Black Knights or Deathwing knights?

[Tiger9gamer]

So I was thinking about what a better "deathstar" unit would be.

 

In most of the games I played, I tried a LRC full of DW knights and a termie/Redemption mace chaplain, but that hasn't been cutting (smashing?) it lately. The worst was when they failed to kill a single Tervigon with full smite, even after 5 rounds of combat. they also have been getting shot to death recently, and they just move to slowly for combat

 

but, In the same game, the 6 man Black knight unit took down several waves of gaunts and a warlord Tervigon, so I was thinking of switching them out.

 

The basic unit composition would be 9 knights w/ three grenade launchers, and it would be lead by the mace chaplain on a bike. Think it would be better?   

[twopounder]

Sounds like really bad rolling. I have 6 knights and Belial hold off an entire tyranid army for 2 turns, and the rest of the DW dropped in before they died. Even after being lashed, they killed a trygon and half of the warrior/tyranid prime squad that assaulted them.

 

Placement is everything. They're slow, but tend to utterly destroy everything they touch.

 

Black Knights are equally devastating. Less survivable but they make most units in the game suffer instant death from plasma, and some even suffer instant death from bolter fire. They're basically well armored, hit-and-run genestealers with twin-linked plasma guns and better stats. The downside is that genestealers would still strike first and kill them. Oh, and a single helldrake can table a ravenwing army.

[Brother Immolator]

My stern belief is both. They operate so good together.

[Eulfein]

would you field both in a 1500 pt army? how many RBK then if you do? a full 6?

[Brother Immolator]

would you field both in a 1500 pt army? how many RBK then if you do? a full 6?

Both of those are for the 1850+ scale. I wouldnt take either below that thresh hold.

In a 1500 army you can cram pretty much everything you need on regualar choices IMHO.

 

And yes go six or go home.

 

EDIT: Personal preferences, I dont advocate to be a military genius :D

[elphilo]

While I think Ravenwing Black Knights are a better unit overall. I think if you're looking for a deathstar unit you want to keep with the Deathwing Knights. What makes a true deathstar, in my eyes, is the 2+/3++. While the Ravenwing Black Knights would get a 3+ and 4+ jink roll, the jink roll isn't as guaranteed as the Storm Shield is, what with new tau marker lights and the baleflamer.

As was said before, it sounds like you've had some bad rolls. Don't worry about it, you'll end up on the other side of the bell curve eventually

[Eulfein]

noted on personal preferences brother! il post a beginner's Dark Angels army in a bit on the army list thread.

[Rizara]

In smaller games, I would definitely say the blackknights might fair better overall.  Deathwing knights are good, but they shine against chaos.  Blackwing knights are mobile, with ranged firepower, debuffs, and pretty stout hand to hand ability, and don't have to be in base to base to get T5.  However they aren't as survible armor wise as deathwing knights would be.   I think in a smaller game they might do better, as an all around unit, deathwing knights on the other hand can hit hard, but need to get to their target and their mobility is their ultimate weakness.  The chaplain almost seems like a waste in the unit, he is a nasty powerhouse in his own right, but ravenwing honestly don't want to be in hand to hand, even though the black knights have pretty descent melee abilities, the only time I would want them in melee is only after hitting  a unit with both grenades, and then your chaplain is like overkill.   Not that he is a bad choice, I just not sure he is a good fit in black knights is all, because of the overkill, especially if your taking 9 knights.  

[Brother Immolator]

Deathwing knights are good, but they shine against chaos.

That IMHO, is a mistake. Its based on focusing on a single rule while ignoring the other two, which are their whole juice.

The hammer of wrath attacks and power upping of the maces that can destroy everything in a single round, regardless of alignment.

 

IMHO If you are using them to combat anything else than another deathstar/MoC you are better off buying TH/SS terminators instead.

Ap3(chaos marines) can be destroyed by plasma or ordinance why use a horribly expensive elite slot for that?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Ap3(chaos marines) can be destroyed by plasma or ordinance why use a horribly expensive elite slot for that?

Because it's AWESOME. Why are you against AWESOME?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The toppiest of lels. It seems I'm not the only one who's had over 3 coffees today.

[Tiger9gamer]

The thing is, the DWK always die for me in my games, and it seems I lose one knight every shooting phase because my rolling is :cuss. they got wiped out by guants in my last game :/ They really only seem good for smashing apart other deathstars they come across, and even then that is a big if for my dice rolling.

 

the black knights seem like it can do almost the same as DWK, and more. They don’t need a massive transport to get around, they are T5 all the time, and with working around dark shrouds, they get a 2+ cover. The helldrake is a problem, but not a lot of people in my GW take them. even so, I can grab a power field generator for a 4++ invuln. 

 

The reason the chaplain is in there is thatI want a kick-ass bodyguard for him that can wreck anything they touch, and hatred on 32 strength 5 (or with Furious charge warlord trait, strength 6) rending attacks may have the ability to smash most deathstars. And that’s not even counting the 3 grenade effects. 

 

Maybe I need to run them more to actually make a decision.

[elphilo]

The thing is, the DWK always die for me in my games, and it seems I lose one knight every shooting phase because my rolling is :cuss. they got wiped out by guants in my last game :/ They really only seem good for smashing apart other deathstars they come across, and even then that is a big if for my dice rolling.

the black knights seem like it can do almost the same as DWK, and more. They don’t need a massive transport to get around, they are T5 all the time, and with working around dark shrouds, they get a 2+ cover. The helldrake is a problem, but not a lot of people in my GW take them. even so, I can grab a power field generator for a 4++ invuln.

The reason the chaplain is in there is thatI want a kick-ass bodyguard for him that can wreck anything they touch, and hatred on 32 strength 5 (or with Furious charge warlord trait, strength 6) rending attacks may have the ability to smash most deathstars. And that’s not even counting the 3 grenade effects.

Maybe I need to run them more to actually make a decision.

Seems like you're trying to write off a whole unit because of dice rolling. You're going to have good days and bad days. Thats just how it works. If you feel like its your actual dice you should probably try finding some "casino dice." They tend to have hard edges as a to curved edges. Its hard to explain but this video will explain it nicely. Though just an FYI that guy is a dice maker and is trying to sell you his dice

While putting a PFG is great for a quick and easy way to give a unit an invulnerable save, you have to remember its only a 3" bubble and its a per model basis. It also gives your opponent an invulnerable save. So if its on that Interrogator-Chaplain on bike you want, he's going to give his challenged opponent a save. Now most ICs will have a save but their body guard won't, so you're just making it harder on yourself. I feel that PFGs are for a unit that doesn't want to see melee all too often. So its great for Black Knights, but not if they are your deathstar unit.

Also, I personally don't think you can compare a 2+ cover to a 3++. There is a myriad of things in 40k that get rid of cover saves while there is very little that gets rid of invulnerables. Yes most things that get rid of a cover save is still going to leave you with a 3+, but the point of a deathstar is to stick around, and you can't really do better than a 2+/3++.

But in the end its up to you and your play style. Personally I say keep giving the Deathwing Knights your deathstar title. The odds will eventually come back into your favor

[hardimanm]

Just cause a unit is killed does not mean they did not do their job.  You have to look at how much attention your opponent put on them and how much they changed their game plan.

 

 

Take for example, one of my other armies is Eldar.  I always run one Wraithlord.  He is seldom a game changer by himself.  Usually he is dead by turn 3.  But to me it is a win because the total amount of firepower that was focused on this one model meant that everything else was spared the fire. 

 

The same thing happens when i bring in my DWK's.  They focus so much fire power trying to bring down this one unit that all my more vulnerable units are spared and allowed to operate with little fear of retaliation.

 

The fact they can deep strike makes this "shooting sponge" ability even better.  The reason, it is a distraction for your opponent.  Just by deep striking this unit you instantly change your opponents stratagy.  You put him on the defensive.  Forcing him to react to your moves and not the other way around.

[Tiger9gamer]

Hmmm yea, I forgot about the PFG invuln shianigans X-X i remember I gave an iron clad a 4++ save once.... bleh.

 

 

I'm still thinking about it, but I can see the points where the DW knights are better. Maybe I should try a Different kind of DW squad? say x3-TH/SS and x2-twin lightning claws? or maybe I should add more dudes... 

 

I think I'll try both for now, and come to a conclusion later this week, but for now... can anyone give me thier experience running the black knights?

[Rizara]

Also their is not three grenade effects. You can only have he effects from one rad grenade and one stasis grenade on a single unit. Your third grenade launcher won't be providing any other debuff, so honestly you would be better off taking two grenade launchers and 7 plasma talons. All you need to do is hit with each grenade type on the unit to give them the debuff. Still a unit getting shot up and then assaulted by the black knight who are at a -1 toughness, initiative and weapon skill. Adding the chaplain will make them scarier, but it will also make the unit become a target priority even more so, so don,t be suprised if they die a lot like the death wing knights do. Proble is you are replacing one tough unit for another and both are seen as a threat.

 

The trick is taking a unit of both and making them work together, and make the opponent decide which to take out first.

[Tiger9gamer]

Good points, and I didn't know that about the 'nade launcher X-X dang. well, maybe another plasma talon would be good, too. 

 

Okay, so lets say I'm running both.... where should the warlord be?

[twopounder]

Just cause a unit is killed does not mean they did not do their job.  You have to look at how much attention your opponent put on them and how much they changed their game plan.

 

 

Take for example, one of my other armies is Eldar.  I always run one Wraithlord.  He is seldom a game changer by himself.  Usually he is dead by turn 3.  But to me it is a win because the total amount of firepower that was focused on this one model meant that everything else was spared the fire. 

 

The same thing happens when i bring in my DWK's.  They focus so much fire power trying to bring down this one unit that all my more vulnerable units are spared and allowed to operate with little fear of retaliation.

 

The fact they can deep strike makes this "shooting sponge" ability even better.  The reason, it is a distraction for your opponent.  Just by deep striking this unit you instantly change your opponents stratagy.  You put him on the defensive.  Forcing him to react to your moves and not the other way around.

^ This. The main reason I drop DWK in turn 1 with Belial is so they can pretty much survive everything for a turn, then the rest of the DW drops right on top of the bad guys with twin-linked firepower goodness.

 

It's a huge gamble, but so far it's always paid off, and it's something that your opponent is going to remember for the rest of their lives. But yes, they can still die, no matter how good they are and I've also lost the whole squad after they did their job. Though it was a 6 man at the time. I have yet to lose a 10 man knight squad.

 

The very fact that your opponent will ignore the rest of your army to kill a squad  for 3 turns makes them worth their points, so you can focus on your objectives.

 

Also, any problems you have with rolling are going to be far worse with Ravenwing. They depend on a 3+/4++ instead of 2+/3++. They get more attacks, but depend on that rending 6. They can shoot, but you have to watch out for overheating 1's. Most of their abilities are coupled with their debuffs, so missing with grenades can cost you models. You need to pass hit and run tests, and you'll generally outflank so you'll need good reserve rolls (no deathwing strike here).

 

So yeah, if you are ditching a unit because of poor rolling, moving to a softer unit that rolls even more isn't going to help.

[Tiger9gamer]

Yea, I see your point. Well, once I'm all caught up with work, i'm going to try it again against Not-Tyranid armies. Never won a game against them yet for one year running. maybe I need more Banners.

[Spaniard]

Also their is not three grenade effects. You can only have he effects from one rad grenade and one stasis grenade on a single unit. Your third grenade launcher won't be providing any other debuff, so honestly you would be better off taking two grenade launchers and 7 plasma talons. All you need to do is hit with each grenade type on the unit to give them the debuff. Still a unit getting shot up and then assaulted by the black knight who are at a -1 toughness, initiative and weapon skill. Adding the chaplain will make them scarier, but it will also make the unit become a target priority even more so, so don,t be suprised if they die a lot like the death wing knights do. Proble is you are replacing one tough unit for another and both are seen as a threat.

 

The trick is taking a unit of both and making them work together, and make the opponent decide which to take out first.

 

If you really want to get pricey have two squads of 6 black knights on each side of a LRC with AZZY and 5 death knights.

[Master Sheol]

I play usually at 1750 or 2000 points... I Always Field a 6 men BK Unit and a 6 men DWK Unit.

I love both and they are both good IMHO...

Iam planning an apo match at 5000 points so i guess i Will double both BK and DWK (2x6 BK 2x6 DWK).

[Tiger9gamer]

i hope they outperform my vindicators at least.

 

any more experince? how well do they get along?

[Tiger9gamer]

Please give me more experience? I'm really debating dropping 100$ on two boxes of Black knights.

[hardimanm]

I have had really good luck with my 6 man Black Knight squad.

 

I usually attach a chaplain on bike and Sammael to the squad.

 

Just dont let the Korvos hammers lead you into a false sense that this unit is a hand to hand monster though.  Having the IC with the unit really helps their HtH abilities. But their real punch lies in the grenade launchers and the plasma talons.  Only assault weaken and wittled down units where possible.

[Tiger9gamer]

I also re-read the entry, and rad grenades do stack. "if one or more hit, it takes effect"