Drop Pod Chapter that use SW but aren't......

[Kodiak599]

Hello all! New to these boards, was refered here by a RL friend and poster on this board CitadelArmyGuy (He trolls on the BA board mainly, see if he notices this post)

I need help in a bad way....fluff wise mainly and maybe some list help. I mainly play GK, but I want a true "shock" army, so I was thinking...why not a 100% drop pod army? I was looking at making a Vanilla list with pods and call it a day....shot the idea across CAG( CitadelArmyGuy) who is a MUCH more experienced player than I am and he said (queue Old El Paso commercial) Por Que no Space Wolves? (why not Space Wolves?) Apparently they are WAAAAAY better at drop pod assaults than any other chapter

Now...my problem. I don't particularly like the fluff of the Wolves. And as I understand it, they don't really have succesor chapters either. My questions are, would it be "against" the fluff to either make a successor chapter, or have a chapter "pre-heresy" that uses the same codex? And would it be tournament legal? My goal with 40k is to have fun, but I would also really like to start playing competetively once I get better.

And now for your perusal my "Emperors Tears" (Name subject to change) Drop Pod list

All squad names will be changed to a more fitting name to go away from the Wolf theme as well

HQ - Rune Priest

Allied HQ - BA Librarian

Elite - Wolf Guard x 4 (combi flamer, 1 Termi w/heavy flamer) Arjac Rockfist

Troop - 6 x Grey Hunter pack x10 (1 Power Axe in each, 8 Plasma, 4 Melta)

Allied Troop - 8x Death Company

Transports - 8x Drop Pod (7 SW, 1 BA)

2k points on the head (don't have all of the equipment available, battlescribe won't pull the list up for some reason)

Setup and Deployment - Watch my oppenent scratch his/her head when I put all of the objectives on their side of the map and set up nice flat terrain around them. Laugh at them when it's my turn to deploy and nothing is on the board.

Rune priest drops in with WG and 2 Grey hunter squads, and Allies turn one. Wrecks shop, Rest come in turn 2 (hopefully) through 4 and just runs through enemy forces like a hot knife through butter.

Any advice, critisism (positive), or comments are welcome. Thanks in advance!

[Wulfebane]

HQ: Yoda

Allied HQ: Chewbacca's mother

Elite: Battle droids x4; Han Solo

Troop: 6x Cloned squads x10

Allied: 8x Jedi younglings

Transports: Fairy dust

 

Claim you're using the SW codex and all bases, model proportions, and proxy weapons match up to the 40k system, and you can do whatever you want. Just know that GW tourneys usually require 75% or so of the model to be comprised of GW product.

[Kodiak599]

Alrighty, just wanted to make sure I wasn't breaking any direct GW rules for tournament play before I spent the cash to buy these models. Any thoughts on the composition?

[hendrik]

you would just use the SW ruleset for normal space marine models. just say it's a different doctorine then the usual codex astartes ;)

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

If it's a strictly WYSIWYG tournie then if they are not Space Wolves then you should not be able use the Space Wolves Codex.

However, away from that sort of environment, whatever you and your friends are happy with should be good

[Wulfebane]

If it's a strictly WYSIWYG tournie then if they are not Space Wolves then you should not be able use the Space Wolves Codex. :wink:

 

However, away from that sort of environment, whatever you and your friends are happy with should be good :yes:

If you take a chaos space marine and give him an axe, then claim he is a WGBL with a frost weapon, it is still by definition WYSIWIG and tournament compliant.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Nope.

 

What You See Is What You Get.

 

If you see a GW produced Chaos Space Marine model, then by strict WYSIWYG, that is what he is.

 

Any army that uses other models with a SW Codex is 'counts as', which is not the same thing.

[Blacksad]

WYSINWIS.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

WYSINWIS.

 

I understand the acronym, but without elaboration, it is not clear what position you are taking in this thread.

[Blacksad]

What You See Is Not What I See. You see a model ment to be used as a Chaos Space Marine, I see potential for a decent Space Wolf model.

[CM_Seth]

I've yet to see a tournament of any variety that disallows counts-as armies, and I've seen everything from Orks running the Imperial Guard codex to mecha Tyranidcrons to Eldar Exodites running the Tyranid codex (think about it, it actually really works when you look at statlines). Kodiak is going to be using power armoured marines, they just won't be literal Space Wolves replete with their expected furs and fangs. They're going to be a DIY chapter, anyway, which is far preferable to, say, green Blood Angels, complete with an Unforgiven Mephiston (which I've also seen).

So no, let's not scare anyone with such absurdly strict WYSIWYG to which I've not seen a single tournie adhere. The Space Wolves codex can easily be used to represent a chapter with a penchant for close-quarters combat and notable capability in melee. So long as both you and your opponent are clear on what everything is, there should be no difficulties, particularly if equipment is all clearly there.

Personally, I think the list sounds boss. Marines are frightening in large numbers, and a horde of Grey Hunters on your doorstep is enough to make even the most stoic gunline have doubts. I'm looking forward to playing against it.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Gamed much is UK then Seth, i.e. is your 'yet to see' statement limited in any way? Personally, when I used to play competitively regularly in GW events in UK, players expected their opponent's army to look like the codex being used. When you are playing a fresh opponent every couple of hours over a couple of days gaming, it's pretty dull having to remember what each model is supposed to represent.

 

As I stated up front, I can see no issue with this as a fun list, but the OP would need to confirm with the tournie organisers as to how strict a version of WYSIWYG they enforce.

 

Here's the GW standard - not the 'fully represent' and proxy rule:

 

 

 

 

Miniatures

• All of your models must be  fully assembled, fully painted, based and  fully represent what is on your army list

(including all equipment).

• Every miniature and component must be produced by Games Workshop (Citadel, Forge World or Warhammer

Forge).

• We know many people like to take the opportunity to convert models for thematic and creative reasons. We actively

encourage this, but do ask that if you are going to do so, please check with the events team first. We may ask you to

make allowances at the event in order to ensure there is no confusion for your opponents.

 

 

 

 

Proxies

• A “proxy miniature” is a model that is standing in for something else and has not been changed in any way.

Examples include using plastic Cadian Shock Troops as Stormtroopers or plastic Tyranid Raveners as Fiends of

Slannesh.

• We  do not allow any proxy miniatures at our events. If Games Workshop produces a model for a unit entry, we

expect you to use the correct model, for the sake of clarity to your opponent. (For conversions, please see the point

above in the ‘Miniatures’ section).

• If you wish to personalize your units and/or convert/kit bash plastic or Citadel Finecast kits to create your own

unique models that fit your vision of your army, please check with the events team first. We may ask you to make

allowances at the event in order to ensure enjoyment of your opponents. Simply gluing a scope to plastic Cadian

Shock Trooper won’t make him a Kasrkin, but adding a gnarly chainsword and an appropriate paintjob to a tactical

marine can easily make him a heretic Chaos Marine Renegade.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

What You See Is Not What I See. You see a model ment to be used as a Chaos Space Marine, I see potential for a decent Space Wolf model.

 

WYSIWYG means we are both highly likely to see the same thing with limited risk of confusion - see the proxy rule above.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

My opinion is that you wont have any issues using SW rules for your army.  My only advice is that you will have a hard time dealing with fliers, which SW dont have an easy time with anyway, and with heavy mech. 4 meltaguns +arjac doesnt provide a whole lot of anti mech which you may see at 2k points. Granted, with that many marines on the board your opponent will have a hard time as it is.

[stinkenheim]

@ durfast spiritwolf.

According to your quoted rules it is entirely permissible within a GW run tournament to paint up a regular tactical marine and run him as a chaos marine-

 

'...won’t make him a Kasrkin, but adding a gnarly chainsword and an appropriate paintjob to a tactical marine can easily make him a heretic Chaos Marine Renegade.'

 

 

As such I don't see why a space marine model painted as any chapter couldn't be used to represent a space wolf. It's be harsh beyond belief for a tournament organiser to allow a vanilla marine to count as chaos but not as another space marine based army.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

 

Edit: for some reason I ended up with my bit twice!

 

 

@ durfast spiritwolf.

According to your quoted rules it is entirely permissible within a GW run tournament to paint up a regular tactical marine and run him as a chaos marine-

 

'...won’t make him a Kasrkin, but adding a gnarly chainsword and an appropriate paintjob to a tactical marine can easily make him a heretic Chaos Marine Renegade.'

 

 

As such I don't see why a space marine model painted as any chapter couldn't be used to represent a space wolf. It's be harsh beyond belief for a tournament organiser to allow a vanilla marine to count as chaos but not as another space marine based army.

 

 

Painted as a renegade, the tactical marine would then use the Chaos SM codex, i.e. it looks like what it is meant to be. The vanilla marine isn't 'counting as' chaos because renegades do not always look chaotic, at least not to start with. But nether could the model be painted as an Ultra or a SW and then use the chaos SM codex, because it does not look like what it is supposed to be. 

 

Moreover, the normal tactical marines could also be painted to look like Space Wolves - indeed many people mix and match SW and vanilla components. A marine painted to look like a Grey Knight or another chapter does not look like a Space Wolf, be it of the original grey or 2nd Edition baby blue variety, nor is it the owners intention that it look like a Space Wolf. So, it cannot use the SW codex at UK GW-run competitions as the rules stand.

 

Having seen some of the nonsenses that used to go on with proxying in tournaments, this avoids the risk of confusion and decreased enjoyment for the other players.

 

Regards,

[Kodiak599]

There will be no confusion as to what unit is what in my force. Every unit will have the appropriate weaponry, so there will never be a question about what a certain model is firing. And unless I am mistaken (don't own the codex, running from memory) then a bolter marine in the SW book is equal to a bolter marine in EVERY other codex. The wolf guard will just have 2 terminators that will still look like Space Marines of some sort, so everything will be WYSIWYG, they just won't like puppies as much as everyone else.

[Grimtooth]

Nope.

 

What You See Is What You Get.

 

If you see a GW produced Chaos Space Marine model, then by strict WYSIWYG, that is what he is.

 

Any army that uses other models with a SW Codex is 'counts as', which is not the same thing.

Got a page number to quote the WYSIWYG "rule"?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Nope.

What You See Is What You Get.

If you see a GW produced Chaos Space Marine model, then by strict WYSIWYG, that is what he is.

Any army that uses other models with a SW Codex is 'counts as', which is not the same thing.

Got a page number to quote the WYSIWYG "rule"?

The question was about use of the SW codex for a vanilla SM army at a tournie not the rules per se.

It's a GW tournament rule, you'll find it on the rules for each event on website under events

An example is this Kill Team Competition:

http://Games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2860630a_40K_Kill_Team_Pack_2013_(6).pdf

Edit: another example is the 2013 Throne of Skulls competition:

http://Games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730448a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_WHWorld_2013.pdf

Edit: links seem to working again - for now at least :)

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

There will be no confusion as to what unit is what in my force. Every unit will have the appropriate weaponry, so there will never be a question about what a certain model is firing. And unless I am mistaken (don't own the codex, running from memory) then a bolter marine in the SW book is equal to a bolter marine in EVERY other codex. The wolf guard will just have 2 terminators that will still look like Space Marines of some sort, so everything will be WYSIWYG, they just won't like puppies as much as everyone else.

Will they be identifiable as Space Wolves? If not, if they look like vanilla marines, then they aren't Space Wolves and you wouldnt be able to use the codex according to GW tournie WYSIWYG. Again, you would need to check with the tournie you have in mind..

 

I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong in this case, just to point out that there might be an issue.

[Wulfebane]

By your definition, everyone who paints up a Wulfen/13Co army isn't a SW army due to the amount of chaos bits they are likely to have. For that matter, anyone with the grey-grey color scheme either, as they're not what it looks like in the codex. This is simply absurd.

[Grimtooth]

 

There will be no confusion as to what unit is what in my force. Every unit will have the appropriate weaponry, so there will never be a question about what a certain model is firing. And unless I am mistaken (don't own the codex, running from memory) then a bolter marine in the SW book is equal to a bolter marine in EVERY other codex. The wolf guard will just have 2 terminators that will still look like Space Marines of some sort, so everything will be WYSIWYG, they just won't like puppies as much as everyone else.

Will they be identifiable as Space Wolves? If not, if they look like vanilla marines, then they aren't Space Wolves and you wouldnt be able to use the codex according to GW tournie WYSIWYG. Again, you would need to check with the tournie you have in mind..

 

I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong in this case, just to point out that there might be an issue.

You keep saying this and you are wrong.

 

If you go back and actually ready the 5th Edition rule for WYSIWYG, it required that purchased wargear was represented on the model.  Nothing at all in the rules then or now ever said that you needed to specifically buy a GW Space Wovles Pack to represent Space Wolves.  I would point to the fact that Goat Boy's entire SW army a couple of years ago was not WYSIWYG according to your fictitious opinion of the rule and that was at Adepticon and accepted completely.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

 

 

 

There will be no confusion as to what unit is what in my force. Every unit will have the appropriate weaponry, so there will never be a question about what a certain model is firing. And unless I am mistaken (don't own the codex, running from memory) then a bolter marine in the SW book is equal to a bolter marine in EVERY other codex. The wolf guard will just have 2 terminators that will still look like Space Marines of some sort, so everything will be WYSIWYG, they just won't like puppies as much as everyone else.

 

Will they be identifiable as Space Wolves? If not, if they look like vanilla marines, then they aren't Space Wolves and you wouldnt be able to use the codex according to GW tournie WYSIWYG. Again, you would need to check with the tournie you have in mind..

I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong in this case, just to point out that there might be an issue.

You keep saying this and you are wrong.

 

If you go back and actually ready the 5th Edition rule for WYSIWYG, it required that purchased wargear was represented on the model.  Nothing at all in the rules then or now ever said that you needed to specifically buy a GW Space Wovles Pack to represent Space Wolves.  I would point to the fact that Goat Boy's entire SW army a couple of years ago was not WYSIWYG according to your fictitious opinion of the rule and that was at Adepticon and accepted completely.

Then I guess you didn't check either of my links before accusing me of making things up. If you'd actually bothered to read them then you would've found that I'm not wrong.

 

It is very clearly stated in both, that for those two GW run tournaments what the rule is on models and proxies. I have not stated what is in the rule book or that this rule is applied in all tournies. So your examples are irrelevant.

 

The point is that the OP needs to check because in some tournies, such as GW ones in UK, the proposed vanilla army could not be run with a SW codex.

 

I await your response with interest ;)

[Grimtooth]

There will be no confusion as to what unit is what in my force. Every unit will have the appropriate weaponry, so there will never be a question about what a certain model is firing. And unless I am mistaken (don't own the codex, running from memory) then a bolter marine in the SW book is equal to a bolter marine in EVERY other codex. The wolf guard will just have 2 terminators that will still look like Space Marines of some sort, so everything will be WYSIWYG, they just won't like puppies as much as everyone else.

Will they be identifiable as Space Wolves? If not, if they look like vanilla marines, then they aren't Space Wolves and you wouldnt be able to use the codex according to GW tournie WYSIWYG. Again, you would need to check with the tournie you have in mind..

I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong in this case, just to point out that there might be an issue.

You keep saying this and you are wrong.

If you go back and actually ready the 5th Edition rule for WYSIWYG, it required that purchased wargear was represented on the model. Nothing at all in the rules then or now ever said that you needed to specifically buy a GW Space Wovles Pack to represent Space Wolves. I would point to the fact that Goat Boy's entire SW army a couple of years ago was not WYSIWYG according to your fictitious opinion of the rule and that was at Adepticon and accepted completely.

Then I guess you didn't check either of my links before accusing me of making things up. If you'd actually bothered to read them then you would've found that I'm not wrong.

It is very clearly stated in both, that for those two GW run tournaments what the rule is on models and proxies. I have not stated what is in the rule book or that this rule is applied in all tournies. So your examples are irrelevant.

The point is that the OP needs to check because in some tournies, such as GW ones in UK, the proposed vanilla army could not be run with a SW codex.

I await your response with interest

Neither one of your links are working.

And there is a difference between proxying,

"This Space Marine with a missile launcher is actually equipped with a lascannon."

and playing counts-as,

"These Space Marines with missile launchers are Long Fangs with missile launchers."

Going back and actually fising your links here is the relevant entry from Kill Team;

Miniatures

• All of your models must be fully assembled, fully painted, based and fully represent what is on your army list

(including all equipment).

• Every miniature and component must be produced by Games Workshop (Citadel, Forge World or Warhammer

Forge).

• We know many people like to take the opportunity to convert models for thematic and creative reasons. We actively

encourage this, but do ask that if you are going to do so, please check with the events team first. We may ask you to

make allowances at the event in order to ensure there is no confusion for your opponents.

Proxies

• A “proxy miniature” is a model that is standing in for something else and has not been changed in any way.

Examples include using plastic Cadian Shock Troops as Stormtroopers or plastic Tyranid Raveners as Fiends of

Slannesh.

• We do not allow any proxy miniatures at our events. If Games Workshop produces a model for a unit entry, we

expect you to use the correct model, for the sake of clarity to your opponent. (For conversions, please see the point

above in the ‘Miniatures’ section).

• If you wish to personalize your units and/or convert/kit bash plastic or Citadel Finecast kits to create your own

unique models that fit your vision of your army, please check with the events team first. We may ask you to make

allowances at the event in order to ensure enjoyment of your opponents. Simply gluing a scope to plastic Cadian

Shock Trooper won’t make him a Kasrkin, but adding a gnarly chainsword and an appropriate paintjob to a tactical

marine can easily make him a heretic Chaos Marine Renegade.

Oh look, he didn't actuallybuy a Chaos Space Marine, but used a tactical Marine to represent one. Learn the difference between proxy and counts-as. The same applies to Throne of Skulls and my example above regarding missile launcher for lascannon and missile launcher for missile launcher.

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

Also, it's options-wise rather difficult to use vanilla marines as SW - dual special weapons, power weapons and no heavy weapons in tacticals; WG with mixed armour types, not to mention some of the weirder options SW have that normal marines don't.

As long as it's clear to the opponent which codex he's using, I don't see a problem if OP's Wolves don't actually look like Wolves.