Why Dark Angels?

[happybounce]

http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-dark-angel-2/

 

That is intense and tragic.  

 

I like the knightly stuff for DA as well, I guess they are based in part on the Knights Templar (or at least that's what wikipedia says).  I guess another reason to play DA rules-wise might be the extreme customization afforded by the three different types of command squads--but then I always shy away from command squads.  Has anyone ran them, and if so what do you think?

[Onisuzume]

Not knights templar, arthurian knights.

As for the command squads: have you seen the Sacred Standards?

In general, the Standards of Devastation and Fortitude seem to be the most popular ones.

[Deathwing70]

I always thought they were based on the Teutonic Knights, I mean they use alot of the same ranks, have a very rich history, were a very powerfull order that had alot of (political) influence... they even (still) have a Castle on their own little Rock in the middle of a lake!

 

Knights Templar are definately the base for Black Templars, lots of differences between Black Templars and Dark Angels.

 

I've always loved the Dark Angels, been in this hobby for I guess around 15 years now (2nd edition) and I think the main thing that attracted me was the description, the calm disciplined strategic masterminds, slow to anger, slow to forgive. Well that and the Deathwing, first of the first.

[happybounce]

Hmm yeah I may have read it wrong.  Or wikipedia may have gotten it wrong--shocking, I know!  

 

How do you guys feel about the durability of Deathwing command squads deepstriking in?  I haven't ran 5-man units of termies much in recent years, I prefer at least 7 or 8.  I guess that's what is stopping me from considering the unit.

[Aegnor]

You can give them a couple of stormshields if you're worried.

[elphilo]

Hmm yeah I may have read it wrong.  Or wikipedia may have gotten it wrong--shocking, I know!  

 

How do you guys feel about the durability of Deathwing command squads deepstriking in?  I haven't ran 5-man units of termies much in recent years, I prefer at least 7 or 8.  I guess that's what is stopping me from considering the unit.

Most people around here use the mind set (at least in a Deathwing Army) that if I have to have a non-scoring Terminator unit, I'd rather it be Deathwing Knights. And if your sole purpose is to just deep strike them in and smash face, the Deathwing Knights are going to do that for you.

 

I like the idea of the Command Squad, but they are really points heavy. And I don't think they'd be that good for a mixed wing, if you're only trying to unlock a banner. Since Power Armored Command Squads are cheaper/easier to unlock.

[Brother dean]

 

Hmm yeah I may have read it wrong.  Or wikipedia may have gotten it wrong--shocking, I know!  

 

How do you guys feel about the durability of Deathwing command squads deepstriking in?  I haven't ran 5-man units of termies much in recent years, I prefer at least 7 or 8.  I guess that's what is stopping me from considering the unit.

Most people around here use the mind set (at least in a Deathwing Army) that if I have to have a non-scoring Terminator unit, I'd rather it be Deathwing Knights. And if your sole purpose is to just deep strike them in and smash face, the Deathwing Knights are going to do that for you.

 

I like the idea of the Command Squad, but they are really points heavy. And I don't think they'd be that good for a mixed wing, if you're only trying to unlock a banner. Since Power Armored Command Squads are cheaper/easier to unlock.

I'm still going to build one for completeness (and cause I hand painted a banner,)  but yeah, Go for the PA command squad for a competitive list.

[elphilo]

Hmm yeah I may have read it wrong. Or wikipedia may have gotten it wrong--shocking, I know!

How do you guys feel about the durability of Deathwing command squads deepstriking in? I haven't ran 5-man units of termies much in recent years, I prefer at least 7 or 8. I guess that's what is stopping me from considering the unit.

Most people around here use the mind set (at least in a Deathwing Army) that if I have to have a non-scoring Terminator unit, I'd rather it be Deathwing Knights. And if your sole purpose is to just deep strike them in and smash face, the Deathwing Knights are going to do that for you.

I like the idea of the Command Squad, but they are really points heavy. And I don't think they'd be that good for a mixed wing, if you're only trying to unlock a banner. Since Power Armored Command Squads are cheaper/easier to unlock.

I'm still going to build one for completeness (and cause I hand painted a banner,) but yeah, Go for the PA command squad for a competitive list.

Ditto. The only thing I'm missing is the Deathwing Champion, but he's already primed. I just have to find motivation to actually paint him. Which will be hard

[Upstartes]

I plan to use a DW Command Squad in friendly games. I intend to use the Banner of Fortitude. I'll deep strike the other DW units first, then use Belial to bring in the command squad down in a position where the banner covers the most units as possible. The banner itself will boost the durability of the command squad, plus I plan for the squad to be full of TH/SS.

 

It may not be as competitive as a team of DWKs, but it'll be fun.

[happybounce]

Well I do love terminators of all shapes, forms and sizes.  Looks like I'm building a command squad!

 

Here's another reason to play Dark Angels, and yet one more thing that convinced me over Grey Knights (at least for now): the codex fluff is awesome.  It's written in an evocative and near-mythological fashion, drawing me in and getting me all kinds of excited about hunting the fallen, which will be super fun for all my friends as I am always going to insist their lords are in fact fallen.  I haven't loved reading a codex this much since the Space Wolves got some love.

 

Now, I am not one to jump on the anti-Matt Ward bandwagon--I loved the fluff and rules for the Space Marines codex he wrote, in fact I've read that codex cover to cover more than any others.  But I just can't read the Grey Knights codex.  It's so overwrought and over the top, with so little emotional investment, it feels like Space Marine fan fiction.  The rules are amazeballs, sure, and 40 point terminator troops with no special character to unlock is crazy good, but I just don't give a crap about them.  When I do build a Grey Knight army, it will be a counts-as army, because I simply cannot possibly care about them, and I can't play an army I don't care about.

[Brother dean]

Cross forum post..   Sorry...

 

Um yes...   Ward is OTT but I wouldnt buy or model an army if I couldnt connect with it...

 

[Aegnor]

Plus, and this may just be me, but I prefer the look of the 'normal' terminators over the Grey Knight ones.

[HsojVvad]

FOR NOW. What a lot of what people say make DA unique, is for now until the new C:SM comes out. Then we might see belly aching again just like last time because SM will get the same or something better. Hopefully it will not happen.

 

Why I love DA? I love the colour scheme. I love the minis. I love the fluff.

 

Also, are we really the Unforgiven? Maybe we are really the Fallen? I never read the book yet but one of the Fallen (Unforgiven? :P) says it's the DA that are really the "bad guys" the Fallen who are hunting the "good guys" the Loyalists. Most will say it's not true, but it does add to the mystery of who are the real DA?

[pueriexdeus]

Because their Green

[Onisuzume]

Also, are we really the Unforgiven? Maybe we are really the Fallen? I never read the book yet but one of the Fallen (Unforgiven? ) says it's the DA that are really the "bad guys" the Fallen who are hunting the "good guys" the Loyalists. Most will say it's not true, but it does add to the mystery of who are the real DA?

Would you believe what a Fallen would claim to an Interrogator-Chaplain at face value with no other motives behind it on account of the Fallen?

[Azoriel]

Especially given that we already know everything Astellan claimed was outright false - not only including the stuff he was just guessing at ("The Lion was a fence-sitter!  I have nothing to support this other than the pre-existing grudge I have against my own primarch, but I totally know this was the case!") but even down to his own conduct on Caliban ("I never at any point rebelled against the Emperor!  Honest!").

[happybounce]

FOR NOW. What a lot of what people say make DA unique, is for now until the new C:SM comes out. Then we might see belly aching again just like last time because SM will get the same or something better. Hopefully it will not happen.

 

I think we'll be okay on this front, honestly.  In terms of vehicles, there is a bunch of wonky and weird DA speeders/flyers that the C:SM won't get (or will get their own versions of).  As for everything else, I think that the inclusion of Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Knights, and Deathwing/Ravenwing Command Squads alone will differentiate us; not to mention the unique composition of Ravenwing and the ability to have Terminators score.  I guess if there are any DA players out there who don't run Termies or Bikes or DA vehicles at all they might end up grumpy.

 

I feel you though, I was a DA player back in the day and after the C:SM codex came out I eventually switched over.  Couldn't for the life of me make my 5-man Deathwing Terminator scoring units live through the game.  It's a big part of why I have always tried to run 7 or more terminators, honestly.  But I think GW will look after us!  

[Nemo vas Varya]

I love my Dark Angels. The fluff is awesome, and if you branch out of the Dark Angel chapter, and into the successors, the legion building, etc... you get so many amazing options. (My 'army' is a combination of the Dark Angel Chapter and a Successor chapter working together as one list.)

 

I started as Ravenwing, but with the new codex, I couldn't help but embrace the glory that is an Azrael lead mixed wing.

 

Most of my local games are 2500 points, and I run two FOCs because I like HQs (everything else is actually within bounds of a single FOC) Two tactical squads, with a company master, and Azrael each babysitting one, then two devestator squads, each with their own librarian, one dev is 4x plasma, the other is 2 LC, 2 MLw/Flakk, and then 2 RAS with 2x Flamers, Darkshroud, 2x MM Speeders, 2x Termie squads with AC, and podded Dread with AC or PC. It is just beautiful. Brutal, beautiful, and deadly.

 

Yeah you could do a similar list with anyother chapter, but with none of the flavor, and utter weight of shooting that the Dark Angels excel at bringing to the table. The mobility of the bikes, and the brutality of Deathwing Assault. Vengeful Strike for that first landing of the terminators.

 

If you can not tell, I love my angels. (And am proud of them, murdered TWO riptides in a single turn last night before the things even managed a single kill.) My guard still outshoots my Angels, but the Angels shooting is close, very close, and the difficulty in taking out chunks of the shooting, and the mobility of even a primarily footslogging force has annoyed my opponents more then my tank heavy guard lists.

[Upstartes]

It is too bad that the Landspeeder Vengeance, Nephilim, and Dark Talon aren't good enough for people to take them regularly. They certainly won't show up in C:SM, but if no one is using them, then they won't differentiate us on the battlefield.

 

However, I'm confident that C:SM won't get banners as cool as our sacred standards, they won't get elite bikers like the Black Knights, and I'm hopeful that the won't get terminators as troops nor anything like Deathwing Assault. So DA will have those things. The terminator-heavy army will still be a solid DA thing, and our bike-heavy armies will have a different character from SM bike armies. Greenwing will look a lot like C:SM, but sacred of devastation will be a Greenwing build unavailable to C:SM.

 

An interesting question is: will C:SM get the cooler items from our wargear list? Powerfield Generator is a unique DA thing right now. I hope C:SM doesn't get that. Likewise conversion & displacer field. I could see an argument that C:SM should get these, but I can also see an argument that the 1st Legion has done a better job of holding on to some of the really old gadgets. I hope for the latter.

[twopounder]

Not knights templar, arthurian knights.

As for the command squads: have you seen the Sacred Standards?

In general, the Standards of Devastation and Fortitude seem to be the most popular ones.

 

The DA rank structure is based on the Knight Templar. They are a secretive order with many arcane and hidden ceremonies. They're fearless (Knight Templars were forbidden from retreating unless the enemy was more than 3x their own number, and even then only a high ranking knight could order a withdraw) and a portion of the Knight Templars turned against their brothers (sound familiar?). Also, they were landless knights with many monasteries for worship and recruitment around Europe (sound familiar again?). Both are referred to as warrior monks and are highly religious in addition to being skilled soldiers.

 

Black Templars basically got the left overs. Someone at GW probably wanted to expand on the theme, but DA were already set with their background. BT received the impetuous nature and vows (though vows that Knight Templar took are already taken by almost every marine chapter, and DA are the closest to using vows of silence of any chapter). The closest DA come to Arthurian knights is the whole questing from the early days of the Order. 

[Azoriel]

Well, there's also the sleeping king who will return at the hour of greatest need (Arthur/Lion), who was betrayed by his best friend (Lancelot/Luther), and the whose broken sword that must be mended to set things aright (excalibur/lion sword).

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

They could also be a jolly mix of concepts and little things, rather than a carbon copy of one thing in particular. Indeed, for a while the Legion suffered from excess of influences.

[Onisuzume]

Well, there's also the sleeping king who will return at the hour of greatest need (Arthur/Lion), who was betrayed by his best friend (Lancelot/Luther), and the whose broken sword that must be mended to set things aright (excalibur/lion sword).

Yeah, that was what I was hinting at.

They could also be a jolly mix of concepts and little things, rather than a carbon copy of one thing in particular. Indeed, for a while the Legion suffered from excess of influences.

Native american ones, for example.

The DA rank structure is based on the Knight Templar. They are a secretive order with many arcane and hidden ceremonies. They're fearless (Knight Templars were forbidden from retreating unless the enemy was more than 3x their own number, and even then only a high ranking knight could order a withdraw) and a portion of the Knight Templars turned against their brothers (sound familiar?). Also, they were landless knights with many monasteries for worship and recruitment around Europe (sound familiar again?). Both are referred to as warrior monks and are highly religious in addition to being skilled soldiers.

Personally, I'd say they're more like the Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem.

With the Black HereticsTemplars being more like the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon instead.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Am I the only one that found the excess of inspirational sources an in-character, visual way to hide the true face of the Chapter behind many "true faces"? :S

[twopounder]

I didn't know "don't be silly" was inflammatory

Well, there's also the sleeping king who will return at the hour of greatest need (Arthur/Lion), who was betrayed by his best friend (Lancelot/Luther), and the whose broken sword that must be mended to set things aright (excalibur/lion sword).

True, except for Excalibur, which was never broken in the original stories. It was returned to the Lady of the Lake.

Well, there's also the sleeping king who will return at the hour of greatest need (Arthur/Lion), who was betrayed by his best friend (Lancelot/Luther), and the whose broken sword that must be mended to set things aright (excalibur/lion sword).

Yeah, that was what I was hinting at.

>They could also be a jolly mix of concepts and little things, rather than a carbon copy of one thing in particular. Indeed, for a while the Legion suffered from excess of influences.

Native american ones, for example.

The DA rank structure is based on the Knight Templar. They are a secretive order with many arcane and hidden ceremonies. They're fearless (Knight Templars were forbidden from retreating unless the enemy was more than 3x their own number, and even then only a high ranking knight could order a withdraw) and a portion of the Knight Templars turned against their brothers (sound familiar?). Also, they were landless knights with many monasteries for worship and recruitment around Europe (sound familiar again?). Both are referred to as warrior monks and are highly religious in addition to being skilled soldiers.

Personally, I'd say they're more like the Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem.
With the Black HereticsTemplars being more like the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon instead.

Even GW refers to them as "warrior monks" which is how the 1st and 2nd orders of the Catholic church were referred to. But GW also has a problem with deciding who is the most devout of the imperial armies. IG have prayers and faith, space marines are genetically engineered to be walking deities of the emperor himself. Grey Knights channel power to excise demons and Sisters of Battle are a militant arm of the church, but are the only army with "faithful" units that channel power from the emperor himself.

So which ones are the real warrior monks?