Chaos Armour post Heresy

[E.G.J.]

As the Heresy unfolds it appears that Mark II-V are what most space marines are wearing, which means that in a post Heresy era most traitor marines should have variants of those marks.

 

So my question is, are most traitor marines wearing the same armour they did 10,000 years earlier?  Looking at the models coming out from FW and GW studios, it seems a bit unclear.  Marks II-IV are certainly not well represented in terms of miniatures produced for the chaos marine range.  Most chaos marines seem to be wearing warp-inspired mark V, but at times these also appear to be mark VII, which technically traitor marines should not have access to.  Any thoughts on this?

 

In that same vein, where do traitor marines acquire new technology?  Where do they acquire materials to make repairs?  I know in Storm of Iron and the Night Lords trilogy the traitors are raiding and looting imperial supplies for both armour and gene-seed, but this doesn't appear to be a feasible strategy to outfit and maintain the entirety of the chaos renegades out there.  Another option is to assume that most chaos space marines are dangerously low on materiel, like Talos et al, but in that case they wouldn't pose as great a threat to the Imperium as they apparently do (or are they fuelled mainly by that demonic good stuff).  

 

What opinions have you? 

[Sgt.Sangha]

Iv actually pondered the question about the armor many times, it never made any sense to me. It makes sense for the chapters that turned traitor after the heresy, they probably took their assets with them when they turned from the Imperium but the original legions that turned just never made sense to me...

[Chronotonic]

in the case of Talos their ship was outfitted for the next generation of night lords themselves....

 

but not to build the armour and ammo needed to fight with the next generation...other legion ships were set up for such an objective...

 

The Soul Drinkers were a fleet like that when they were still loyal one for gene-seed another for training and so on and so forth...

 

would not be to far to think that some of the legions would have done the samething...

 

Iron Warriors would have been the first I would assume followed by the Word Bearers as they are out for the long haul...

[AekoldHelbrass]

Most of bits GW produces do look like modified MK4, with heavily modified helmets. Also poor warbands will salvage armour pieces from their fallen enemies, while rich one probably have forges to produce it themselves. For example Medrengard seems to be able to produce even titans, and some books mentioned that they had to fallback to in-fleet production, including Battle for the Abyss, which looked like they could produce even Dreadnoguhts on board.

 

So basically if you're writing fluff for your warband - only your imagination can limit your options.

[Raven Angel]

MK V armour isn't a specific suit but rather a compilation of parts from various different suits so Chaos Marines could over time continue to incorporate parts from newer armor in the MKV suits.

[Lord Kallozar]

In that same vein, where do traitor marines acquire new technology?  Where do they acquire materials to make repairs? 

 

What opinions have you? 

 

There are plenty of Forgeworlds spread throughout the Eye that are ruled by the Dark Mechanicus, thats where Chaos marines get a lot their new stocks and supplies.

Pillaging from battles is also another common source of goods and material for the followers of the Dark Gods.

[godking]

As the Heresy unfolds it appears that Mark II-V are what most space marines are wearing, which means that in a post Heresy era most traitor marines should have variants of those marks.

 

So my question is, are most traitor marines wearing the same armour they did 10,000 years earlier?  Looking at the models coming out from FW and GW studios, it seems a bit unclear.  Marks II-IV are certainly not well represented in terms of miniatures produced for the chaos marine range.  Most chaos marines seem to be wearing warp-inspired mark V, but at times these also appear to be mark VII, which technically traitor marines should not have access to.  Any thoughts on this?

 

In that same vein, where do traitor marines acquire new technology?  Where do they acquire materials to make repairs?  I know in Storm of Iron and the Night Lords trilogy the traitors are raiding and looting imperial supplies for both armour and gene-seed, but this doesn't appear to be a feasible strategy to outfit and maintain the entirety of the chaos renegades out there.  Another option is to assume that most chaos space marines are dangerously low on materiel, like Talos et al, but in that case they wouldn't pose as great a threat to the Imperium as they apparently do (or are they fuelled mainly by that demonic good stuff).  

 

What opinions have you? 

Some still have their armour from the Heresy era.

 

Some inherit their armour from other dead traitors.

 

Some of it is raided.

 

There are also plenty of Dark Mechanicum members in the warp with the ability to create armour for the right price

 

Well maintained armour can be used almost indefinetly.

[Antarius]

 

As the Heresy unfolds it appears that Mark II-V are what most space marines are wearing, which means that in a post Heresy era most traitor marines should have variants of those marks.

 

So my question is, are most traitor marines wearing the same armour they did 10,000 years earlier?  Looking at the models coming out from FW and GW studios, it seems a bit unclear.  Marks II-IV are certainly not well represented in terms of miniatures produced for the chaos marine range.  Most chaos marines seem to be wearing warp-inspired mark V, but at times these also appear to be mark VII, which technically traitor marines should not have access to.  Any thoughts on this?

 

In that same vein, where do traitor marines acquire new technology?  Where do they acquire materials to make repairs?  I know in Storm of Iron and the Night Lords trilogy the traitors are raiding and looting imperial supplies for both armour and gene-seed, but this doesn't appear to be a feasible strategy to outfit and maintain the entirety of the chaos renegades out there.  Another option is to assume that most chaos space marines are dangerously low on materiel, like Talos et al, but in that case they wouldn't pose as great a threat to the Imperium as they apparently do (or are they fuelled mainly by that demonic good stuff).  

 

What opinions have you? 

Some still have their armour from the Heresy era.

 

Some inherit their armour from other dead traitors.

 

Some of it is raided.

 

There are also plenty of Dark Mechanicum members in the warp with the ability to create armour for the right price

 

Well maintained armour can be used almost indefinetly.

Yup. That's pretty much my take as well.

 

Also, the Dark Mechanicum/Warsmiths/Warpsmiths/Whatevertechdudes in the eye have probably reverse engineered some of the newer armour pieces from captured loyalist equipment/newly turned renegades.

[jeremy1391]

Well the chaos kits encompass many of the older marks of armor warped mark2 is in the chaos marines box with mk5 and a bunch of mk7 plague marines appear to be wearing warped mk3 berzerkers seem to have Sarum, mk2, mk3 and mk5. Raptors have modded mk4 but yes there are a bunch (more than I think they should have) mk7 in their kits but strangely no mk6

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Also bear in mind the warping effect of the Warp; long-term exposure to the Empyrean can physically change their armor as well, shifting its look to fit the will of whatever power desired the change (such as the Zerks' bunny-eared helmets).  So it's possible that the Warp altered the old Mk.II-V armor that most of the Traitors wore to the point where their original patterns are unrecognizable.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

bear in mind the warping effect of the Warp

Words to live by.

[JeffJedi]

Not to mention they can steal or even produce then newer marks as they are raiding.

[Haranin]

If roughly 1/20 of the space marine chapters go rogue, and the rogues don't stick to 1,000 marines, the traitors get a pretty constant stream of newer mark gear.

 

Look at the iron warrior novels- if the traitors can hit a loyalist world that has geneseed reserves, why not power armor? A FW that is dedicated to marine production would be a top target for raiding etc

[godking]

If roughly 1/20 of the space marine chapters go rogue, and the rogues don't stick to 1,000 marines, the traitors get a pretty constant stream of newer mark gear.

 

Look at the iron warrior novels- if the traitors can hit a loyalist world that has geneseed reserves, why not power armor? A FW that is dedicated to marine production would be a top target for raiding etc

The richer Chaos marine warbands dont have to raid for power armor there are plenty of Dark Mechanicum worlds in the warp where power armor can be created for a price.

 

Power armor is much easier to create then geneseed which is almost impossible to maintain much less create without the proper facilities.

[Raulmichile]

If 1/20 of every marine becomes rogue then the Imperium would have been kaput many thousands of years ago.  If 1/20 of Imperial Guard going rogue would be a lot, with marines the name is monstrrous.  Where did you get this proportion?

 

In fact, CSM theme has lots of grey (if not saying serious lacking) areas which have never been treated properly: 

 

The biggest is how to get proper geneseed.  If Chaos degrades EVERYTHING in time, then by this day such delicate organs should be unusable by now.  Geneseed is the milestone of a marine chapter/legion identity.  Knowing that you are an Iron Warrior with the geneseed of an Imperial Fist is simply absurd.  Even between loyalist chapters mixing genessed is frowned upon because 10K years later it has mutated to the point of being so divergent between chapters that "casual" implantig is not an option anymore.  Besides, implantation is a different procedure in every chapter, many times derived from the aforementioned mutation process.  Add then the facilites problem and voila, you have now an impossible to sustain elite force which needs LOTS of resources to sustain at peak efficiency.  Something a rogue warband of 20 guys living in an asteroid with one stolen ship will not have.

 

Then you have recruiting - and don't tell me cloning, slaves and the like is plaussible, imagine the poor quality of warriors warbands should have, the spirit de corps should be null- Adding up the geneseed issue, then what would you get if putting random unstable genetic material in a host horribly mutated by chaos?  After 10K years of countinuous practice I can only guess.

 

 

Now, conceding that there is an explanation for such depleted and genetically unstable forces to exist, I reasonabily find them far from being the OMlAFG threat to the Imperium they say to be (with some exceptions of course).

[Nehekhare]

Chaos isn't degrading - it is mutating, evolving, generating. While loyalist chapters struggle to preserve ever more flawed copies of copies of copies, the warp creates new forms and possibilities.

 

Also, the Fabricator General, Kelbor Hal, joined Horus. Mars mostly joined the rebellion with only a few Magi evacuated by Sigismund. Most of the Shrines of Knowledge were infected with Scrapcode during the War for Mars and destroyed afterwards. What the Adeptus Mechanicus is today is but a shadow of its former glory, scuttling around remnants of the past and thinking of technology in terms of magic and ritual. Innovation and creative though are forbidden. They operate machines that they don't understand and are unable to replicate.

 

not so the dark mechanicum. They were not bound by the limits of the emperor's laws. They were not limited by dogma, superstition and ignorance of the warp's possibilities. Theirs is the knowledge of a bygone age, combined with the comprehension of a creative mind and an immortal sea of souls. 

 

Last but not least, keep im mind that the legions that rebelled were the warmaster's own, first among equals and fitted with the newest equipment available at the time. They bore the brunt of the crusade and outclassed the loyalists in practically every way. When the Raven guard, Iron hands and Salamanders engaged Horuses forces at Istvaan, they did so in outdated armor and with only their (falsely) supposed greater number to rely upon.

 

It is illogical that the Imperium now has better tech than Chaos Space Marines. It violates the basic tenets of their own faith.

[Excessus]

Fleshmetal armour really should have been a buyable upgrade in the CSM codex...along with most other things in the boon list.

Older armour is superior(though in many ways not applicable ingame). The chaos armour in the CSM box is quite a mix of everything. There are chestpieces whose origin can be anything from MkII to MkVII, and some shoulders very much have traces from Mk II/III designs. But then you look at the new chosen. They have clear hints of Mk II/III/IV armour, with an awesome chaos touch ofcourse. For my Alpha Legion I have mixed all marks between Mk II and Mk VII in true "Mk V" fashion. It's the result of battlefield repairs, scavenging, producing new armour...and some innovation from the local hereteks...

Also, remember that not all that fail their armoursave in a game actually die fluffwise. They might be "incapacitated" in some way...and unfortunately for them, CSM can collect geneseed too...though I suspect it would be a very painful process...

[Reasonable Commissar]

Older armour isnt really superior in 40k. MK IV was a lot more advanced than MK II and III. V and VI werent that good but then VII and VIII are more improved again.

[Onisuzume]

Older armour isnt really superior in 40k. MK IV was a lot more advanced than MK II and III. V and VI werent that good but then VII and VIII are more improved again.

One of the rare cases where that's actually true, tbh.

Almost everywhere else, older=better.

[Arachnid99]

I thought MkIV was the peak with MkVIII nearly as good and everything else worse?

[Reasonable Commissar]

MKIV was good and had more advanced tech inside and sensor suites. The lexi has some good info on the differences between the different suits. VII is pretty good and CSM dudes will try to get it and fight over it, VIII is better than VII but isnt much different apart from a bullet lip thing around the neck but isnt widely available.

[Verythrax Draconis]

I would say that everything goes:

 

- some could have keep their original armour;

- some have looted armour;

- several have new armour done in daemonforges and/or DarkMech - I like to consider the current CSM models an example of this;

- several (maybe all above) would have mutated/warped armour due warp exposition - I particulary like how the new models (chosen, raptors) reflect that.