TLAC/TLMM/HBs, then you can apply the dakka hits first to kill off the drones (all Drones are 4+ saves now, no longer 'Same Save as Unit') then hopefully all that Str8 AP1 will ID pop the Broadside suits themselves.

The Interceptor Skyfire Riptide is also a legitimate concern, except the highest strength non-Blast weapon it can shoot is only Str7 (unless it takes a TL Fusion over the competing TL Plasma or Missiles--- not likely). So not as much a concern for AV12 flyers. However, a single Interceptor Riptide with completely shut down any Vanguard Vet attempts.

 

What IS interesting is that from what I'm looking at, it doesn't seem any units capable of tackling AV13 will be taking Interceptor. Riptide can do it at Str8 Large Blast, but his Str9 Large Blast Ordnance is only available in his own turn. Looks like FragFuriosos may still be good to go.

[Taranis]

I've been contemplating tricks to aid drop pod/deepstrike.

I know its expensive: Ally with necrons and bring the cryptek who can guarantee a turn of night fighting. That could provide a limited cover save on ranges above 12".

Just a thought and I've not done much calculation.

 

I'm not too keen to pollute my BA with xenos but eldar for psyker control or necrons for night fighting while my jumpers approach?

 

I'm more or less abandoning the flyer arms race......

[knife&fork]

 

 

I'm more or less abandoning the flyer arms race......

 

A wise approach considering how expensive ravens are compared to the better flyers. It's not a race you have any chance of winning unless your main detachment is IG or Necrons.

[Midnightmare]

Our brothers in blue have a few neat ideas and some good breakdowns on units over here :-

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273799-how-will-tau-affect-the-ultras/?do=findComment&comment=3344329

[Morticon]

Guys, there's way too much discussion about Tau stuff, and not enough about BA stuff. 

 

While I understand the need for the "know your foe" vibe, this is falling outside of B&C territory.  If you post anything to do with the new Tau dex, be it a general rule summary or unit observation, please make sure you follow that up with how you intend dealing with it from a BA perspective.  

 

We'd appreciate it if you could edit your previous comments too to include the same so we dont have to delete your hard work. 

 

Thanks. 

[SamaNagol]

Yeh so against pure Tau, if you utilise Mephiston and your Assault Marines' movement to avoid as much fire as possible, when you get in they're done. Drop Pod Dreads work beautifully as well. Especially because they stop the high strength shots like HY Missiles targeting the Assault Squads.

 

The real issue is this however; Tau is an army that works off synergy, so saying how you will counter a unit only works in a vacuum. Even more so with Allies.

 

Tau is an army that also makes me miss the 4+ FNP of old.

[The Yncarne]

I hope this meets Morticon's guidelines.

 

How I plan on defeating Tau:

• heavy bolters to remove troops; anything that allows rerolls would likely come in very handy
• AV13 vehicles as rail cannons are not as plentiful as they used to be. I guess GW thinks Tau needed more S7/8 options
• Fear the Darkness may prove useful given Tau LD values. That could help alleviate overwatch concerns or remove force multipliers like drones and pathfinders.
• Continue to rely on mutual support model placement. I'm not saying group up into a small ball, but Tau continue to have few template options in my readings. What they do have also tends to have the Gets Hot rule.
• avoiding overly expensive units like terminators or death company and relying on troops (even scouts may have a role) and superior resiliency to hold objectives

 

What concerns me:

• new suit weapon options, specifically twin linked weapons with a third weapon
• changes to the sniper drones and drone controllers
• Tau as allies

 

Experience will be the best guide.

[ianj253]

Are any of you guys that are running dual raven rethinking it because of Tau?

 

I have  view tau players at my local store and I'm questioning if I should continue to run 2 of them. 

[Captain Death Crunch]

Best way to deal with new Tau (and all those potential Overwatch shots):

- Drop pod Furioso Dreads w/ Frag Cannons and HFs. Burn those fish people.
- Large Blast templates -> Vindicators and Whirlwinds. Force them to spread out their forces if you can. Punish their impudence for having Supporting Fire and bunching together.
- Get in their face as fast as possible. Turbo-boost/flat out your vehicles, use multiple drop pods, etc.
- Force them to make difficult targeting choices. Don't allow them to focus all of their firepower on one or two units/vehicles.
- Mephiston, if not simply for intimidation and for the previous point above. If they shoot at Mephiston, who should be coming at them FAST (jp and run, or inside a fast transport), then your Dreads or Vindicators or MM Attack bikes aren't getting shot as much (if at all).