Defeating 6th edition TAU

[Aethernitas]

nah it's + 1 BF per marker, no cover per 2 marker and 1 Seeker missile shot per marker

 

no restrictions about how many marker you can use for something per unit

[Vash]

I thought a single unit could only increase BS by 1 Markerlight?  And if you wanted +2 BS, you'd need two Markerlight hits from two seperate units?

Each member has a marker light. Each hit from a member puts a counter on the target.

These counters can be used for increasing BS with +1 for each counter spent. And also spending 2 counters removes cover.

 

So a pathfinder unit that scores, say 5 hits, can support a riptide with no cover rule and increase his BS with +3.

 

So a single unit is enough to support one unit.

The sky ray is a "common" marker unit for marking flyers. As it has sky fire. The skyway has two marker weapons. Thus two counters can be placed if the sky ray hits with both.

The sky ray has the same BS as a space marine.

[Gentlemanloser]

Once you've spent those tokens on say upping a Riptides BS by 3, does that work for any unit shooting at the target, or just that single Riptide?

 

Sorry for the Tau questions! ;)

[Aethernitas]

Once you've spent those tokens on say upping a Riptides BS by 3, does that work for any unit shooting at the target, or just that single Riptide?

 

Only the riptide. If you shoot at said target with firewarriors afterwards you would have to spent additional tokens to up their BS.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks!

[Vash]

The marker lights are basically as in the old dex. 

The major differance is that now pathfinders are cheap. They no longer need the Devilfish, so a starting unit of 4 members costs less than 50 pts. A full unit, 10 members, slightly over 100 pts. 

 

Another difference is that Drone squadrons (fast attack choice) can have marker drones. This means Jump Shoot Jump on a marker unit, increasing its range and survivability. 

Adding a commander to this unit will increase the marker drones to hit on 2+ (ground units). 

 

Tau really only needs to focus on a few units at the time. 

The most threatening unit atm is what they will mark. Remove cover and increase BS. A riptide will usually tear apart a Terminator unit with its Large blast "plasma" (72" range). 

 

To beat the Tau, or atleast weaken their advantage, take out their marker units. As long as they live, we can't expect to have any cover saves. 

[Brother Maikel]

The marker lights are basically as in the old dex.

 

There's another major exception: markerlights can now boost other markerlights.  This means a skyray can tag one of our Ravens with a pair of markerlights, which can be used to boost the BS of a pathfinder unit to 3, which can put on another 5-10 markerlight counters, which can be used to boost multiple non-skyfire units to "normal" bs or higher and/or remove cover saves.

 

They can do the same thing with ground units too. A BS5 commander with two markerdrones can chain into another 7-10 markerlights from a pathfinder unit, which can then chain into 2-3 more units ignoring cover and shooting at BS5 at the target.  In my opinion, Pathfinders are public enemy #1.

[Vash]

 

The marker lights are basically as in the old dex.

 

There's another major exception: markerlights can now boost other markerlights.  This means a skyray can tag one of our Ravens with a pair of markerlights, which can be used to boost the BS of a pathfinder unit to 3, which can put on another 5-10 markerlight counters, which can be used to boost multiple non-skyfire units to "normal" bs or higher and/or remove cover saves.

 

They can do the same thing with ground units too. A BS5 commander with two markerdrones can chain into another 7-10 markerlights from a pathfinder unit, which can then chain into 2-3 more units ignoring cover and shooting at BS5 at the target.  In my opinion, Pathfinders are public enemy #1.

Yes of course :D

Chain marker lights is a hot topic in Tau forums. 

But it is limited to one chain to be effective. Chaining more than that and the marker units loses its purpose. 

The most effective so far is the one you noted. Commander with two marker drones, marking an enemy unit, another marker units uses them to increase their BS and thus making more marker hits. 

 

Then again, a commander might as well join a marker drone squadron, and let them shoot at his BS (as his own drones does), and no need for a chain marker light reaction. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I have field tested pathfinders and marker drones. Against flyers I get around 1-3 hits from each squad (only need around 2 hits). Then my broadsides open fire with their Twin-linked High Yield Missile Pods. This has taken down Helldrakes (which are AV12 as the raven). I don't have skyfire on my broadsides... 24 shots S7 does the job for me. I have 2 Riptides as back up and they have sky fire. 

If the markers don't hit though, you're up the proverbial without a paddle. Heldrakes do horrible things to Fire Warrior lists. Again, you could just take VT on the Broadsides and open up with HRR's (or the missile pods if you prefer). No need for marker support though, although if you do get some tokens on target BS5/Ignore Cover is nasty. As a longtime Tau player, I can tell you, markerlights are not something to base strategy around. They're a very nice bonus. 

 

I have been discussing with him in other topics, where he pretty much says Crisis are nothing in comparison to Fire warriors. I have strong disagreements on that point. They have different purposes. 

...............yeah. Does this guy play Tau?

 

Thing is... I am having a hard time to fully understand how his list performs so well as he writes. I mean... 33 rifle shots apeartly killed 5 terminators... Even if he hit with 33 shots, he would kill 3.6 terminators. And I highly doubt that he did score 33 hits. He has also invested 244 pts in that unit (but the ethereal boosts his other 2 fire warrior units too). 

I think we need a sticky for this, it crops up in so many tactica threads. Anecdotal > other evidence. As you say, some pretty impressive numbers, but it doesn't magically make Fire Warriors amazing or (cough delusional cough) 'better than Crisis'. 

 

And the fact that the opponent couldn't counter his Fish of Fury puzzles me too. Against his list, for obvious reasons, I would target the devilfish with his ethereal. I mean... his 4++ save cant save that fish forever. 

Reloading his ethereal into a new fish would require 2 turns. Unloading the unit inside, and reloading with a new unit/ethereal. 

Well, to be fair, you can pull off some stupid stuff with Devilfish and disruption pods;

 

Step 1: Disembark Fire Warriors, move Devilfish 6" so its not blocking LOS

Step 2: Shoot

Step 3: Flat Out back in front of Fire Warriors, so you block LOS on the enemy turn

Step 4: Jink procs, giving you a 3+ cover save (5+ base, +1 for Flat Out, +1 for Stealth). 

 

AV12 with 3+ cover is pretty durable. Devilfish are still overpriced, but that is one way to increase their longevity. 

 

Vs the Helldrake I have a Riptide wall tactic. To get my suits and vulnerable units to his flame attack he needs to get within 9" of his TL fuision blaster that fires twice. I have two riptides and the both have Interceptor and skyfire (so if he is stupid enough I could get of 4 shots within 9"... but I am guess only 3 shots, and most likely he will stay outside 9" and if he does stay outside 9" he can't shoot at anything that has 3+ save of worse). 

Heldrakes have insane mobility and can fly past your wall. They have 360 degree targeting with the baleflamer, and its a torrent weapon (so it actually has 20" max range on the template, before you include movement). Castling is going to work for a turn or two, but thats a lot of points in non-scoring. I'd just bring Skyfire Broadsides and railgun it out of the sky. 

 

Now, I am wondering... why would GK have a Helldrake?

Yeah, because its actually illegal. 

 

Anyhow, in the games I have faced the Helldrake it has failed both times to take out anything useful. 

 

 

I assume you kill them quickly? Heldrakes are pretty point n click really. 

 

 

To beat the Tau, or atleast weaken their advantage, take out their marker units. As long as they live, we can't expect to have any cover saves. 

 

I disagree. Take out the battlesuits, wipe out their scoring (they don't have much and its very fragile to our shooting). Killing off all the enemy battlesuits, in particular taking out the Riptide and Broadsides, is going to swing the battle for you. The marker support is annoying, but I'd get rid of the stuff killing you rather than the markerlights. I play Tau and I can tell you, battlesuit units are the critical element. Without them, Tau are just worse IG. 

 

 

Then again, a commander might as well join a marker drone squadron, and let them shoot at his BS (as his own drones does), and no need for a chain marker light reaction. 

 

That's usually what people will do. Light up a unit in cover, strip cover from it, then use any remaining tokens to boost BS shooting at it. 7 Marker drones comes in just under 100pts, so its not expensive to set up (most Tau lists will include the Support Shas'O for re-rolls anyway). 

 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Now, I am wondering... why would GK have a Helldrake?

Yeah, because its actually illegal.

 

Nothing to do with GK. ;) I was just discussing;

 

 

I have field tested pathfinders and marker drones. Against flyers I get around 1-3 hits from each squad (only need around 2 hits). Then my broadsides open fire with their Twin-linked High Yield Missile Pods. This has taken down Helldrakes

[Vash]

For a Heldrake to fly pass my list, they have to pass my two riptides. They have interceptor and skyfire. And I have measured so I will be able to have range to the Heldrake if they want to target my Suits or Fire warriors. Of course I can't protect everything, but the heldrake needs its time to shine. 

 

I do agree, that marker lights are not to rely on, as I am a Tau player from the past and never used pathfinders/marker lights due to the mandatory devilfish. 

But I would still say that marker units pose an extremely high threat. They are easier to take out today as they only have 5+ save (perhaps 4++ cover). 

And they are also, if intended as support, rather small. 

Crisis suits are hard to get, or atleast harder. A skilled Tau player will break line of sight or make sure you get the least amount of fire power on them.

 

Anyhow, I am out to try my combined force or Tau and Grey Knights now. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nothing to do with GK. I was just discussing;

Carry on :)

For a Heldrake to fly pass my list, they have to pass my two riptides. They have interceptor and skyfire. And I have measured so I will be able to have range to the Heldrake if they want to target my Suits or Fire warriors. Of course I can't protect everything, but the heldrake needs its time to shine.

And BS3. So, 3 hits at plasma gun profile. It has 3HP, so you have to either glance with every hit. Or, get at least one pen then a 5 for damage. Considering you also can't fire the ion accelerators in your subsequent turn (which is bad, as their blast mode is awesome), and the cost of the two Riptides (the CSM player can field a Heldrake for each one, with change), its not an especially good matchup.

Riptide is much better suited to ground targets. Broadsides do AA far better.

[Vash]

Nothing to do with GK. I was just discussing;

Carry on

>>>

For a Heldrake to fly pass my list, they have to pass my two riptides. They have interceptor and skyfire. And I have measured so I will be able to have range to the Heldrake if they want to target my Suits or Fire warriors. Of course I can't protect everything, but the heldrake needs its time to shine.

And BS3. So, 3 hits at plasma gun profile. It has 3HP, so you have to either glance with every hit. Or, get at least one pen then a 5 for damage. Considering you also can't fire the ion accelerators in your subsequent turn (which is bad, as their blast mode is awesome), and the cost of the two Riptides (the CSM player can field a Heldrake for each one, with change), its not an especially good matchup.

Riptide is much better suited to ground targets. Broadsides do AA far better.

.......... twin-linked fusion blaster my friend........ Nova charge...... shots twice...... As I said, to reach my suits or other vital hard hitting units, you must stop with in the fusion blasters melta range (9").

And if he do survive, well the Helldrake is suppose to hit hard and kill stuff. I will grant him that. He will be stone dead in my shooting phase. Broadsides have done it in 2 out of 5 games now, no skyfire with them. Other 2 game where I have faced flyers Fusion blasters have been dealing with them. There is little space for the flyers to hide or stay out of range if they want to be useful (Helldrake specially).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

.......... twin-linked fusion blaster my friend........ Nova charge...... shots twice...... As I said, to reach my suits or other vital hard hitting units, you must stop with in the fusion blasters melta range (9"). 

The baleflamer is a torrent weapon. So no, he can measure 12" from the mouth, then place it. I agree it requires some finesse on the part of the CSM player, but its possible to do his bombing run and still be out of fusion range. Broadsides don't have any issue being in range, and they fire more shots. 

 

Riptide does have two hardpoints though, so if you really want to, you can always add on Skyfire. I just think he's better employed against ground targets. 

 

And if he do survive, well the Helldrake is suppose to hit hard and kill stuff. I will grant him that. He will be stone dead in my shooting phase. Broadsides have done it in 2 out of 5 games now, no skyfire with them. Other 2 game where I have faced flyers Fusion blasters have been dealing with them. There is little space for the flyers to hide or stay out of range if they want to be useful (Helldrake specially).

Well they do have twin-linked, so on 3 shots you have good odds. 

 

Good work spacing out enemy Flyers. Its something I'm still getting the hang on. Right now, I just zone them out with long-range stuff. 

[BugbugsDaddy]

Sorry, mah 'puter was bein stoopid, and posted up in the wrong area (I may have failed at multitasking by clicking on the wrong window).

[Vash]

 

 

.......... twin-linked fusion blaster my friend........ Nova charge...... shots twice...... As I said, to reach my suits or other vital hard hitting units, you must stop with in the fusion blasters melta range (9"). 

The baleflamer is a torrent weapon. So no, he can measure 12" from the mouth, then place it. I agree it requires some finesse on the part of the CSM player, but its possible to do his bombing run and still be out of fusion range. Broadsides don't have any issue being in range, and they fire more shots. 

 

Riptide does have two hardpoints though, so if you really want to, you can always add on Skyfire. I just think he's better employed against ground targets. 

> 

And if he do survive, well the Helldrake is suppose to hit hard and kill stuff. I will grant him that. He will be stone dead in my shooting phase. Broadsides have done it in 2 out of 5 games now, no skyfire with them. Other 2 game where I have faced flyers Fusion blasters have been dealing with them. There is little space for the flyers to hide or stay out of range if they want to be useful (Helldrake specially).

Well they do have twin-linked, so on 3 shots you have good odds. 

 

Good work spacing out enemy Flyers. Its something I'm still getting the hang on. Right now, I just zone them out with long-range stuff. 

 

Well I know its a torrent weapon. But the fact remains, I keep my important units close by the Riptide, so if the torrent wants to hit them, the Helldrake needs to be pretty darn close. Had a game against a helldrake last sunday, against a very good player. 

He could only reach 4 fire warriors, they died of course... But in return the Helldrake died in my shooting phase. I could have shot at the helldrake with my interceptor+skyfire, but the chances were to slim for me to actually shoot it down. I preferred to have my broadside deal with it, and accept the loss of 4 fire warriors. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Well I know its a torrent weapon. But the fact remains, I keep my important units close by the Riptide, so if the torrent wants to hit them, the Helldrake needs to be pretty darn close. Had a game against a helldrake last sunday, against a very good player. 

He could only reach 4 fire warriors, they died of course... But in return the Helldrake died in my shooting phase. I could have shot at the helldrake with my interceptor+skyfire, but the chances were to slim for me to actually shoot it down. I preferred to have my broadside deal with it, and accept the loss of 4 fire warriors. 

As I said, you're probably way better at it than I am. I just seem to lose so many ground assets to dragons. 

[Azatoth]

Sorry I grabbed the wrong Era Codex!

@Brother Maikel: Double Sorry!

[Brother Maikel]

This is totally incorrect!

 

p.29 Tau Empire 6th Edition, Box about Markerlights.

Markerlight shots do not benefit from the effects of other markerlights

 

Maybe some player overlook this, but ML to boost ML is a no-no!

 

 

Huh? I think you have the wrong codex edition... pg 29 of the new Tau codex is a bunch of fluff about the "March of Conquest". The new hardback has the markerlight description around pg 68 or so, and they removed the text about markerlights not boosting markerlights.

[Vash]

 

 

Well I know its a torrent weapon. But the fact remains, I keep my important units close by the Riptide, so if the torrent wants to hit them, the Helldrake needs to be pretty darn close. Had a game against a helldrake last sunday, against a very good player. 

He could only reach 4 fire warriors, they died of course... But in return the Helldrake died in my shooting phase. I could have shot at the helldrake with my interceptor+skyfire, but the chances were to slim for me to actually shoot it down. I preferred to have my broadside deal with it, and accept the loss of 4 fire warriors. 

As I said, you're probably way better at it than I am. I just seem to lose so many ground assets to dragons. 

Well I have faced the Helldrakes with my Grey Knights to many times I pretty much know how to deploy against them. The Helldrakes are fierce, but the Riptide is more dangerous to us to be honest. About the same points, but the riptide is on the table from start. 

 

To counter the Helldrake, one must use the new rule in 6th edition. Pre-measurements. By measuring every single possible angle, you could minimise the damage it does. Sure, for us Grey Knights it will be a pain as we can't stop it (unless we take ADL) from reach any point it wants. But, we can "sacrifice" one unit so others can take it down. It comes down to knowing what your opponent wants to target with his Helldrake. If you know that, you can "protect" it and make it painful for him to reach them. 

 

Example, if he wants your scoring strike squad at an objective, keep some units close by that will be able to take it down if it gets within range. You will lose most of your strike knights, but in turn you probably will take the drake down. It will make your opponent think if it is really worth it. 

 

With Tau, they have little to fear from the helldrake, First of, they can scare it off with skyfire. This limits the bale flame to flanks, or edges where the skyfire weapon won't reach. 

If he targets crisis suits, well congrats, a unit of 3 suits will probably cause 3 hits, but each suit have 2 wounds. So only one will die. Targetting broadsides... nah 2+ armour. Riptide... not even interesting for him. 

Fire warriors, a good choice, but are pretty often in many numbers and many units. 

 

Best target for the Helldrake would be Shadowsun/Stealth suits. They are 3+ save with a ton of cover save. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Well I have faced the Helldrakes with my Grey Knights to many times I pretty much know how to deploy against them. The Helldrakes are fierce, but the Riptide is more dangerous to us to be honest. About the same points, but the riptide is on the table from start. 

Riptide has AP2 and large blast. However, it is nowhere near as accurate as a dragon, because the blast can still scatter and you get cover saves against it. They're both really annoying for our mid-field infantry army though. 

 

 

To counter the Helldrake, one must use the new rule in 6th edition. Pre-measurements. By measuring every single possible angle, you could minimise the damage it does. Sure, for us Grey Knights it will be a pain as we can't stop it (unless we take ADL) from reach any point it wants. But, we can "sacrifice" one unit so others can take it down. It comes down to knowing what your opponent wants to target with his Helldrake. If you know that, you can "protect" it and make it painful for him to reach them. 

.........you've been able to pre-measure since 5th edition. 4th maybe, I could be wrong, but I'm 100% certain its been the case since 5th. 

ADL does nothing to drakes, beyond the Icarus. 

The problem with sacrificing is that the drake can place the template on anything within 12" and with a variety of angles (so long as the wider end isn't closer than the narrow). He can just shoot stuff behind other targets, and he won't have to worry about cover saves either. Ablative walls are good against ground assaults and units with normal template weapons, but Torrent weapons just ignore a lot of the mechanics of that. 

 

Example, if he wants your scoring strike squad at an objective, keep some units close by that will be able to take it down if it gets within range. You will lose most of your strike knights, but in turn you probably will take the drake down. It will make your opponent think if it is really worth it. 

Most of our AA options have 48" range, if not better, so I shouldn't need to move. I guess you could make a case for 'Prescience' boosted quad psycannon doing a number on it...the problem is that the CSM player has other stuff besides his dragons and they'll be gunning for your support at the same time. 

 

 

With Tau, they have little to fear from the helldrake, First of, they can scare it off with skyfire. This limits the bale flame to flanks, or edges where the skyfire weapon won't reach. 

If he targets crisis suits, well congrats, a unit of 3 suits will probably cause 3 hits, but each suit have 2 wounds. So only one will die. Targetting broadsides... nah 2+ armour. Riptide... not even interesting for him. 

Fire warriors, a good choice, but are pretty often in many numbers and many units. 

Yeah, but that's Tau. They have a shooting answer to pretty much everything. Purchasable Skyfire/Interceptor on their suits is awesome. 

 

Best target for the Helldrake would be Shadowsun/Stealth suits. They are 3+ save with a ton of cover save. 

 

 

 

 

Nah, the CSM player would be more interested in scoring usually (open up Devilfish with Oblits/Havoks, fry the fish that pop out). Although frying Stealth suits is kinda hilarious, and highlights why its such a bad unit choice in the first place. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

.........you've been able to pre-measure since 5th edition. 4th maybe, I could be wrong, but I'm 100% certain its been the case since 5th.

 

Premeasuring was illegal.  At least since 4th. ;)

[Vash]

The riptide wont miss mate.

Your forgetting what Tau is all about. Marker lights. Tau don't usually leave home with out it. Specially with a Riptide. He will remove cover, he will hit by boosting his BS far and beyond normal BS stats. I have with my Riptide taken out 80% of the enemy units in one blast. Terminators run and hide which they don't do against a Helldrake.

So... Baleflame vs Ion Accelerator is the same in my eyes.

Ion accelerator needs marker lights to be effective, but is in the game from turn 1 and has a range of 72" thus can stay safe if needed.

Baleflame needs no marker lights to be good, but isn't in the game from start and has limited range (puts him self within range of potentially dangerous weapons).

 

Stealths suits are not useless. Against 3 armies yes, they are not optimal, but there are other armies than 3+ marines where I play. And in my last game I played against Orks. One stealth unit took out a trukk and lootaz in one turn (target lock fusion blasters). Next turn they took out 12 boys (from the trukk), third turn noobz, forth turn more boys, fifth turn... there was no more targets, all Orks were dead.

 

They also serve a support role for deep striking units for those who use that tactic. Homing beacon that infiltrates is really good. With their +3 cover save rules, they are pretty well protected, coupled with their JSJ rule to break line of sight if needed.

 

No sir, they are not a bad unit choice if placed in an army that uses them correctly.

 

So as a CSM player I would target them if they have a support role or fusion blasters that can take out tanks. Fire warriors... heck taking out say 80% of the unit isnt really optimal for the helldrake imo. There are more of them and since we both agree on this point that Tau can shoot down flyers with ease, the Helldrake needs to make a very good choice on what he shoots at, because he will likely only get one turn with the helldrake.

 

Well I had no idea you could premeasue in 5th edition. I even thought there were items such as targeters that said that these broke the rule of pre measure. Thus with a targeter you were allowed to pre measure to your opponent and such.

Also... I have never in 5th edition premeasure if I could reach with my charge. Could I do that in 5th edition really? Because I think the whole Swedish community has been playing the game wrong then. Because knowing if you can charge from the start of your movement phase would change the whole tactical aspect of the game. No random charge or anything.

 

page referens would be nice too.

[Vash]

I think you have been cheating in 5th edition mate. Page 3 in the 5th edition rule book. look it up, Measuring distances".

[thade]

Yep, pre-measuring is new and was a big deal; it hit WHFB first (8th over there) then us in 40k (in 6th). It's a welcome change...but it is a change. :)