Word Bearers: cowards, dupes or something else?

[Ecritter]

In the simplist of terms (as others have said), Lorgar and his Legion needed something to believe in ... something to fight for.  The Emperor told them flat out not to worship him, so what were they to do.  They had the inherent need to worship someone.  Chaos was more the willing to be worshiped, and told them so.

 

Cowards .... never

Duped .... maybe

Something Else .... there's always something else

 

Just remember they walked into the waiting arms of Chaos with their eyes wide open, knowing what it would mean to them and the Imperium.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Relativism ain't my cup of tea. :P

I think there is a supreme, universal truth, and even if we can't get to it, we should try to come closer to it in everything. That is how we could hope to achieve wisdom. And that is how I try to live.

Morality blurs things quite a lot (that's why I don't have any ! :)), but I strongly believe in an absolute truth. So perceptions are irrelevent to what things really are.

EDIT : But perceptions are relevent to who people really are. What do they value most, what is their moral background and so on !

Except that thought is perception-based and beliefs are normative, by definition.

 

You're straying very close to stating an oxymoron there V ;)

[Vesper]

I don't have the pedantry to know the truth in everything. Staying humble and respecting the idea that there could be other ways to consider things is part of a healthy social behaviour. I could've said that I'm convinced that there's a universal truth and that Universalism is logically the answer to the global understanding of the world and our relation with reality, but I would've sounded like a douche.

It happens to me all the time .

EDIT : Typos.

[Marshal Rohr]

Didn't someone say courage (by extension bravery) is simply being afraid but doing the right thing anyway?

 

 

Right is the relative part, not doing what you think is right, that is never relative and that is courage. 

 

If the Word Bearers were convinced that following Chaos was right, then it would've been cowardly not to do it. 

[blackoption]

To me, the Word Bearers still represent some of the worst traits in humanity. Even more so after ADB's writing (Don't get me wrong, I loved the stories, and they made me hate Lorgar and his legion even more). To answer the OP, I would say something worse. But they are also perhaps the height of irony in the 40K universe.

 

In an earlier post, someone made the comment that Lorgar would rather pay heed to an ugly truth than blind ignorance. However, I find him also to be profoundly hypocritical on the fact he claims to be the one searching for truth. Lorgar wrote both holy books for the Imperium and Chaos.  The Emperor ruthlessly suppressed the notion that he was a god. He never claimed or even wanted to approach that mantle.  Lorgar put him on that pedistal. He may not have been the first to do so, but he was the impetus behind the Lecto Divinicatus.  He was the one to establish the lie that the Emperor was a god.

 

And the Emperor rebukes him for it. The Emperor orders the Ultramarines to destroy the Word Bearers greatest achievement in worshiping and establishing the concept of the "GodEmperor".  Lorgar claims to wants truth, but when the truth is presented to him (that the emperor is not a god and that gods have no place in the secular imperium), Lorgar's wounded pride (maybe he just wanted to feel he was super special by being the son of a god) caused him to reject this truth.  Rather than embrace it, he sought to prove he was right by proving that their were indeed gods and he would force a place for them into the galaxy. Lorgar had to hold on to the foundation of faith. So he forced his version of the truth on the Imperium.

 

To me, the opening words of the Book of Lorgar do nothing to dissuade me of this view. Lorgar's pride had to be right, and he would be willing to burn a galaxy to make it so.

 

Erebus and Kor Phearon strike me as  your typical megolmaniac villians. While I hate them, they pale in compairson to Lorgar in my book. The only person worse then Lorgar was Argel Tal.  That was a man who knew what he was doing was wrong, but did not have the moral conviction to make a stand to do what is right.  I, for one, was glad at his fate.

 

But isn't that the point of 40k? To have a setting where there man's traits are pulled to such extremes that it must fight itself in order to regain balance.

 

ABD's work so far has been outstanding. I didn't think it was possible for me to hate that legion any more then I already have. I can't wait to read more.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

So the Emperor said he wasn't a god, but to Lorgar that was just humility - in his mind what else do you call an immortal warrior genius scientist who also happens to be the greatest Psyker in Human history? And the Emperor let him worship for 150 years until suddenly, with no warning, having his least favourite brother and his psychic adviser/regent destroy his greatest monument and tell him he was wrong - to Lorgar the sting is great because his father, who seems to love Horus and Guilliman and always spent time with them, can't even care enough for him to deliver the punishment in person.

 

After this he finds the gods of the Old Faith, who paint for him am image of the universe remade - all of Mankind is united in the worship of The Four, who take a direct influence in the lives of their followers, and this act will wipe off the blood of all the billions Lorgar killed who were worshipping real gods.

 

Lorgar was not weak because he needed faith, but the gods exploited his faith during his moment of weakness. Imagine you're a Christian in Europe during the Black Death, or a Muslim in modern Afghanistan. You are already devout and have been all of your life, then your village is wiped out by the sickness or your children are killed during a drone attack. You doubt, and you want to know why and how you can make things right and suddenly your god appears to you and tells you how to make things right, how to bring peace. In that moment you'll do anything, no matter what it takes - and if later you regret it, it's often too late to change.

[blackoption]

So the Emperor said he wasn't a god, but to Lorgar that was just humility - in his mind what else do you call an immortal warrior genius scientist who also happens to be the greatest Psyker in Human history? And the Emperor let him worship for 150 years until suddenly, with no warning, having his least favourite brother and his psychic adviser/regent destroy his greatest monument and tell him he was wrong - to Lorgar the sting is great because his father, who seems to love Horus and Guilliman and always spent time with them, can't even care enough for him to deliver the punishment in person.

 

After this he finds the gods of the Old Faith, who paint for him am image of the universe remade - all of Mankind is united in the worship of The Four, who take a direct influence in the lives of their followers, and this act will wipe off the blood of all the billions Lorgar killed who were worshipping real gods.

 

Lorgar was not weak because he needed faith, but the gods exploited his faith during his moment of weakness. Imagine you're a Christian in Europe during the Black Death, or a Muslim in modern Afghanistan. You are already devout and have been all of your life, then your village is wiped out by the sickness or your children are killed during a drone attack. You doubt, and you want to know why and how you can make things right and suddenly your god appears to you and tells you how to make things right, how to bring peace. In that moment you'll do anything, no matter what it takes - and if later you regret it, it's often too late to change.

My view is that Lorgar should have called the Emperor what he wanted to be called... Human. Maybe Lorgar did honestly view that statement as humility, but it still strikes me as willful delusion because he clung to the threads of his own belief rather than accept the secular/Imperial Truth despite evidence and instruction to the contrary.

 

I never said, not was it my intent to call Lorgar weak.  I am stating why I hate him and why I think he is hypocritical in his statement that he merely seeks the truth.  To me, his actions state that he was seeking to prove himself right and actions speak to me louder then words ever could.

 

Ironically, he did end up making his father a god after all (though maybe not in the same sense)...

But I still hate him for it.

[Wade Garrett]

Best summation of the state of 40k I've read to date:

 

"How did it come to this? Fighting ignorance and slavery with genoicide...we must be on the wrong side."

 

"How can you say that?"

 

"Because both sides are wrong."

 

(Bonus points! Was this said by an Imperial, a Chaos worshipper, or Commander Farsight?)

 

One might just easily say the Imperial Fists are cowards and dues, so pathological in their need for a chain of command that they prop up the reign of the greatest tyranny in the history of life (the last, best hope of humanity?) and in their blindness prevent the human race's ascension (corruption? destruction?) through symbiosis with the Hidden Gods.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

The Word Bearers had been betrayed and spat on by the Emperor and all of their brothers for their faith in the Emperor, when faith was an inherent part of who they are. For Lorgar it was even worse - he had killed thousands, if not millions, on his home world for following the Old Faith, and had put a hundred other worlds to flame for their similar religions. Then he discovered that the Old Faith was real - the chaos gods existed. So as well as being humiliated by his least favourite brother in the ashes of his greatest achievement on the orders of a father he had worshipped as a god (an act which shattered Lorgars world because it revealed to him that the Emperor was blind to his sons and thus not a god) he also has to deal with the guilt of putting billions to death for being right where he was wrong. In this fragile state the Chaos Gods whisper to him, and he decides to set humanity on the right path - the path of the gods. Regrettably that will mean genocide and regicide, but Lorgar now knows that these deaths will wash away the mistakes of the old, because they will be for real gods.

 

A lot of people think that the Word Bearers are weak because they see the Chaos Gods and blindly worship them because they like praying, but that's inaccurate - the Chaos Gods lied, hid the worst of their nature from Lorgar and his so s until it was too late, and gave them what they needed: a path to redemption, ironically - the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

yep adds to what i was trying to say more briefly.  Lorgar had good intentions, not to say he wasnt flawed, but he was lied to and thus took teh path to damnation unintentionally.

 

And let's not forget a little hint of personal power mongering from influential individuals in the Legion helped push the Word Bearers, together with their Primarch, down the path of dark glory.

 

>.> Erebus - i hate that punk

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

So the Emperor said he wasn't a god, but to Lorgar that was just humility - in his mind what else do you call an immortal warrior genius scientist who also happens to be the greatest Psyker in Human history? And the Emperor let him worship for 150 years until suddenly, with no warning, having his least favourite brother and his psychic adviser/regent destroy his greatest monument and tell him he was wrong - to Lorgar the sting is great because his father, who seems to love Horus and Guilliman and always spent time with them, can't even care enough for him to deliver the punishment in person.

 

After this he finds the gods of the Old Faith, who paint for him am image of the universe remade - all of Mankind is united in the worship of The Four, who take a direct influence in the lives of their followers, and this act will wipe off the blood of all the billions Lorgar killed who were worshipping real gods.

 

Lorgar was not weak because he needed faith, but the gods exploited his faith during his moment of weakness. Imagine you're a Christian in Europe during the Black Death, or a Muslim in modern Afghanistan. You are already devout and have been all of your life, then your village is wiped out by the sickness or your children are killed during a drone attack. You doubt, and you want to know why and how you can make things right and suddenly your god appears to you and tells you how to make things right, how to bring peace. In that moment you'll do anything, no matter what it takes - and if later you regret it, it's often too late to change.

 

this is why i say that the emp was certainly at fault in the heresy, since he failed as a father.  he let the primarchs become divided and in a way blinded himself to it.  that said, Erebus was still mostly to blame for starting it.

[Wade Garrett]

Erebus:

I'm sorry, I can't hear your whining over the sound of how awesome it is to be the Hand of Destiny, the Seer of Ten Thousand Futures, the one uniquely illuminated by the Dark Gods to shape events according to their plan.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me,I just have to kill off the right people on our side because the gods totally showed me that when I do that, we'll win at Terra. And they would never lie to the Hand of Destiny etc. etc. because I am special like that.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

lol yea he was pretty confident

[blackoption]

Best summation of the state of 40k I've read to date:

 

"How did it come to this? Fighting ignorance and slavery with genoicide...we must be on the wrong side."

 

"How can you say that?"

 

"Because both sides are wrong."

 

(Bonus points! Was this said by an Imperial, a Chaos worshipper, or Commander Farsight?)

 

That was a conversation between Khârn and Argel Tal. 

[Wade Garrett]

As for the Emperor wanting to be seen as just a human...this would be why he revealed himself to the Priests of Mars as the Omnissiah, foretold avatar of the Machine God?

 

Strange that Lorgar is regarded as deluded for worshipping the Emperor as divine when the Great Crusade runs on a huge organization worshipping the Emperor as divine.

 

Edit:

Blackoption got it...but it really could fit into a conversation between members of almost any faction in 40k. Well, not Tyranids or Orkz I suppose.

[blackoption]

As for the Emperor wanting to be seen as just a human...this would be why he revealed himself to the Priests of Mars as the Omnissiah, foretold avatar of the Machine God?

 

Strange that Lorgar is regarded as deluded for worshipping the Emperor as divine when the Great Crusade runs on a huge organization worshipping the Emperor as divine.

 

 

Politics would be my bet. It was politically advantageous at the time to play of Mars' beliefs in order to get what he needed.

 

But the relationship between The Emperor and Mars is not the same as is the relationship with The Emperor and one of his sons. And while claims that the Emperor was the true cause of the heresy hold no weight with me, I will acknowledge that he was probably not the best father.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

apoth vaddon - excellent name

anyway, if you have not already, i would highly recommend reading the HH books involving the WBs to a significant extent. they shed a lot of light on the motivations of Lorgar and his legion in siding with Chaos. also the words of the Book of Lorgar, well what little we have access to, are pieces of Lorgar's beliefs on Chaos and his motivation.

but to provide some basic info now, the WB were motivated more by their hunt for "the truth" - the existence of gods. they believed that the emp and imperium had lied to them and mistreated them. Erebus, the real Arch-Traitor, used this and his own lust for power to lead his primarch and legion to Chaos over the course of many years. the WB were more easily swayed because they were known to swing between extremes, which was their great weakness.

back when I signed up in '08, I think it was, that Apothecary from DC was the only name on my mind, besides Garviel Loken, which was already taken, ha.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

vaddon is pretty cool

[Antarius]

I think the most appealing thing about 30/40K is that there is room for vastly different perspectives on the same issues. That's why I'm still interested in the lore and the game after 20 years.

 

That's the beauty of it, really. When I'm playing my Chaos d00dz, I know in my heart that the Emperor is a rotting corpse and that the Imperium is a corrupt tyranny. When I'm playing my loyalists, Hell no! The Imperium is mankinds only hope and defence against the terrors of the warp, the Emperor is the greatest man that ever lived and his will continues to guide us to this day.

 

I think one valid interpretations of the WB are that they always were and still are people with strong utopian beliefs; they have a vision for a better world and they'll do anything to bring that vision about.

For example, my own Word Bearers (that I've written quite a bit about, geek that I am) are absolutely convinced that they're doing the right thing. Not only that, but their commander is one of the few positive guys in 40K, even as he unleashes Daemons, zombie plagues and genocide on several planets he's not at all in doubt that he's doing good. But enough about my geekery...

[Schultzhoffen]

Some interesting and insightful comments about courage. When I was a young man we were taught a form of extreme patriotism at school. We were taught to value the sacrifice our ancestors had made in battle. We were taught the old lie: "Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori". I believed this...for a time. Now, 20 years later, displaced from my country of birth, I have not believed this for many years. I do know that all I'd fight, kill and die for is my family. As to what I think courage is. I believe it is the struggle against fate. Simply meekly accepting that fate because it's "the will of the gods" strikes me as particularly spineless.. "Winning" or "losing" are relative concepts here. It depends what your aims are, I guess.

 

As for ambiguity, I don't think 40k is ambiguous at all. There are no good guys. There are only shades of black. The way I interpret it, however, is that the Emperor's brand of evil was required for the survival of Mankind (at least in some type of normal way, after all not all planets are hellholes resembling Orwell's "1984").

 

So where does this leave the WB? Perhaps I shouldn't look at them and expect a human reaction from inhuman meat machines bred for war. Perhaps their insanity is as justified as the atrocities committed by loyalist marines on a thousand worlds in the name of the Imperium. Perhaps I'm simply bemused that their indoctrination failed so readily. Then again, it seems as if all the Legions were flawed from the start. This possibly backs up the theory that they were meant to be discarded in the end after all.

 

The delicious irony.

[Antarius]

Well, I can't force you around to my way of thinking, of course (not yet...) but think of it like this: the WB believe what they are doing is morally right, so they can't be cowards. Any way you slice it, it takes some big ones to rebel against everything you've fought for so far and thrust the entire galaxy into civil war.

 

They may well be deluded though (although again, that's a matter of perspective and the answer is hardly set in stone).

[blackoption]

I still believe it is merely Lorgar's wounded pride that caused all this. Some people can't just admit the fact that they were wrong.

[RapatoR]

Lorgar was right. He had povoen that Imperial truth is a lie.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Lorgar was right. He had povoen that Imperial truth is a lie.

The thing is, that doesn't make him right in his actions. Lies can be noble. Lies can save people.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Lorgar was right. He had povoen that Imperial truth is a lie.

The thing is, that doesn't make him right in his actions. Lies can be noble. Lies can save people.

In universe Word Bearer rant:

 

"I have always been somewhat skeptical whenever I heard those in power speak of the nobility and salvation found in keeping their inferiors in a state of blind ignorance."

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

It's an age old question - is it better that people die knowing the truth or is a comforting lie better? Ask an Inquisitor and they'd say that a comforting lie is all that keeps the citizens of the Imperium from tearing each other apart in fear, but the Word Bearers would argue that when Mankind knows the truth, even if it means billions die, the 'liberated' are made stronger.