Drop Pod Chapter that use SW but aren't......

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Yes, that's exactly the same passage as I quoted earlier. The one you asked for a page reference for...

Thanks for letting me know about the links. I'll edit them, as they were working fine earlier.

Perhaps I misunderstand something here, but proxying is using one thing in place of another, be it a figure or one of the weapons the figure is carrying. In your examples, the 'counts as' example you give matches the GW quote for proxying exactly. Using Devastators painted as vanilla devastators to represent LFs, is the same as using Shock Troops to represent Stormtroopers...

Edit: Given you mentioned Goat Boy, here is how he is quoted as describing the difference:

When someone asks me if a model is a proxy or ‘counts as,’ I typically respond with the following: does that model have a profile or set of rules that is legal in the current game, and those rules are different from what you plan on using? For the most part if the answer to that question is yes, than it’s a proxy.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/editorial-is-it-proxy-or-is-it-counts.html

and here's the original article that caused the stink:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/01/goatboys-army-list-continuing-with.html

So do the vanilla marines, painted so that they don't look like SW, have different and distinct rules?

Yes, acute senses and counter attack are not part of a vanilla marine's profile in Codex SM.

It is legal when there is no existing alternative rule or GW produced model for that weapon, figure or part of a figure, e.g. you do a cool conversion of Bran Redmaw in his Wulfen form.

As you also mentioned Adepticon, here is their model policy for 2013:

2. Units must always be represented by appropriate models. This is the single, most important rule. The 'What You See Is What You Get' (WYSIWYG) rule is in effect for all tournaments. That means all units MUST be easily identifiable as the particular choice they represent and that any and all weapons/options taken for a unit MUST be clearly represented on the model(s). Models not appropriately represented will be removed from the game.

3. Unless otherwise specified in the event rules, or receiving tournament organizer approval, your army should be primarily constructed of models from the given game system and the appropriate model range(s). Supplementing your army with models from outside the game system is acceptable but should NOT be the norm.

http://www.adepticon.org/13rules/2013modelpolicy.pdf

Again, would non-SW painted vanilla devastator marines be 'easily identifiable' as LFs? I suggest not, and an opponent might get upset when they unexpectedly split fire. So you would need to clarify the issue with the event organisers in advance.

I'll be happy to revert if you have alternative referenced and distinct definitions for both terms

Also, you seem confused on what chaos renegades look like in the fluff. Given that don't all immediately grow horns etc. a tactical marine, painted appropriately and with modest conversion work, will meet the basic requirements of looking like a renegade. A non SW model, painted to look like it is not a SW will not meet the criteria under GW tournie rules to be a SW and use codex SW. You may not like it, but those are their rules, not mine. After all, they are running a business and want us to buy more toys, so why make it easy for us to use one army for several codexes?

Regards,

[Wulfebane]

A. There are no Long Fang models. Not anymore. We are forced to kitbash from SM Dev squads. Anyone who mixes a SW model with an SM to reduce "wolf bling" is no longer a Space Wolf. Any WG with a CML. Any jetpacks or bikes. All scouts. So by your logic, the entire SW codex is illegal for tournaments with lists that include them.

 

B. A Space Wolf without his pelts and markings (which are suggestions, not mandate, per the codex) is just a space marine in PA/TDA. So, regardless of what they look like or how they are painted, if a space marine model has equipment that matches what is indicated in whatever codex for whatever unit they intend to be used as, they are in all accounts WYSIWYG. Per the rules for WYSIWYG, so long as they do not bear gear they are not meant to, it is assumed they are equipped with all the gear listed under their unit heading. Hence why a GH is not needed to show a ccw, bolt pistol, or boltgun. So essentially, an SM squad straight out of the box can be legally played as a SW unit (assuming you don't give one the missile launcher).

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

A. There are no Long Fang models. Not anymore. We are forced to kitbash from SM Dev squads. Anyone who mixes a SW model with an SM to reduce "wolf bling" is no longer a Space Wolf. Any WG with a CML. Any jetpacks or bikes. All scouts. So by your logic, the entire SW codex is illegal for tournaments with lists that include them.

B. A Space Wolf without his pelts and markings (which are suggestions, not mandate, per the codex) is just a space marine in PA/TDA. So, regardless of what they look like or how they are painted, if a space marine model has equipment that matches what is indicated in whatever codex for whatever unit they intend to be used as, they are in all accounts WYSIWYG. Per the rules for WYSIWYG, so long as they do not bear gear they are not meant to, it is assumed they are equipped with all the gear listed under their unit heading. Hence why a GH is not needed to show a ccw, bolt pistol, or boltgun. So essentially, an SM squad straight out of the box can be legally played as a SW unit (assuming you don't give one the missile launcher).

A. Revisit what I wrote about the lack of an existing model. Does the little plastic marine look like a SW or not? If he has a been deliberately painted to not look like a SW then that'll be a no according to the GW tournie rules. Other events may and do have a more liberal take on this.

B. Yes and no. Yes, you can use a tactical marine figure painted to look like a SW as a GH. If you have no intention of modelling and painting it as a SW then, again according to the GW tournie rules, then it is not a SW. Again, at other events this may not be an issue.

All my LFs are 2nd Edition releases bought either back in 1995 or over t'internet since then (hence not realising they had withdrawn the LF boxed set). They are GW produced figures and they look like what they are meant to be, i.e. SW LFs. However, say, for example, the Devastators are painted bright yellow and have a unique chapter symbol, i.e. they look like vanilla marines and there is nothing remotely wolfy about the army = room for confusion.

The OP wanted to know if there might be a problem for tournie play. The answer I am providing is, 'Yes, there may be an issue. Some tournies will be fine with it, others will not and some will require a quick email to confirm what they are happy with'. Simplies

Regards,

Edit, sorry I missed this one:

By your definition, everyone who paints up a Wulfen/13Co army isn't a SW army due to the amount of chaos bits they are likely to have. For that matter, anyone with the grey-grey color scheme either, as they're not what it looks like in the codex. This is simply absurd.

As far as I know, the EoT lists are not regarded as tournie legal either by GW, but various shades of grey are featured in the codex. Grey-grey is used on the front cover illustration, for example. Again we come back to, is it recognisably a SW army or not? Now, in what way is that absurd?

[Wulfebane]

Your Space Wolves are not painted to look like my Space Wolves = room for confusion.

 

You don't have to have your army look like GWs version of a Space Wolf to be allowed to use the Space Wolf codex for your army. I can paint my SWs bright pink and still be allowed to use the codex. Nothing in any set of rules states I must have X amount of pelts and fangs shown on my models for them to look like a "Space Wolf ". In fact, I've just decided that my Wolves worship the Raven and will be covered in feathers. I think I'll use Deathwing models to show that. Guess what... still legal.

 

Furthermore, define a "vanilla" marine. If I were brand new to the game and walked up to a player with an entirely red army, he could claim it were blood angels, blood ravens, or his own DIY bloody fists of the emprah and all would be legit, yet until he declares he's using the SM or BA codex, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

 

What we're getting at is the army scheme doesn't matter. The armaments and what is permitted by the codex you declare you are using are all that factor into WYSIWYG rulings; whether my models' skin are purple or pelts are green mean absolutely nothing.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Have you read the quotes or checked the linked I've provided, little brother? It's just that you appear to be arguing based on what you think is 'right' rather than what is published by GW with regards to participation in their competitions this year.

 

This is not about what is legal down the club house or in a game with friends as per the RB, but what is tournie legal. Each event should publish its rules in advance and they vary - sometimes significantly.

 

Perhaps, your experience at GW events is different though? I know, for example, that there is a very different standard for not competitive, themed weekends :)

[CM_Seth]

They're not vanilla Marines. They're a DIY chapter that Zodiac feels is best represented by the Space Wolves codex. You can quote GW tournament rules for hours, which you have been, but I've yet to hear a solid example of a DIY Marine army being barred from a tournie just because their furs and fangs to model ratio was too low or they were the wrong shade of Space Wolves Grey. And outside of GW sponsored events, it becomes even less of a problem, so I'm going to go ahead and call this a nonissue.

As for representing the wargear, I'm confused why everyone is ignoring the possibility of simplistic conversions to make sure Tactical Marines have Grey Hunter wargear. Some chainswords, combat knives, and bolt pistols space throughout the unit will drive home the point they have a more melee bent than your average Tactical Marine, and obviously Tactical Marines aren't going to be hauling power weapons and standards.

[DanPesci]

 

There will be no confusion as to what unit is what in my force. Every unit will have the appropriate weaponry, so there will never be a question about what a certain model is firing. And unless I am mistaken (don't own the codex, running from memory) then a bolter marine in the SW book is equal to a bolter marine in EVERY other codex.

 

Actually, our standard bolter marines are pretty much better than every other 'standard' marine loadout - our grey hunters come with a bolter, bolt pistol, and CCW by default. And have counter attack & acute senses, making them pretty much the best standard marine/troop choice out there. And also why they work so well for podding (as they can get out the pod, rapid fire, then not worry so much about not getting the charge due to counter attack) :D

 

As for the WYSIWYG issue - for me as long as the weapons on your marines are correct (eg your plasma gunners have plasma guns, not melta guns, your long fangs have the correct heavy weapon etc) then your fine. Always worth double checking with tournie organisers beforehand though jsut for clarification.

 

A good half of my grey hunters are just standard vanilla marine models painted up to match the rest of the army, with a few wolf pelts/insignia thrown in. Ive never run up against anyone who feels this is an issue. Going back to the first bit of my post, not all of my marines have th ebolter, bolt pistol and CCW modelled on them. I have a mix throughout the squad. Again, this has never caused any issues.

[Kastellan Kong]

So do the vanilla marines, painted so that they don't look like SW, have different and distinct rules?

 

Yes, acute senses and counter attack are not part of a vanilla marine's profile in Codex SM.

 

Aye, but acute senses is not represented in anyway on the model. I can't look at a SW mini and go "Oh look how acute his senses look, that's totally a SW!" It's a rule in the Codex without any WYSIWYG representation. Same goes for counter attack. ;)

 

As long as the model has the right wargear and weaponry what does the colour of the Marine matter for WYSIWYG? I've never been to a tournament where I haven't either handed over a list, been asked or explained what I'm actually running. After that point, confusion has never been an issue. Not even at competitive tournaments.

 

Now if you were trying to pass of a Daemon Prince off as your Wolf Lord on Thunder Wolf... well...

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Always worth double checking with tournie organisers beforehand though jsut for clarification.

At last someone actually gets the point. There may be an issue and it is easily resolved.

[Grey Mage]

Always worth double checking with tournie organisers beforehand though jsut for clarification.

At last someone actually gets the point. There may be an issue and it is easily resolved.

I got the point, but I disagree with it on most every level. The hobby is worse for it when people take this stance about modeling.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I got the point, but I disagree with it on most every level. The hobby is worse for it when people take this stance about modeling.

Whether you are I agree with the point or not, GM, is irrelevant to the fact that it exists. I have personally encountered this issue, it is reflected in certain tournament rules and I felt it appropriate to warn Kodiak about it.

Sorry to Seth et al for having quoted GW rules at length, but I was accused of having a 'fictitious opinion of the rule' and other such nonsenses. So, having been basically called out for inventing things or it being a 'non-issue', I felt it necessary to fight my corner.

I have consistently stated that I have no problem with it, but people seem happier to shoot the messenger than the message

Perhaps I should not have bothered and let the OP potentially find out the hard way, but that hasn't traditionally been the norm in the Fang ...

Hey ho!

[Grey Mage]

I got the point, but I disagree with it on most every level. The hobby is worse for it when people take this stance about modeling.

Whether you are I agree with the point or not, GM, is irrelevant to the fact that it exists. I have personally encountered this issue, it is reflected in certain tournament rules and I felt it appropriate to warn Kodiak about it.

Sorry to Seth et al for having quoted GW rules at length, but I was accused of having a 'fictitious opinion of the rule' and other such nonsenses. So, having been basically called out for inventing things or it being a 'non-issue', I felt it necessary to fight my corner.

I have consistently stated that I have no problem with it, but people seem happier to shoot the messenger than the message

Perhaps I should not have bothered and let the OP potentially find out the hard way, but that hasn't traditionally been the norm in the Fang ...

Hey ho!

Hardheaded debates are also a tradition of the fang as Im sure you recall.

:p

That being said, Its a true rarity for me to hear about WYSIWYG on such an OCD level as youve described outside of privateer press tournaments, and Ive always been offended that GW saw fit to ban even parts of other modeling companies minis from their events seeing as how they once had us make landspeeders from deodorant sticks and kitbashed half the minis in their magazines. A true hobbyist theyd say converts and paints to the best of their ability, its part of the experience. Such rules as youve quoted go against everything that idea stands for, and its part of why Ive never been in a hurry to go to a GW store.

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Not to attack Durfast, but I can't believe GW tournaments would be like that (I haven't been to one, this is just astonishment on my part). Seems, like others have said, completely contradictory to everything that is wonderful about the hobby. The 5 mins spent explaining my counts-as-SW before a game to an opponent (and the 5mins he spends explaining his) are almost as much fun as the game itself, getting to show off your imagination and hard work (OK, maybe an exaggeration, but you get the idea). In my local gaming group about half the people there run counts-as armies (not proxies), a number which is rising. Long may that trend continue!

[Wulfebane]

Most the armies I get to play at my flgs, I'm lucky if they have a base coat. And too often when I've killed one, my opponent sees fit to chuck it a full foot, or further, into a pile of similar models, much to my horror. Its unfathomable how such little regard can go into what costs so much to acquire.

 

I know next to nothing of xenos armies, so they could all be equipped with lego sticks for proxying and I wouldn't know the difference. To be honest, the tournament players/officials durfast describe sound like sad, lonely, virginal creatures and I thank Russ I'm not one.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

To be honest, the tournament players/officials durfast describe sound like sad, lonely, virginal creatures and I thank Russ I'm not one.

Very true and, unsurprisingly, I've avoid GW hosted competitions at WHW for some time, especially since they became even more prescriptive about conversations that contain parts from other firms. However, not all tournies are the same and it helps if you go with friends or know other participants. There is plenty of experience in the Fang, so someone should be able to warn you off the more 'intense' events.

 

If you are UK-based or within range, then I recommend the Tempus Fugitives events, both for the quality of the armies and the friendliness of the attendees :)

[Valerian]

So, do we know what part of the world Kodiak hails from? It seems that if he is U.S-based (or at least not U.K.-based), then he should never run into the issues that Brother Durfast is describing. It seems the American players have a much more gamer-friendly interpretation/implementation on the WYSIWYG "rule of thumb".

 

Valerian

[Kodiak599]

I'm in the U.S. Texas to be exact. Haven't made my profile up yet :) Thanks for all the advice