Looking for some inspiration to start raising Chaos anew.

[Prot]

+warning= This is about 187% longer than I meant it to be. Sorry about that...

 

 

So here's the deal with my 'situation' right now.

 

I have like 14 billion armies, and about 8 million of those are painted. I've sold off more painted armies than most people will see in a GW Tournament. It's an illness I have, and even more cowbell ain't gonna fix it.

 

But time and time again I ALWAYS come back to friggin Chaos. The codex has been a mess for years. I played them before they were 'good' (pre 3rd) and well beyond their strong and sexy days into Gav-dex and Gav-dex Re-dux 2.0.

 

So at this point I will state the obvious: I know they aren't going to win me best general any time soon, but I've grown beyond that now and I just want to do something -competitve- (gotta be careful with that word around here!) and more fun than playing 'pull my finger' with a Nurgling.

 

Getting on with this....in my realization that I'm probably going to bury my 'crons and Wolves for a while and come back to the home that treats me like a baby treats a diaper... Chaos, I'm still stuck.

 

There are only a few Legions I haven't done to death. I may have started them, but never got too far with them. I believe it must be an original Legion.  So I came up with Word Bearers, Black Legion, and I have bounced a third Legion idea around... but a distant choice would be Thousand Sons or Emperor's Children.

 

Word Bearers:

 

I view Word Bearers as being the dudes who started a lot of this. I originally thought of them as independent minded folk who saw themselves as slighted by the big E and they found what they believed to be a higher calling through Chaos. Is that excusable evil? Probably not, but the big 'E' is pretty evil too. So I respect the Word Bearers' ideal even if it is poorly executed at times.

 

Aaron dembski-bowden (always screw that name up sorry) is probably one of the authors that made me see them as a valid army. I did a crappy book review when this came out because I found it a fantastic read compared to some of the bland, repetitive H.H. novels we'd seen lately. But is there anything else out there worth reading? My biggest peeve with First Heretic was the kind of puny representation Logar was for the legion in that novel. I know I accused him of being kind of a poopy leader (I guess a lot of the Primarchs are  written that way).  But I heard his portrayal gets better....

 

Also the dude that gets possessed... that guy was very cool. I hope he doesn't die at some point...although I imagine it's inevitable.

 

So anyone have any solid reading advice for me? I grab a lot of army inspiration from what I'm reading. Heretic was great, but I'd like to see more...

 

Black Legion:

 

I know these guys are supposed to be the big players. But they lose Horus and it seems to go south really quick. I know I've always compared Abe to that drunken uncle you have to put up with every Christmas and you can't wait til he passes out again and someone stuffs him into a taxi... until next year when he lauches yet another 'Black Crusade'. I am sorry, but that's how I see how GW have treated him. I know some of you are HUGE fans of his, but aside from him trying to bully lunch money out of the Mornival, I haven't seen much leadership qualities written of him in a loooong time.

 

Out of all the legions they just seem by far the least interesting to me (which is really a shame and... wrong).

 

Has anything come out that builds on the Black Legion?  What inspires you to play them?

 

Thousand Sons:

 

So I love the colour scheme, and the background. Loved Prospero Burns as well!  A friend of mine has done an awesome job with the army so the thought is intimidating. (He's always winnning painting awards at local tournies) But I think I could pull off the scheme. So why are they a distant choice for me?  Two reasons....

 

1.)  A little repetitve. When your motto is 'all is dust', that doesn't give you a lot of diversity for troop models or choices. But I think I could work past this because of the cool colour scheme.

 

B.)  Rules wise these guys got so hosed in the codex. It's a good thing 'all is dust' because these guys got kicked in the 'brown eye of terror' pretty darn hard. I can work with some of this... 1Ksons who aren't quite 1Ksons could be Havoks, or machines (Forgefiend, etc.)

 

2.5)  Sorcs are cool, but Chaos sorcs seem really bad. Stuck taking one power..... the Tzeentch abilities seem the worst?! Divination is all I see at tournies.... What's the deal with Tzeentch sorcs? Are they as bad as they seem?

 

C. ) We play 1500 points in tournies, and thus in 'fun' games it's usually 1500 pts. The Codex overall seems to be better suited to larger games, but 1K Sons? Potentially the hardest army to make functional at 1500.... what do you think?

 

So that's more than two reasons. Anyway, I left off with Prospero Burns... is there anything good to read about these guys? (And I don't mean the getting urinated on by dogs... that horse has been beat to death.)

 

Emperor's Children:

 

I actually love the background here, much like Thousand Sons. But they're so.... pink... so very very PINK. I believe in staying true to original colours (call me anal). I have tried the odd fig here and there for a test, and while the tests turn out cool. The vehicles just look wrong to me... unreal. The purple variant.... not too keen on. I can do the pink but not sure about an army of it.

 

Rules wise these guys seem ok. Better since the FAQ and the changed to BlastMasters. One of the most -negative- things that really irks me about the codex is the challenges. Lucius is potentially one of the best 'challengers' in the game. Their Sorc abilites are cool... troops are 'ok'.

 

I've always thought of them as martial perfectionists. Not  as some kind of metro-sexual deviants like some people have labeled them as. They feed off of war, and the sensations it provides. I'm cool with that concept.

 

I can only recall one Emperor's Children army (and I mean FULL army) that looked good. It was on this forum way back.... like 3.5 days. I can't find any of the guy's stuff now, but the point is it's REALLY hard to find a good looking E.C. army.

 

What would inspire you to play them? Is there any fiction out there after Fulgrim?

 

===========================================================

 

Sorry for the long post. I'll admit a lot of this has been for my benefit as well as hoping you guys can give me some inspiration or even sources of inspriation for me to get into. Like I said the _good_ fiction has driven me to make some really good army efforts. I'd also like to hear if you disagree with my comments. I never mean to offend anyone, and I know the fiction changes a lot from book to book.

 

All I know is I'd really like to come back strong to Chaos... just not sure of which legion yet.

[berzerkermike84]

why not just make your own colours for a theme army? For my Red Corsairs i always mix up the red and black armour. Also for some units i paint them in non RC colours, that way i dont get tired painting red/black all the time. 

[Brother Ambroz]

Tough choice there Prot. If I were you, I'd probably have to go with Word Bearers or Black Legion. Here's my reasoning.

 

Word Bearers - Awesome fluff behind them and you can still make some pretty cool lists with them. You can include just about anything and make your own warband and still be fluffy. Mutations are acceptable, thus your modeling freedom is nigh endless. They're the chosen, essentially the first children of Chaos. Only reason I can think of not to play them is if you don't like religious fanatics then they may not be for you.

 

Black Legion - Not so awesome fluff, at the moment. ADB is rumored to be working on the Talon of Horus. Once that comes out I have a feeling we will see a gigantic increase in BL players. Anyway, these guys were the best at one point. Now, they're the largest legion left. Thus you can either go with a elite group of hardened veterans, a horde of mutants/cultists/traitor guardsmen or a horde of power armored marines. Abbadon's fluff may be bad right now, but that's just because of how he's been written. He is the chosen of the gods and the archenemy of the golden throne. There are some pretty sweet Black Legion armies out there too.

 

So hope this helps a bit, alot of rambling I know and I apologize. Good luck though and when you do decide be sure to post pictures!

[Hellios]

As a 1kson player I would say their are a number of things you can do to make rubrics interesting. While the models are fairly static, and I like the idea of a marching wall of bolters, the background shows that they can be dynamic when they want to. People have also done things like put L.E.D.s inside them so they glow... Floating vehicles and other strange things. I would say the most room for creativity comes with followers who are not 1ksons. Those who are not protected by the Rubric have a lot of room for mutation. If you take spawn, cultists or even allied imperial guard you could go crazy with the mutations.

 

From a game play perspective 1ksons suck pretty hard. They are not unplayable but they ain't great. You pay a lot of points for a 4++ save and AP3 bolters... Both are good  in theory but not so great in reality. The big problem is that cover and transports mean your AP3 won't do what it could do, and your 4++ isn't that great as most of the time you could hide in a bush if you wished. Overall the AP3 bolter is the biggest problem. It is totally useless if you come against  a Deathwing list and it won't help you won't do any better against a Green Tide army.

 

The big problem lies with the aspiring sorcerer. Expensive for what he is... Has to accept challenges (Although he is one of the best sgt level characters for accepting challenges) and so risks being killed or turning in a spawn. Oh and did I mention that the Tzeentch power list is pretty naff... Geewiz thanks GW.

 

Personally I think the EC can be used to form an army that is different from a lot of other forces game play wise. It also gives you a lot of opportunity for converting. I have a friend with a really cool force with each squad based around a different deadly sin and the appropriate daemon lord. The painting however will be a problem if you can't do it in a way that you like. I don't really like pink as a colour, but pink and purple when  used well can be amazing... However, it doesn't matter how amazing your army looks if you don't like it.

[Nehekhare]

competitive...as long as you bring 2 turkeys, the rest almost doesn't matter. NMs are okay as troops.

 

fluffwise, if it wasn't for the obviously superior IV Legion ;), the awesome event horizon-moment in the first heretic, when they lowered the geller fields and had their eternal 3 minutes in hell, would be all I need to start WB. Liberate meam ex inferis!

 

how would this work out on the field? the dark apostle is fluffy but fail, so take a lord instead (makes units fearless by prayers), or maybe a sorcerer (think of the slippery serpent erebus) or a daemon prince (argel tal?). possessed are fail, so take a unit of spawn, maybe to accompany your bike/mount lord. Cultists for troops. obligatory drakes and your pick of oblits/havocs/forgefiends for HS, all legions have those and/or employ dark mechanicum robots (WB had one that protected cyrene from the custodes). Don't shy away from marks - WB do collect favours from the gods. there you go.

[Vesper]

I'm going to talk about the Black Legion.

They bear the legacy of the Heresy, the blood of Horus, the ways of Cthonia. They are basically Space Wolves done right (I'd say SW named themselves that way because they are Luna Wolves wannabees ).

Yet, they faced defeat. Not a military one, but something that shattered them to the core. The death of a Primarch that was so idolized by his legion was a fatal blow. They were so bright, so over every other legion that their fall was a meteoric one. In the Eye, they got hunted down by other legions, making them responsible for their exile in hell. Their bases, their fleets, their companies got decimated. They bled like loyalists bled during the dropsite massacre. Beaten, broken, they also were humiliated when the corpse of Horus was stealed.

But that woke up their true pride, Abaddon 'assumed direct control'. Out of spite, hatred, pride, suffering and grief, they took the black. for they are now the fiends of Abaddon, the destroyers, and they're going to make everyone pay.

Then they wrecked face. In Chaos they won a new glory, a glory that makes the HLoT quake in fear. A glory that makes many new renegades and even other legionnaries leave their blood-related allegeance to become part of something greater, something with long time goals, a true vision, a strong leadership. I like to think they take the black in a twisted knightly ceremony, where they take their vows, paint their armour themselves and swear loyalty to the Warmaster of Chaos.

By M41, the mauled Sons of Horus rose to the biggest and the most brutal coherent (when Abaddon calls them for a crusade) fighting force. Ten times larger than the already numerous Word Bearers, with legions of human armies, virtually infinite arsenals and something to drive them forward.

They are also tactically brilliant. They still use Horus' doctrine, beheading the enemy, but they're not autistic. In fact, they know fully well the codex, as they have tons of renegades within their ranks. So they are really very flexible and can adapt to virtually everything with ease and intelligeance.

And they still retain the Cthonian brutal and merciless ways.

[Prot]

why not just make your own colours for a theme army? For my Red Corsairs i always mix up the red and black armour. Also for some units i paint them in non RC colours, that way i dont get tired painting red/black all the time.

Actually I did that already. (see my avatar and galleries) When Gav-dex came out and it became apparent that the direction (at that time) was moving away from functional legions (no rules and not much character) and more towards Space Pirates. I tried wholeheartedly to get into Huron.

As 6th turned the corner I wanted to move back into a main legion.

Tough choice there Prot. If I were you, I'd probably have to go with Word Bearers or Black Legion. Here's my reasoning.

Word Bearers - Awesome fluff behind them and you can still make some pretty cool lists with them. /snip/

Only reason I can think of not to play them is if you don't like religious fanatics then they may not be for you.

Black Legion - Not so awesome fluff, at the moment. ADB is rumored to be working on the Talon of Horus. ./snip/. There are some pretty sweet Black Legion armies out there too.

So hope this helps a bit, alot of rambling I know and I apologize. Good luck though and when you do decide be sure to post pictures!

Thanks Tanith. I always appreciate your thoughts. It is always apparent to me you are as passionate on the subject of 40K Chaos as I am. ;)

Word Bearers are indeed ultimately flexible. No guilt in fielding any sort of list. I do enjoy the colour scheme and have recently tested about 8 figs. The -fanatical- thing might be an issue for some, but not for me. It is more a dissapointment that the fanatical element is really a sidenote in this codex (IE. Dark Apostles are really a wasted opportunity.) But there's a lot they offer.

Black Legion. I've flirted with these guys often. Do you have any links to good looking armies I may have missed? It's hard to work black into a nice looking army. I tried it for years with Black Templars. I'm also trying to find some good, fresh fiction on these guys.

It probably will boil down to these two. Thanks again.

As a 1kson player I would say their are a number of things you can do to make rubrics interesting. /snip/

From a game play perspective 1ksons suck pretty hard.

Oh and did I mention that the Tzeentch power list is pretty naff... Geewiz thanks GW.

Good to hear from a 1K sons player. You pretty much confirm my concerns. I'd probably get knee deep into painting them and find their struggles on the playing field to be too much to work past in a competitive environment. You mention a lot of good points. I've seen the L.E.D. mods and some great looking stuff... but yea, they have to climb a steep hill to be successful. Plus as you mention the Psyker stuff.. ugh. Another 'what were they thinking' kind of moment.

As far as E.C, I really haven't seen a good looking -army- of them. I've seen one or two models to a good standard, but never a table top EC army that made me go, 'Wow! I should make an attempt at that army.'

Both these legions seem to have very little fiction written for them as well.

I'm going to talk about the Black Legion.

They bear the legacy of the Heresy, the blood of Horus, the ways of Cthonia. They are basically Space Wolves done right (I'd say SW named themselves that way because they are Luna Wolves wannabees ).

I really appreciate your love of the Black Legion. It's obvious you're pretty hardcore on the Black Legion. ;)

I always saw the Space Wolves (which I play) as a more... unorthodox tool used to gut just about anything standing in the way. I always saw Sons of Horus as very orthodox. The most coveted 'traditional' warmachine you could hope for. I thought of them as loved, and admired almost as much as the Wolves were despised, and kept at arm's reach.... So I think we differ on that opinion but I do agree the Black Legion was everything a Legion could hope to be at one time (the fall from grace becomes that much more special with them.)

But it seems to be the Black Legion (as you mention) is largely segmented. I agree Abaddon CAN summon a large audience. GW haven't really worked this angle very successfully since the AMAZING E.O.T. campaign. That was one of the funnest moments I've had in 40K history. The games I reported... the blast we had planning attacks right here on this forum.... and 'secret email lists'... lol. Man those were fun times. GW kind dropped that ball since then.

I see them as flexible on the table though. The colours might be limiting... I should research that some more.

Thanks for the responses. I really appreciate it. I'll look into these coming novels for Black Legion. I'm trying to get a copy of 'Betrayer' too.

[Lay]

Having warriors from other Legions swear allegiance to Abaddon is a big part of the Black Legion's fluff.

You could always make a BL army with lots of EC and TS units thrown in. Maybe add black tabards and shoulder pads for some uniformity.

[Brother Ambroz]

It's hard not to be passionate about Chaos but thanks Prot.

One thing that'd be cool to do with Word Bearers I think is is make a really corrupt and mutated looking warband. Might make more sense for Beasts of Annihilation but Word Bearers would be a close second. Yeah they're a bit harder than Black Legion or Iron Warriors to represent with the new codex, but then again they aren't as hard as Night Lords or Alpha Legion. You've got cultists, could even use possessed if you wanted, a crazy good mace daemon weapon (crozius maybe?) or ally with C:CD for some daemon hordes.

Ok for Black Legion, did a bit of a search here and these are some of my favorite blogs: Mali's, bevulf's, Danny Cyanide's (although he doesn't have too many actual Black Legion, there are some terminators at least I remember somewhere in here) and my favorite Subtle Discord's. Another thing with these guys is you can include some of each of those other legions you mentioned (or as Lay suggested above me, darn you!) and do them with your own twist to it. Like with Emperor's Children. Instead of that wierd pink scheme you can go with black. Same with the sons or bearers. Could always wait for inspiration until ADB reveals his newest masterpiece with the Talons series, or trust he'll do a good job and start with them!

[Vesper]

I really appreciate your love of the Black Legion. It's obvious you're pretty hardcore on the Black Legion.

I always saw the Space Wolves (which I play) as a more... unorthodox

tool used to gut just about anything standing in the way. I always saw

Sons of Horus as very orthodox. The most coveted 'traditional'

warmachine you could hope for. I thought of them as loved, and admired

almost as much as the Wolves were despised, and kept at arm's reach....

So I think we differ on that opinion but I do agree the Black Legion was

everything a Legion could hope to be at one time (the fall from grace

becomes that much more special with them.)

But it seems to be the Black Legion (as you mention) is largely

segmented. I agree Abaddon CAN summon a large audience. GW haven't

really worked this angle very successfully since the AMAZING E.O.T.

campaign. That was one of the funnest moments I've had in 40K history.

The games I reported... the blast we had planning attacks right here on

this forum.... and 'secret email lists'... lol. Man those were fun

times. GW kind dropped that ball since then.

I see them as flexible on the table though. The colours might be limiting... I should research that some more.

Thanks for the responses. I really appreciate it. I'll look into

these coming novels for Black Legion. I'm trying to get a copy of

'Betrayer' too.

Wasn't there (on these boards) during the Eye of Terror global campaign, but definetly played it. We had 3.5, we had truly great stuff like the EoT campaign... God that hobby was awesome by that time. Totally fought for the fall of Vigilatum. Proud of having been part of our glorious days.

Tanith Ghost pretty much found most awesome Black Legion stuff around. Noticed that guy today, his website has a picture with cool looking chosen : http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273927-converted-abaddon-the-despoiler/?do=findComment&comment=3346175

There are really few interesting fictions about the Black Legion, not gonna lie. But of course, Handsome Dembski-Bowden is working on it.

Had a brief chit-chat with him, and he's more like you when it comes to the "fragmented thing". I still think Abaddon is the ultimate ruler and that when you join the Black Legion, you're under his orders even if you're a lord, and to quote the 3.5 codex, page 44 :

Tactically, the Black Legion varies from company to company but all are guided by the implacable will of Abaddon the Despoiler so follow the same general approach.

Sure there are conflicting warbands with different ways, infighting might very well occurs too, but Abaddon is above all of them. And he might enjoy it as the strongest and the cunning are more useful to him.

On the wolf thing, the Sons of Horus come from Cthonia's hive gangs. According to Betrayal, they are ferrocious and really quite brutal, even for astartes. They look "orthodox", but in fact, it's more about Horus being loved by everyone in the imperium rather than the Sons being the ultramarines. Take someone like Abaddon, he is a living avatar of the soul of the legion. Brutal, pragmatic and merciless.

[Danny Cyanide]

Thanks for the shout out Tanith! I think you just helped me pick which legion to focus on after Iron Warriors! They are nearly done, so Black Legion will be next up! Kinda hard to have Abaddons Black Crusade without them!

[minigun762]

Prot, if you haven't already grabbed it, Check out "Angel Exterminatus". It's a HH book with Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children. Without spoiling anything, I felt like it gives you some strong insight into both legions and for what its worth, I think it might have just inspired me to pick up Iron Warriors again.

 

As far as on the table top, Noise Marines have come out as probably the second best cult troop after Plague Marines and the difference between the two is fairly minor. There is a really good on-going discussion thread in the Legion of Excess section http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271966-making-noise-marines-scream/ .

 

As far as the other choices, I like Thousand Sons, some strong background and a very defined visual look to them but man, they can be a pain to play. AP3 is better covered by drakes and noise marines which eats into their niche. That said, I see some value in using Cultists since MoTz might just be the best mark for them to help give them a constant save. It also adds some cheap scoring units and assault troops to protect your rubric squads.

 

Between Word Bearers and Black Legion, I feel like both could be quite similar on the tabletop with an emphasis on marked CSMs led either by a marked Lord or an Unmarked Sorcerer.

[Prot]

Some really good examples of great armies there. Thanks guys.

 

 

Prot, if you haven't already grabbed it, Check out "Angel Exterminatus". It's a HH book with Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children. Without spoiling anything, I felt like it gives you some strong insight into both legions and for what its worth, I think it might have just inspired me to pick up Iron Warriors again.

 

As far as on the table top, Noise Marines have come out as probably the second best cult troop after Plague Marines and the difference between the two is fairly minor. There is a really good on-going discussion thread in the Legion of Excess section http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271966-making-noise-marines-scream/ .

 

As far as the other choices, I like Thousand Sons, some strong background and a very defined visual look to them but man, they can be a pain to play. AP3 is better covered by drakes and noise marines which eats into their niche. That said, I see some value in using Cultists since MoTz might just be the best mark for them to help give them a constant save. It also adds some cheap scoring units and assault troops to protect your rubric squads.

 

Between Word Bearers and Black Legion, I feel like both could be quite similar on the tabletop with an emphasis on marked CSMs led either by a marked Lord or an Unmarked Sorcerer.

 

minigun- Yea, I have yet to read that novel. I have been tempted several times in the last months to pull out my Iron Warriors. Some of mine are so... dated! They span back over 10 years. The idea of something 'new' is enticing but I won't rule out pulling out the ol' Iron Winners.

 

Right now my biggest peeve might be the troops in the codex. So I've always been a big fan of using troops. In my mind it has to be a Legion with -strongish- troops.  I suppose IW can mark a generic lord and do just that.... (field Noise marines for instance painted as IW... that never really occurred to me. :) )

 

So that thread on the Noise Marines is very interesting. I have to read through the whole thing, but I found it really interesting that the O.P. says he doesn't see Lucius fitting in and your response is 100% the same as I would have said: in an army of forced challenges, Lucius might be the best man (thing) for the job!!! Biker Lords are pretty popular though.

 

You have me partially swayed to pull out the IW or start Emperor's Children. EC I've always liked, never got past first base with them. The troops are good especially since the FAQ. But to be honest I've never played a full game with them (in 6th).

[minigun762]

Some really good examples of great armies there. Thanks guys.

minigun- Yea, I have yet to read that novel. I have been tempted several times in the last months to pull out my Iron Warriors. Some of mine are so... dated! They span back over 10 years. The idea of something 'new' is enticing but I won't rule out pulling out the ol' Iron Winners.

Right now my biggest peeve might be the troops in the codex. So I've always been a big fan of using troops. In my mind it has to be a Legion with -strongish- troops. I suppose IW can mark a generic lord and do just that.... (field Noise marines for instance painted as IW... that never really occurred to me. )

The book was worthwhile I thought. It's extra worthwhile if you read and enjoyed "Storm of Iron".

Count as Noise Marines could work very well. Justifying them as carrying prototype weapons or something similar seems easy.

You and me are together on the troop issue. Basic CSMs took a big hit and are no longer as good for general purpose squads. Instead, my fix is treating them like Tactical Marines with dual special weapons. By Tactical Marines I mean short range shooting squads with the possibility to assault weak units like IG or Tau.

[Prot]

Some really good examples of great armies there. Thanks guys.

minigun- Yea, I have yet to read that novel. I have been tempted several times in the last months to pull out my Iron Warriors. Some of mine are so... dated! They span back over 10 years. The idea of something 'new' is enticing but I won't rule out pulling out the ol' Iron Winners.

Right now my biggest peeve might be the troops in the codex. So I've always been a big fan of using troops. In my mind it has to be a Legion with -strongish- troops. I suppose IW can mark a generic lord and do just that.... (field Noise marines for instance painted as IW... that never really occurred to me. )

The book was worthwhile I thought. It's extra worthwhile if you read and enjoyed "Storm of Iron".

Count as Noise Marines could work very well. Justifying them as carrying prototype weapons or something similar seems easy.

You and me are together on the troop issue. Basic CSMs took a big hit and are no longer as good for general purpose squads. Instead, my fix is treating them like Tactical Marines with dual special weapons. By Tactical Marines I mean short range shooting squads with the possibility to assault weak units like IG or Tau.

If I went vanilla... Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors... I kind of anticipated using basic non-marked troops as you are saying.... short range shooty squads, perhaps with one plasma gun each?

Another twist with IW was I am considering adding a basic Rhino to each squad with Havok Launcher. I experimented with this when the 6th ed codex just came out (believe it or not I have a IW rhino with a launcher on it.) For the points, I was wondering..... if this is an ideal way to spam firepower on low end vehicles.

The further idea would be to implement lots of mid/low AV: Hellbrute, Forgefiends, Defilers, etc. (Defiler might be too expensive). This reminds me of how I played a full mech IG army for quite a while. I spammed so much mediocre firepower on so much AV12, people had trouble dealing with it all. Just a thought on me trying to justify vanilla CSM troops.

[minigun762]

Sounds quite similar to what I'm currently building towards. Semi armor saturation with a lot of firepower spread out everywhere. I want to believe that basic CSMs still have value.

[Danny Cyanide]

If you are considering Iron Warriors, maybe consider the route I've taken. Use Impeiral guard for massed scolding troops and some great ordinance, then use CSM as allies for 2 units of Marines and a Lord plus a unit of havocs. I believe my current planned list fields 65 guard bodies, 5 big guns, a vendetta and then the rest from CSM.

[zyl-]

The mid-low av lists can work, but they have a seemingly higher margin for a few lucky rolls to determine the game. By this I mean, a krak missile could (though not terribly likely) destroy a defiler turn 1. Happened to me before.

 

On with that idea, though. If you use a rhino as a fire platform, just as well to include the extra 5 point bolters and maybe even some combi weapons if you have the points. It makes it so that the rhino almost has to be targeted, potentially forcing anti tank weaponry off of your tanks.

[Bonzi]

A vote for Emperors Children here.  The character fluff is meh, but the big picture stuff is great inspiration.  

 

No other Legion fell as far or as hard as the EC.  They were so high in the Emperors favor that they carried his symbol and colors on their armor and acted as his honor guard.  After the rebellion went to pot they stole the body of Horus and made a clone of him and they still taunt the Black Legion about it.  At present they are so reviled that even their fellow traitor Legions have no trust for them.  Each EC warband is entirely a cult of  obsession, you choose your warlords obsession and build your army around that.

 

As to weapons, EC carry guns entirely unique to Chaos.  They are not toting around plasma guns like some thrift-shop loyalist wannabe.  It also doesn't hurt that those weapons blow giant holes in pretty much everything.

 

As to play style, I find EC blastmaster units so cheap and effective that it leaves me loads of room for units that take my fancy.  In so many builds you get such a small portion of your points to do with as you please because you are so busy loading up on 'must takes' that there isn't much room for fun.  Currently I'm running allied Slaanesh Daemons and having a blast pairing them with my NM. 

 

Only real men are confident enough to play with plastic toy soldiers painted barbie-doll pink.

[Tenebris]

I agree with Bonzi here, Emperor's Children all the way. They are a lesson given form, the true price of perfection, the risk of hubris and the daring of arrogance. The EC are true fiends, debased, debauched and vile in every form they take and as one nicely put it, the only fate more horrifying than being captured by the Dark Eldar is being captured by the Emperor's Children. 

 

My story with the EC is one of love and hate as it is fitting for a servant of the Dark Prince. I so much wished to play Dark Angels but when in a local tournament most of the armies were Unforgiven I called it quit. My club is very hobby driven and almost everyone has Dark Angels somewhere, due to their looks and their fluff. Than I have read Fulgrim and...here is me several months after with a full budget invested into an EC army. 

 

The EC are nice in several ways. Their rules are awesome as it is now, their upgrade kits were finally made in resin and they have an unique flavor and style as Bonzi well said. The more I have learned on them the more I like my legion of degenerates. I went so far to have read every single book and shred of lore on them and they really are something unique. 

 

Oh yes, real men play with pink plastic soldiers, well mine is a pink more in line with their original scheme. I was never much enamored of their black and pale pink scheme, pre HH scheme is great though but hard to replicate.

 

Now bear in mind that we have three legions that are being present almost everywhere, the Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords. Now almost every chaos player fields one of those and you cannot blame them for the lore now created by Black Library is simply awesome. I presume that a similar treatment will get the Black Legion once ADB gets to grips with his favorite legion. Combined with an easy color scheme and a budget load of colors and you will see Black Legion aplenty.

 

Still my vote is for the Emperor's Children, they deserve it now that they are back again among fluffy and competitive armies. 

[Prot]

The mid-low av lists can work, but they have a seemingly higher margin for a few lucky rolls to determine the game. By this I mean, a krak missile could (though not terribly likely) destroy a defiler turn 1. Happened to me before.

On with that idea, though. If you use a rhino as a fire platform, just as well to include the extra 5 point bolters and maybe even some combi weapons if you have the points. It makes it so that the rhino almost has to be targeted, potentially forcing anti tank weaponry off of your tanks.

Yes, that's kind of the direction I was taking that line of thinking. Here's the issue- I love the new models, but am not too keen on their performance thus far. So my solution to shoe horn them into a semi-competitive list is to make sure the opponent has a plethora of AV11+ to shoot at. This is hard to do at 1500 because other things start to suffer.... This is just theory hammer though. No idea if it'll hold water in real life.

A vote for Emperors Children here. The character fluff is meh, but the big picture stuff is great inspiration.

As to weapons, EC carry guns entirely unique to Chaos. They are not toting around plasma guns like some thrift-shop loyalist wannabe. It also doesn't hurt that those weapons blow giant holes in pretty much everything.

As to play style, I find EC blastmaster units so cheap and effective that it leaves me loads of room for units that take my fancy. In so many builds you get such a small portion of your points to do with as you please because you are so busy loading up on 'must takes' that there isn't much room for fun. Currently I'm running allied Slaanesh Daemons and having a blast pairing them with my NM.

Only real men are confident enough to play with plastic toy soldiers painted barbie-doll pink.

Actually I love the background. The added background from the HH series, particularly Fulgrim (as slow as that book was) surprised me. I don't want to post spoilers, but let's just say that Fulgrim's.... participation in this event took me by surprise. Still when those EC's are jamming out at the concert... that's a scene that sticks out in my head. lol (Same with the disturbing 'artwork' scene.)

Sorry off track there... anyway, totally agreed on playstyle. It's a wonderful thing to find -good-, flexible troops that don't feel like they are holding back the army while preventing you from taking what you want. Particularly since I play 1500pts so often, this becomes crucial.

I am a little worried about playing a cult specific army. I am anal that way. I won't go mixing marks left and right (I know nothing prevents it). But if I were to stick to a single cult army, it might be these guys (I've done Deathguard to death in past codexes.)

It's not that pink is viewed as feminine... I just have found VERY few E.C. armies I like. I prefer pink over purple/gold, but it's a really personal hate/love theme so it appears.

I agree with Bonzi here, Emperor's Children all the way. They are a lesson given form, the true price of perfection, the risk of hubris and the daring of arrogance. The EC are true fiends, debased, debauched and vile in every form they take and as one nicely put it, the only fate more horrifying than being captured by the Dark Eldar is being captured by the Emperor's Children.

Now bear in mind that we have three legions that are being present almost everywhere, the Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers and the Night Lords. Now almost every chaos player fields one of those and you cannot blame them for the lore now created by Black Library is simply awesome. I presume that a similar treatment will get the Black Legion once ADB gets to grips with his favorite legion. Combined with an easy color scheme and a budget load of colors and you will see Black Legion aplenty.

Still my vote is for the Emperor's Children, they deserve it now that they are back again among fluffy and competitive armies.

I've got about 7K in painted Iron Warriors dating back a billion years when I first joined the BnC. lol I've been tempted to go back to them, without restrictions. I can mark a lord with Slannesh, take Iron Warrior painted models, add 2-3 blastmasters... and done. They are Noise Marines with beaten silver armour and hazard stripes.

Same goes for Word Bearers, and Black Legion. I guess in theory I could even do this with my Red Corsairs! ( I imagine they would look more like traditional Noise Marines for colour purposes in a Red Corsair army.) Plus Huron is competitive and any level.

=========================

I'm still very much in the air. I've made a thousand x a billion lists it seems.

Iron Warriors: Mostly done and I can sprinkle in new things. Sure my oldest models look like someone having a seizure painted them, but some are ok. Plus it's the one army I can make a cool Warpsmith army with. (the only army I always seem to put an Aegis defence line and quad gun into.)

I did a 2 hour test mini for Alpha Legion. Not too sold on it. I found them so hard to nail down as a legion too. Hard to get in the spirit of what might truly be the most 'undecided' of Chaos legions.

Word Bearers. Pluses= Red Gold are the new black. Sexy and durable. I highly recommend this scheme for showing off painting skills. They have no limits. There isn't a God they won't flirt with. Minuses = No real identity. Dark Apostle was the closest thing they got to a staple HQ choice and he totally blows hard chaotic chunks of uselessness.

Black Legion. Really I feel similar about them and Word Bearers except they have Abe. I'll never use him (why on earth didn't they upgrade him from 'stumpy to omnipotent uber model?) No matter how hard I try, the scheme is really hard to enjoy blending with.

Red Corsairs: Not an original legion. But still ultimately flexible. I find the colour scheme extremely difficult though. Takes me for ever to paint a model up. My gallery has most of my finished efforts on these guys, and it's not very much.

But definitely contemplating Emperor's Children as the only 'cult' legion contender at this point since Tzeentch looks like a dud yet again.

Thanks for all the input. I enjoy contemplating it. Tonight I play 1500. I have a Huron list, an E.C. list and an Iron Warrior list ready to go....Not too sure yet.

++edit++

In the back of my mind, I have considered a 'sneaky' assault style army built primarily around the Night Lords theme. These guys almost seem dead with this codex, but I think it would be a fun paint scheme.

[minigun762]

++edit++

In the back of my mind, I have considered a 'sneaky' assault style army built primarily around the Night Lords theme. These guys almost seem dead with this codex, but I think it would be a fun paint scheme.

I think they could be quite viable, considering how powerful Chaos FA choices are now (which is funny considering how bad they were previously).

I seem them a fair similar to any other undivided legion when it comes to the troop choices, but a little more aggressive in nature. Less points in the heavy slot and more in FA and Elite.

[Prot]

I had an interesting night.

 

Played 1500 against a really unique Space Wolves list. I had a zillion lists floating in my head but surprisingly for the first time since sixth edition I decided to play my old Iron Warriors.

 

My list was something like this (probably out by a bit as I'm doing this from memory):

 

Warpsmith, MoT

quad gun, Aegis line.

Defiler

Forgefiend basic setup

5 Havoks. 4 Autocannons

6 CSM, Votlw, plasma gun

6 CSM, Votlw, plasma gun

8 CSM, Votlw, melta, champ with power maul, Rhino

1 Mutliator

Heldrake, Baleflamer

3 Termies, 2 combi plasma's.

 

His list:

Space Wolves

Rune Priest Termie plus 4 more termies of various kit

aboard a Forgeworld uber flyier. No idea what this was, it was AV12 flyer, 4 hullpoints, lascannons, multi melta, dual whirlwind shots, assault ramp.

 

3 x Grey Hunters kitted out in 2 Drop Pods

2 x Dreadnaughts basic melta  and assault cannon in Foregeworld assault drop pods.

 

 

Basically we played a rulebook scenario... using 3 point objectives, kill points, etc. The table had medium density terrain... wrecked buildings and decent coverage.

 

I won the roll for first turn, I gave it to him. I decided to lower the cover save of a ruin in the middle of the table which had an objective in it.

 

The game went fairly fast... he dropped 2 pods with dreads right in front of my 6 man plasma squad. He wasn't sure how to handle that I was on the 3rd floor of that building. His shots really did nothing...

 

I ended up blowing up a pod for the quick first kill point. He brought in his flyer which was loaded with termies. I fired the quad gun and he jinked one pen, but the second pen immobilized essentially locking his flyer into high speed the rest of the game. I would ignore it the rest of the game because I didn't want the contents ripping me a new one. This was a huge break for me.

 

My first turn was again popping a pod, and his reserves basically trickled in which killed him. The Warpsmith was very 'iron warriorish' hanging out behind the aegis line, with a CSM plasma squad, placed between the Defiler and Forgefiend to hopefully repair them.

 

This didn't go well. A wolves dreadnought got ONE single rend on a my Forgefiend and with the rend bonus he penatrated me, I missed the save, and because of rends being AP2, he blew the thing sky high, putting wounds on surronding CSM killing 2 more. Ouch.

 

My termies dropped, and died to a drop pod wolve squad. I in turn burned them to death with the Heldrake and defiler with the reduced save rule from my Warpsmith (nice touch as it made a difference.)

 

My Termies were now gone, and the Mutilator kind of stumbled around doing nothing... I think it would have been better if I could 'run' but can't with those guys so he was quite slow.

 

My Rhino came in and managed to blow up second dread, the Havoks smoked some grey hunters, and a pod....

 

Eventually the Wolves flyer was grinding me down with all the shooting but still I ignored it. My marines in the rhino were surviving. He was finally fading hard, and his trickled in reserves were probably the biggest factor.

 

I eventually was down to two 3 man cms squads, and my rhino squad. My Warpsmith, Mutilitor, 3 Havoks, and the Defiler remained. He was almost wiped and tried a last second Grey Hunter drop pod on top of my dread.  I managed 1 'It will not live' save..... And roasted him the next turn and assaulted with my Warpsmith to end it.

 

I had a pretty convincing win but I  think that was the nature of our armies. Someone was going to win by a lot.

 

Conclusion:

The Warpsmith was pretty good for his points. Nothing special but not too shabby. It was fun bringing out the Iron warriors. I tried to play them in proper fashion.

 

I lost a lot of models wihtout doing a darn thing. The forgefiend literally did nothing and disappeared from a single rended Assault cannon shot... Termies too... the army had JUST enough redundancy in it to hold on. My assault element was not too good, and I was  starting to worry but I can't complain at my luck as he had a locked up mega flyer with a pile of termies and HQ on board.

 

Still I felt my list would have quite possibly got smoked by pure drop pods and his flyer... but he was unlucky. I'll take it though. ;)