Defeating 6th edition TAU

[adamv6]

Anybody else had a game against the latest and greatest?  I had one on Saturday.  Boy, its and interesting experience now.

 

Firstly, a quick maths exam.

 

A Tau Firewarrior costs 9 points, and you can have 12 in a unit.  It has a S5 AP5 30" rapid fire Pulse Rifle.

 

2 different Tau HQ (~100pts each) units allow any unit with 12" equipped with a "Pulse Weapon" to fire 1 extra shot.

 

Q1:  At charge range, how many shots will 6 full TAU Firewarrior squads be shooting?

 

Q2:  With 2 HQ units carefully positioned to cover all 6 squads, how many shots will 6 TAU Firewarrior squads be shooting?

 

Answer 1:  Yes, 144

 

Answer 2:  Seriously?  Are you having a :cussing laugh?  ~850pts for 216 shots!

 

Now, bear in mind the delightful rule that has crept in, that if you charge a unit of TAU that are within 6" of another unit, both units have the option to overwatch you, and they are a serious threat.

 

So, ways to kill them, mash them, beat them, and make them run away.

 

My first one.  Interceptors.  The shunt move can drop you behind them on T2, removing the HQs that are normally at the back of the squads, reducing the firepower.  You also don't take the crazy firepower on the way in.  Combine the Interceptors with...

 

My second one.  Incinerators.  A single unit of Purifiers with Incinerators levelled 22 Fire warriors in one turn.  Careful planning of where to shoot can seperate the unit from another units by more than 6", allowing you to break the line.  Incinerators + Interceptors = TAU pain.

 

So, has anybody else got any experience on the little fish headed space gimps they want to share?

[IndigoJack]

You're making that sound much more ridiculous than it really is.

 

I'm not entirely sure what unit's you're talking about, but I'm going to a

ssume you mean the fireblade's volley fire ability and an ethereal's storm of fire invocation. The reason I'm confused, is that both of those HQs together cost only 110 pts

 

First, the fireblade's ability, volley fire (extra shot with pulse weapons if stationary), only affects the unit he is in. Second, the ethereal's ability only allows you to fire an additional shot at half range. The basic GKSS has more firepower at range.

 

The key to defeating tau will be the same as it always was. Remove markerlights. Congratulations, you now have the best firepower on the table again. That's an oversimplification of course, and removing markerlights is definitely easier said than done. I really like tau's new book, and I'm excited to play with it and play against it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Shunt/Jump NDKs, remove Tau with Heavy Incinerators.  Punch whatevers left.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Shunt/Jump NDKs, remove Tau with Heavy Incinerators.  Punch whatevers left.

Broadsides laugh at your AP4 templates, and proceed to plasma+railgun your 1-2 DK's down. Seriously, I'm not fielding Heavy Support against Tau. They're scary good at removing 1-2 MC's and vehicles in general. Unless you can Outflank with the DK (for punching the Riptide down before it nukes all your infantry), don't do it. 5+ invul isn't really save. 

[Vash]

Anybody else had a game against the latest and greatest?  I had one on Saturday.  Boy, its and interesting experience now.

 

Firstly, a quick maths exam.

 

A Tau Firewarrior costs 9 points, and you can have 12 in a unit.  It has a S5 AP5 30" rapid fire Pulse Rifle.

 

2 different Tau HQ (~100pts each) units allow any unit with 12" equipped with a "Pulse Weapon" to fire 1 extra shot.

 

Q1:  At charge range, how many shots will 6 full TAU Firewarrior squads be shooting?

 

Q2:  With 2 HQ units carefully positioned to cover all 6 squads, how many shots will 6 TAU Firewarrior squads be shooting?

 

Answer 1:  Yes, 144

 

Answer 2:  Seriously?  Are you having a fooking laugh?  ~850pts for 216 shots!

 

Now, bear in mind the delightful rule that has crept in, that if you charge a unit of TAU that are within 6" of another unit, both units have the option to overwatch you, and they are a serious threat.

 

So, ways to kill them, mash them, beat them, and make them run away.

 

My first one.  Interceptors.  The shunt move can drop you behind them on T2, removing the HQs that are normally at the back of the squads, reducing the firepower.  You also don't take the crazy firepower on the way in.  Combine the Interceptors with...

 

My second one.  Incinerators.  A single unit of Purifiers with Incinerators levelled 22 Fire warriors in one turn.  Careful planning of where to shoot can seperate the unit from another units by more than 6", allowing you to break the line.  Incinerators + Interceptors = TAU pain.

 

So, has anybody else got any experience on the little fish headed space gimps they want to share?

 

Correction...

 

First of all the fire blade HQ are much less than 100 pts... closer to 50 pts each. 

Etherals are similar. 

 

Fire blade adds +1 shot. 

But he only adds it to the unit he joins! Not the whole army.

 

The Etheral adds +1 shot to units with in 12", and the +1 shot is only at half range, this ability cannot be spammed with additnional etherals. 

 

So the maximum shots from 6 FW squads is (1 fire blade and one ethereal): 

- At 30" ---> 84 shots (only the fire blades unit gets an additional shot)

- At 15" ---> 228 shotsn (granted that the etheral is in range of everyone). 

 

But seriously... to get all 72 Fire warriors, or rather all 6 units within 6" of each other... thats really bad placing (meaning pie plates will eat them up) or a really stupid opponent who charges in. 

 

 

 

Broadsides laugh at your AP4 templates, and proceed to plasma+railgun your 1-2 DK's down. Seriously, I'm not fielding Heavy Support against Tau. They're scary good at removing 1-2 MC's and vehicles in general. Unless you can Outflank with the DK (for punching the Riptide down before it nukes all your infantry), don't do it. 5+ invul isn't really save. 

 

Dont outflank vs a Tau player who has interceptor!!! He will blow you to pieces. He can buy this rule for a servo-skull price! The riptides I am fielding is equipped with interceptor. 

 

 

 

 

The key to defeating tau will be the same as it always was. Remove markerlights. Congratulations, you now have the best firepower on the table again. That's an oversimplification of course, and removing markerlights is definitely easier said than done. I really like tau's new book, and I'm excited to play with it and play against it.

Not necessary, there are items granting similar effects to marker lights. 

A support crisis will grant ignore cover rule and re-roll to hit. This can be given to a commander, and he could support Riptides, crisis suits, and other units that need this abilities. And yes, the commander can join the Riptide. The riptide isn't a single model. He can be joined by drones, making him a unit. :)

 

But as you say, catching the marker light units will be hard. Specially with the new marker drones able to be boosted to BS5 with a commander attached. 

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

Shunt/Jump NDKs, remove Tau with Heavy Incinerators.  Punch whatevers left.

Broadsides laugh at your AP4 templates, and proceed to plasma+railgun your 1-2 DK's down. Seriously, I'm not fielding Heavy Support against Tau. They're scary good at removing 1-2 MC's and vehicles in general. Unless you can Outflank with the DK (for punching the Riptide down before it nukes all your infantry), don't do it. 5+ invul isn't really save. 

1s come up.  My Tau have beaten TH/SS terminators in close combat, because 1's come up, and Tau will strike them first.

[ripath]

Remove markerlights

 

 

But what if my grey knights can't play accordian?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Dont outflank vs a Tau player who has interceptor!!! He will blow you to pieces. He can buy this rule for a servo-skull price! The riptides I am fielding is equipped with interceptor. 

Broadsides can't have Interceptor and Skyfire. Riptides and Crisis can though....hmmm, I guess DK's just don't work against Tau :(

 

 

 

 

1s come up.  My Tau have beaten TH/SS terminators in close combat, because 1's come up, and Tau will strike them first.

 

 

Not being sarky, but I genuinely don't know what your point of contention is with my post. Elaborate?

[Gentlemanloser]

You don't Incinerate the Suits!

 

You Incinerate the Fire Warriors, then lol at the Tau's inability to control objectives anymore.

[Vash]

You don't Incinerate the Suits!

 

You Incinerate the Fire Warriors, then lol at the Tau's inability to control objectives anymore.

So you got two Shunting dread knights. I am guessing you are not using interceptors, if you do your tailoring against Tau. And by looking at your latest lists you dont even field dread knights in your as a "standard" there. 

 

So my question is, how will you incinerate them with your standard lists? Deep strike, I dont think so, as Tau will have interceptor. 

Shoot at Tau Fire warriors from your 24", or allied IG/DA (36-48" perhaps on a few weapons)?

Trust me, If the Tau player feels threatened that his FWs will get targeted, he will hide them. He knows his troops are weak. To get them you need to deal with the specialists first. And don't think for a moment we can out shoot tau with pure GK. Attached inquisitor units and perhaps allies will help us boost our shooting. 

 

Tau's inability to control objectives. Have you even met them with the new dex?

Tau have never really been at the top of the food chain in holding objectives. And they are not now either. Their way, or atleast one of them, is to grab them late game. Blow your enemy away and take control when the field is under the Tau's control. 

 

But I do agree, we GK have a great advantage in objective holding. Either super cheap units, or tough as nails terminators for a below standard price tag. 

I don't think we can say, "hey Tau pffffff, your nothing". My three games so far has resulted in 3 wins, losing no FWs squads, and I have only 4 units, two 12 man units, and two 6 man units. And my opponents are not idiots. Trust me, they tried to get the FWs when they could, but it wasnt enough. I won't go into detail, as every game is different and varies from country/region/city. 

Those who tried to take out my FWs, got blown away in the next turn by the fact that much attention was on the FWs. My specialised units had free reign, removing cover, increasing BS, blowing them to pieces. 

Those who tried to go for the specilised units, had to go through 2++ cover crisis suits, Riptides with 3++ save when needed. 

 

In a vacuum it is easy to play this game, always win and always be right. 

 

I am not saying that Tau is the ultimate army who beats all. I am a GK player first (and Sisters of Battle), Tau second. 

All I want to say, dont look down on them and generalise a tactic such as "just take out the Fire warriors" Because the Tau played will know this and prevent it. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

So you got two Shunting dread knights. I am guessing you are not
using interceptors, if you do your tailoring against Tau. And by looking
at your latest lists you dont even field dread knights in your as a
"standard" there.

 

Me?  Why is this about me, or my lists?  I don't face Tau.  Doubt I ever will.  But this is a tactics thread, not a "GL, how do you personally beat the Tau you face?" thread.

 

So my question is, how will you incinerate them with your standard

lists? Deep strike, I dont think so, as Tau will have interceptor.

 

I woudn't DS versus Tau.

 

Trust me, If the Tau player feels threatened that his FWs will get
targeted, he will hide them. He knows his troops are weak. To get them
you need to deal with the specialists first. And don't think for a
moment we can out shoot tau with pure GK. Attached inquisitor units and
perhaps allies will help us boost our shooting.

 

In his 80 point Rhinos?  Not a great deal really...

 

Tau's inability to control objectives. Have you even met them with the new dex?

 

See above.

 

What durable Scoring units does the dex have?  Allies don't count.

 

Tau don't get a single FoC slot change.  Which is a massive drawback.
 

 

I don't think we can say, "hey Tau pffffff, your nothing". My three

games so far has resulted in 3 wins, losing no FWs squads, and I have
only 4 units, two 12 man units, and two 6 man units. And my opponents
are not idiots. Trust me, they tried to get the FWs when they could, but
it wasnt enough. I won't go into detail, as every game is different and
varies from country/region/city.

 

I'm sure Tau will make great allies.  Especially to Marines, who can get the most out of thier Battle Brother status.

 

I'm not really concerned about them as a main army though.

In a vacuum it is easy to play this game, always win and always be right.

 

One of the reasons I roll eyes at the Win/Loss sigs. 

 

GL's 6th GKs; Wins: 800 / Draws: 0 / Losses: 0

 

;)

 

 

I am not saying that Tau is the ultimate army who beats all. I am a GK player first (and Sisters of Battle), Tau second. 
 

All I want to say, dont look down on them and generalise a tactic
such as "just take out the Fire warriors" Because the Tau played will
know this and prevent it.

 

What's the general tactic for facing GK?  Or Marines?

 

When you have an army who's only scoring units are fragile, and the game revolves around scoring units, having a general tactic of just taking out the fragile scoring units is a massive disadvantage.

[Vash]

Yes I will give that the Tau have fragile scoring units.

But as I said, they are not objective holders, they are grabbers in late game. To secure an objective (in my case) I had to soften up or destroy the enemy units enough so I could walk to the objectives and yes... actually hold them. 

 

Tau have very powerful special units, and just going all out on taking out the scoring units will make the Taus opponent end up dead (against a good tau player at least). 

But thats just the Fire Warriors. 

Kroot, whom I personally hate... can be 20 man strong. Not that they have anything I like, bad armour, weaker strength nowdays, shorter range etc etc. 

But they are pretty cheap and some players buy these large units and place the forests or ruins around an objective. 4++ cover save on a 20 man unit is good enough I guess. Against flamers, not so much of course. 

 

I reacted to your reply since you make it sound so "easy" to kill the tau by simply killing the scoring units. Heck thats how you beat any army in 40k if your after objectives.

And Tau can obliterate Terminatator, power armours in an instant with ease. Riptide can shoot a large plasma blast, supported by markerligts it wont scatter and will take away cover saves. 

Crisis suits can ignore cover save without the use of marker lights support. 

 

To truly beat the Tau, take out the supporting units first. Pathfinders, marker drones. 

 

Btw, I can't agree with you more with the signature stats. Who really cares, and who is 100% honest with their results? I seldom find people with less than 66% wins. Where are all the losers?

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally! :)

 

I lost hundreds of games during 4th/5th.  And all the W18/D4/L1.  lol. ;)

 

I don't think Tau are a bad army, per se.  Not like the new Daemons. (:P)  They just weren't given anything.

 

Bar MOAR missiles, and OP Markerlights.

 

They're the same Tau as they've always been, and while they can be totally solid in good hands, just didn't get that bump up to 6th.  (And my original posts are quite tongue in cheek!)

 

They reek of 'ally the Fireblade to your Marines!!!' design, and not of a competent fully fledged army for 6th.

 

Basically, Flyers suck, and Tau have lots of anti flyer options we're all supposed to run out and ally to our exisitng armies.  Bar nids of course, poor nids.  And that's their whole design.

 

Which I find totally unappealing and lame.

 

(I'm also surprised they didn't update the range to a more modern anime feel.  GW would have raked in the orders, and the suits would have sold like hotcakes.  The lack of a 'suitwing' FoC change is also surprisingly bad...  And 80 point fishes...)

[Vash]

Well I can agree on some points here. 

 

Flyers... well they are not really that interesting. But I think almost every flyer is bad in the shadow of the Vendetta. Until the Vendetta is "fixed" with a new dex, I think all flyers will be pretty bad. I know Necrons have a good one, but its AV11. The Helldrake is good of course, but is limited to its range (against Tau it wont do much if the Tau list is well balanced and he has good positions). A normal army can include ADL with AA. Not sure how that works, since I never bother it it... My scoring base is 20 terminators i almost all my GK lists. And they don't really care much for the Helldrake. 

Dark Angels... well you know the story there you self. 

 

Tau Flyers... imo slightly better than DA. Can take on Helldrakes, and necron. But would I include flyers my self. No... not likely. 

 

Daemons... I hate to say it... but I do agree. I don't know if its because I have only faced them with my GK 3 times, or that the codex looks so weak when it comes to the scoring units. Heck they are worse than Tau!

 

Suits as scoring is somethign that would have been a nice upgrade and something players wished for. GW would have made a lot of cash from this as people would spontaniosly buy a lot of suits. 

If it would have been effective... I am not so sure. They are expensive in pts, and needs good amount of terrain to work. 

More suits, yah, that would have been nice. I mean, Tau are developing new systems all the time. So why not reflect that with new suits? Totally agree. But... we do have Forge world. And according to Forge world day, there will be updated rules for the Forge World suits and a new one coming this summer/autumn. 

 

But what I don't agree on is that Tau is the "same" as before. Well of course they are to some extent... but thats what Tau is. They are not transforming into a new race. 

For example, the standard setup from Tau players before was FireKnife (plasma missile pod), now it has with the nex dex shifted to more variations of setups. 

Some wields fire knife, others hellion (plasma/fusion), some go for plasma burst cannon. 

The reason for this is the small changes in weapon stats. Fusion got boosted range, making it more useful on JSJ crisis, burst cannon got an additional shot. 

What is discussing atm in the Tau forum, is how the weapons can be bought. There are no indications that you MUST buy 2 plasmas as twin-linked. Meaning there could be dual wielding plasma rifle suits. 

 

So the suits have gotten  a lot of new options. A large area of tactical use. Much bigger than before. They can be anti air anti transport. They can be shock troops, they can be infiltrators behind enemy lines. The list goes on, and the thing is, it works with the new dex, because most things didnt in the old. 

 

Riptides. A large suit basically. I would say it has a similar role as the suits. It is a unit and not a single monstrous creature, meaning it is able to be joined by ICs. IC's can bring nice buffs and support. 

 

Anyhow... 

I think the Tau dex is up to date. It is along with the other 6th ed dexes that have been relieased. CSM, DA, Daemons. I my self play DA, and my closest friends play the other two and DA. 

And from the games we have had between the new dexes, they are all balanced to each other (with exception for the Daemons...). 

 

Are the Tau better than GK? No... are they worse? Not really. They can give us a hard time now. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Riptides. A large suit basically. I would say it has a similar role as
the suits. It is a unit and not a single monstrous creature, meaning it
is able to be joined by ICs. IC's can bring nice buffs and support.

 

It's not a CC suit, but just another Gun platform.  It's just a larger Braodside.

 

Can you take more than one Riptide in a single FoC?  They would be the first MC 'unit'. ;)

[Vash]

 

Riptides. A large suit basically. I would say it has a similar role as

the suits. It is a unit and not a single monstrous creature, meaning it

is able to be joined by ICs. IC's can bring nice buffs and support.

 

It's not a CC suit, but just another Gun platform.  It's just a larger Braodside.

 

Can you take more than one Riptide in a single FoC?  They would be the first MC 'unit'. ;)

No but drones can be added. They are not wargear. They are treated as squad members in all purposes.

Hehe no it's not a cc suit. Large gun platform yes. Larger broadside. No. Broadsides don't have jet pack rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, I thought Drones would get the Fenrisian Wolf treatment.

 

Another oversite, but nice to know you can add an ICs to it.

[Vash]

As I am doing it. The riptide will occasionally be joined by the commander. He has tank hunter/monster hunter rule. This is mainly against a possible flyer.

I won't be joining the riptide all to often.

 

But I have seen speculations of a very expensive and ineffective IC attachment. Shadowsun joins and she grants stealth and shrouded. Also a 3d6 jet move in the assault phase.

 

I don't think anyone will do this. See no real point to it as her abilities are better used elsewhere.

[Azatoth]

Also Kroot with sniper ammo are not that bad these days.

[Vash]

Also Kroot with sniper ammo are not that bad these days.

Even better. Or worse in our case.

 

Sniper drone team. 9 sniper drones and 1-2 spotters. A etheral within 12".

This unit has of course stealth and the snipers have JSJ.

 

Now what we need to look out for is the 30" rapid fire sniper range these snipers have at BS 5!!!

And from 9 sniper drones it is 27 shots!

Since they are JSJ we won't see them that much.

 

My suggestion to tackling these guys. Stay away or shunt in with dread knight and burn them.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

shunt in with dread knight and burn them

 

:D

 

Sniper Drones over Broadsides though?

[Vash]

 

shunt in with dread knight and burn them

 

:D

 

Sniper Drones over Broadsides though?

I am using dakka broadsides with missile drones. More shots and better range.

Both have their uses.

 

What I would prefer to face as a GK player. Probably the dakka broadsides. No risk of rending

[Aethernitas]

Riptides scare the shizzle out of me... to think that they can comfortably reduce even my termis and palas to bubbling ooze on the turn they deepstrike in or generally hand out 8/2 pie-plates that ignore cover and don't scatter (much) with practically no extra effort (a handful of markerlights). Doesn't help that the Riptide has all the means to just stay out of range of pretty much everything I normally field.

 

Has anybody already faced one or more riptides and survived to tell the tale?

 

Right now with my ACL my "counter tactics" would be:

 

> shunting with a DK and charging the following turn if the DK survives that long - countered by the massive amounts of shots that will rain down on the DK

> deepstriking at least 2 units around the riptide to try and rend him to death with psycannons - countered by multiple units with the interceptor support system

> to fly in a cc squad of some kind to charge him out of the stormraven - countered by one or more units with the skyfire support system like for example dakkasides

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Riptides scare the shizzle out of me... to think that they can comfortably reduce even my termis and palas to bubbling ooze on the turn they deepstrike in or generally hand out 8/2 pie-plates that ignore cover and don't scatter (much) with practically no extra effort (a handful of markerlights). Doesn't help that the Riptide has all the means to just stay out of range of pretty much everything I normally field.

Dude, it will never Derpstrike, it has railgun range on the ion accelerator, henceforth known as BFG. Markerlights you can killl...I'm more concerned (and delighted as a Tau player) by the Shas'O attachment. With MSS+C&C node, he grants re-rolls and Ignore Cover straight up. 

 

 

 

 

shunting with a DK and charging the following turn if the DK survives that long - countered by the massive amounts of shots that will rain down on the DK

Shunting just feeds him to the enemy gunline. They'll plasma/rail/ion him down in moments. DK's are just wasted points against Tau sadly. Too much AP2. 

 

 

 deepstriking at least 2 units around the riptide to try and rend him to death with psycannons - countered by multiple units with the interceptor support system

Pretty much. And you know they'll take Interceptor on the Riptide for sure, he has two hardpoints. S8 AP2 large blast is no joke against bunched up Derpstrike. 

 

 

to fly in a cc squad of some kind to charge him out of the stormraven - countered by one or more units with the skyfire support system like for example dakkasides

Could work. Broadsides can't take Interceptor and Skyfire...if you survive their twin-linked Snap Shot Interceptor, you might be able to deliver the pain. I'd recommend Purifiers with hammers, you can pack more bodies into the transport, they have 3A on the charge, and they can clean up Tau infantry quite handily (free incinerators means no more Kroot, Pathfinders or Fire Warriors). 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm thinking this kinda setup for 2k, against Tau;

 

HQ:

 

Grandmaster w/hammer

(180 points)

 

Inquisitor w/force sword+bolt pistol, 'Prescience'

(55 points)

 

Elites:

 

Flame Knight w/hammer, 4 x Purifiers w/hammers, 4 x Purifiers w/incinerators

(265 points)

 

 

Flame Knight w/sword, 4 x Purifiers w/hammers, 4 x Purifiers w/incinerators

(260 points)

 

Troops:

 

(2) Justicar w/hammer, 9 x Terminators w/hammers

(400 points each)

 

Fast Attack:

 

(2) Storm Raven w/twin multi-melta, twin lascannon, teleport homer

(230 points each)

 

2k on the nose

 

Reserve everything to deny shooting time. Grandmaster and Inquisitor each join a Purifier squad in the Ravens. Give Purifier scoring status via 'TGS'. The plan is to wipe out all the Fire Warriors/Kroot/Allied Troops, then focus down the battlesuits in melee. Ravens hunt tanks or help pop battlesuits if there is still Skyfire left alive. If the Ravens arrive ahead of the Terminators, I can at least bring in the Termies exactly where needed.