Chaos Terminators - To MoT, or not to MoT?

[Monolythic]

Hey all,

 

So Im in the process of building my Ksons list and Im really enjoying how they play and especially the fluff and look. But I have found myself wishing I had a little bit more high strength/low AP action in the list. It seems to me that Termies are fine way to come by this.

 

Running them in 2 squads of 3 seems like I could avoid the saturation fire famously directed at larger units, but would still afford me the flexability and pop I am looking for.

 

Accordingly, I was looking for some insight as to how you all use the termies, if you do at all in your Ksons lists, and whether you all believe the MoT is worth it to give them that lovely 4++?

 

Cheers!!

[Ethrion]

I usually have one unit of around 5 or 6 and I do give them the mark of Tzeentch for the 4++ I reckon it's worth it. They seem to avoid being targetted specifically because there is so much other nasty stuff arrayed around them...rubric squads, daemons, obliterators, dreadnoughts and waves of cultists to muddy the waters!

[Gondlir the Wandbearer]

I have a unit of 9 Tzeentch terminators in my 1K Sons army. I first included them when the 3.5 Codex allowed for Rubric terminators (and the MoT for Rubrics gave +1 wound). Those were *nasty*.

It's quite a chunk of points, but boy do they cause people fits.

[zyl-]

Here's the deal with MoT on terminators. It does nothing to make them more durable vs mass attacks, which the mark of nurgle does do. However, the mark of nurgle does nothing to help vs plasma, melta, or las shots, which the MoT does help with. Since we have only 1 wound terminators, no worries on double toughness. So if you think your terminators are likely to be hit by heavy weapons, MoT ftw. However, vs 50+ dakka attacks, just forget it. The 1k sons in general have the same problem.

[Ethrion]

Here's the deal with MoT on terminators. It does nothing to make them more durable vs mass attacks, which the mark of nurgle does do. However, the mark of nurgle does nothing to help vs plasma, melta, or las shots, which the MoT does help with. Since we have only 1 wound terminators, no worries on double toughness. So if you think your terminators are likely to be hit by heavy weapons, MoT ftw. However, vs 50+ dakka attacks, just forget it. The 1k sons in general have the same problem.

Quite right. I would say (from my point of view) that most people target terminators with plasma guns and cannons so 4++ does help but again it's only a 50/50. But having T5 terminators does mean that anyone attempting to deal with them with standard weaponry really struggles. It just seems that the difference between 4+ to wound and 5+ to wound is so much of an impact.

[*Furyou Miko]

I've boltered down Nurgle terminators on more occasions than I can now remember. The weapons I really love to use are Exorcists, however, which hate storm shields... I imagine that MoT will have a similar effect.

[Ethrion]

Oh for sure, I don't mean to say it becomes next to impossible to kill them with MoN but when you factor in 3s to hit, 5s to wound or 4s and 6s followed by the 2+ it just comes across better than 3s or 4s to hit then 2s to wound (from plasma etc) and then the 4++ 50/50

 

Maybe it's just me but I hate trying to wound T5 stuff with bolters or las guns :(

[zyl-]

The reason MoN ends up being statistically more effective is because of the volume of attacks it negates in practice. Autoguns on cultists: 60 shots, 30 hit, 5 wound or 60 shot, 30 hit, 10 wound. You feel so much better throwing 5 2+ saves than you do 10.. and for good reason .83 unsaved vs 1.66 unsaved. For plasma marines, let's say 4 shots per unit. The averages don't show up as well here since it comes to 1.48 and 1.11 unsaved wounds.

 

I know you all know this, but it's just sometimes helpful to see numbers.. or it makes me feel better.

[Monolythic]

The reason MoN ends up being statistically more effective is because of the volume of attacks it negates in practice. Autoguns on cultists: 60 shots, 30 hit, 5 wound or 60 shot, 30 hit, 10 wound. You feel so much better throwing 5 2+ saves than you do 10.. and for good reason .83 unsaved vs 1.66 unsaved. For plasma marines, let's say 4 shots per unit. The averages don't show up as well here since it comes to 1.48 and 1.11 unsaved wounds.

 

I know you all know this, but it's just sometimes helpful to see numbers.. or it makes me feel better.

I'm a big fan of math hammer... like all statistics it is tremendously useful in understanding a discussion. That said, and you'll agree, they don't tell the whole story.

 

Marks of N and T are tremendous in a lot of ways, but in my opinion they serve primarily to only shift target prioritization. As was said before MoT > MoN vs. AP 1/2. as such, most savvy opponent will shift that weaponry onto the MoN termies as opposed to "small arms fire". In the same way, players are less willing to blow their heavy support shots on MoT when less than half will actually wound.  It's the tactical possisioning of the units that optimizes their effectiveness and limits their vulnerability and then the Math plays. I think we can all agree we're happy to put MoN termies in from of a blob squad and MoT termies in front of a dev squad.

 

That said, the question here is not so much MoN v. MoT as it is, "In a Tzeentch army, do you bring MoT termies, or put those points into something else?"

 

So far I'm of the opinion that under 2K, the termies stay in the box.

[berzerkermike84]

i have over 40 terms. 20 with shooty and 20 with lighting claws. 

[Tenebris]

Since we are on a TSons forum we should try to see where the terminators might get some use.

 

As a TSons player you probably have to deliver your cult troops into range with some Rhinos and you can count on solid AP3, marine killing weapons, thus your terminators have to cover other niches. Combiflamer terminators can be a solid stopgap unit when you fight hordes, they will die, that is certain,... but between several flamers and 2+ you have some chance to stop an enemy melee horde in its tracks for a turn. Combiplasma terminators are somehow of a question, your basic TSons can kill marines and I would advise you to bring other AP 2 weapons and not count on your terminators for that, following combimelta terminators can be a good investment in an army that lacks vehicle killers overall.

 

A MoT terminator is also a great unit to counter power weapon squads like Grey Knights. Deep strike them nearby, fire in the first turn and assault in the next one. The 4++ should last a bit longer against all those power weapons, especially the axes with AP2 ever more present nowdays. Your terminators withm MoT can be quite a nightmare for all this TH/SS spam or the now common Deathwing Knights. 

 

Have you considered to give MoT to Obliterators and Mutilators? They might be an even better investment than the terminators. 

 

Since you have come here with the question on MoT, my short answer would be no, unless you see a lot of power axes/fist/halberds...yadda yadda... But it can be better spent on Mutilators and Obliterators which will provide your army with more utility. 

[zyl-]

My quick opinion would be yes, actually.

 

Now I would like to qualify the statement to say that after I think about it for a while, I'll probably say no, but here's why a quick gut feeling = yes to me. Heavy weapons are already essentially wasted firing at your 1ksons since they are all 4++, so the logical thing an opponent might move to is heavy weapons on the terminators leaving the small arms to focus on the more vulnerable marines. Obviously I'm thinking of armies with little to no armor where heavy weapons probably have no other priority targets, so terminators would be the better answer. If the terminators end up more vulnerable to heavy weapons than the basic marines, of course heavy weapons will take their shots at the terminators.

[Marshal Goderic]

When using a TS army, an opponent will see lots of 4+ inv, when all other saves are equal (what to shoot with this lovely plamagun?) an opponent will shoot the most dangerous thing  which will often be the termies where the 4+ will serve them better than the MoN. That being said someone mentioned the low AP vs massed dakka which is completely valid. In my xp opponents always shoot termies with low AP over dakka so I always go MoT.

 

Oblits I think are a different story, the T5 vs heavy weapons I have found more useful than the better save, I'll put my Oblits in good cover if possible with MoN so they can only be inta-gibbed by vindis.

[Brother Ambroz]

Dakka for me, MoT termies die just as quickly. I usually keep a squad of MoS CSM in the backfield to handle late game backfield arrivals and they've taken down termies quite a few times. Just a few bolter rounds and then charge. Works pretty well most of the time, just weight of fire from bolters and I5 CC attacks.

 

That being said, MoT termies are pretty fluffy but at the same time they're a huge chunk of points. If I were playing TS I'd just use unmarked termies personally.

[Fibonacci]

On the surface, they both shift survivability 16.5%. One from being harder to wound and the other from better saves.

 

I think it all comes down to local meta. What are you being shot with? Any weapon that bypasses the 2+ armor is also wounding on a 2+ no matter if you have T4 or T5. In CC, you will see some benifit from MoN against power axes, IG with fists and the like. But in the end I don't hink there is enough of an advantage one to the other for it to make a difference. Since MoT is 1 point cheaper, that's the way I go if I even bother with a mark at all.

[Xenith]

2+ armour protects from small arms fire.

T5 protects from small arms fire.

Invun save protects from what termies are weak against, plasma and anti tank.

 

Make them 'good' defensively against what they are weak at, give them MoT. And endurance if you can.