Thinking of Jumpers

[Jolemai]

Normally I play a hybrid/light mech list, however I have been thinking about trying a jump heavy/troop heavy force at around 1850 points to be a little different.

 

The staple options are one Librarian, one Priest and two RAS, but then what?

 

Ideally I want to enhance this so I've been thinking of a Furioso Librarian (Shield and to eat Overwatch fire) and either Death Company or Sanguinary Guard in the "second rank" of troops. I guess it would also be worth purchasing Lemartes/Reclusiarch/Chaplain or Dante to supplement it's respective option. Certainly a Stormraven is a necessity and good arguments can be made for the inclusion of Attack Bikes with Multi Meltas and Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters.

 

But then what? What, in this edition goes well with these?

 

1-2 more RAS?

A large squad of bikes?

A large squad of Terminators?

A firebase of Devastators, Tacticals and possibly a Dreadnought and/or Whirlwind?

 

Or do I just forget the idea and put it behind an AV13 wall?

 

Overall I'm just curious as to your experience using jump troops/regular troops in this edition and it would be much appreciated.

[sockwithaticket]

A dakka Baal supports jump troops pretty well.

[I am Legion]

How about a mass saturation of assault marines a single tactical for objectives and 3 Dev squads with missiles? No fliers even! But you'll need something to deal with fliers. Maybe 3 aegis with quad guns and stick the devs in there.

[StJude]

A dakka Baal supports jump troops pretty well.

 

I second this, at least two, not for spam purposes, but for space reasons.

 

However, this fits my infantry/flyer heavy meta. Might be different for you, what sorts of things are you up against?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Excellent thread! Saves me having to open one This whole past week I have actually been running some lists that are distinctly "5th Edition Flavored."

1850: Lib, 40 ASM, 2 Priests, 6 Attack Bikes, 15 Devastators

2000: Lib, 40 ASM, 2 Priests, 6 Attack Bikes, 10 DC in Pod, 5 SangGuard

2000: Lib, 30 ASM, 3 Attack Bikes, 2 Baals, 1 AC/LC Pred, 1 Raven, 1 Furioso, 10 DC in Pod

As a prominent note, I haven't nor wouldn't run this list style versus 2+ Heldrakes. My local area is very Flyer-light, but recently several players have been upping their air forces. However, a solid chunk of players in my local area also play Tau, so the accelerating Flyer-isms probably won't ever take off (lol puns).

I do have to say, running mass-Jumpers has been extremely fun reliving glory days back when it was full-competitive. It would be pretty ballsy to show up to a tournament with a build like this but for local shop pickup games I've been having fun with it. A simple swap of SangGuard for Mephiston does a lot to improve that first 2k list, but still wouldn't say its anything more than semi-competitive.

Got to go, more later on my actual tabletop experiences

[Paulochromis]

1850: Lib, 40 ASM, 2 Priests, 6 Attack Bikes, 15 Devastators

2000: Lib, 40 ASM, 2 Priests, 6 Attack Bikes, 10 DC in Pod, 5 SangGuard

2000: Lib, 30 ASM, 3 Attack Bikes, 2 Baals, 1 AC/LC Pred, 1 Raven, 1 Furioso, 10 DC in Pod

To what extent are these influenced by your available models, as opposed to ideals, e.g. only own 1 raven?

In other words, assuming we're talking about pure C:BA lists, if you could field any C:BA unit what would be your ideal list of this 'style', at 2000 pts?

[Ushtarador]

Haha CAG, those lists surely will catch some people off guard ^^ Personally, I almost always run 2x10 ASM with priest as a core. I then usually add stuff from the following:

 

- Mephiston

- Stormraven

- Attack Bikes

- Baal Predators

- Fragiosos

- DC in Pod

 

Move the ASM up in a tight blob over one flank and cover the other with Mephiston and the Fragiosos. ASM are bad in cc, but if you have enough you will still win those close combats :P

[CitadelArmyGuy]

ASM aren't very impressive. We know this, because 6th Edition is the shooting Edition. 'Everyone' is talking about Shooting=King and for excellent, supported and substantiated reasons. More and more we are seeing focus shifting steadily towards shooters.

My question is this: At what point does that conventional wisdom tip over the balance? Where melee becomes so disregarded that ASM are staring down IG, Tau, and GK Henchmen without any other melee in site? A fairly silly rhetorical question, but only because certain Monstrous Creature builds (Daemons/Tyranids mostly) means ASM-heavy lists will always have those bad matchups. If MCs weren't in the game, BA would rule melee (in my humble opinion) because we have the mobility to pick our fights.

But when you are talking melee between Troops and just Troops, ASM are only bad versus:

• Grey Hunters
• Purifiers
• Daemonettes / Bloodletters
• BikerNobz / MegaNobz
• Nid-Warriors / Tervigons
• Berzerkers / PlagueMarines
• Terminator Troops

Grey Hunters used to be the most important item on that list. But with Wolves lacking a Flyer, I've seen less emphasis on SW now that I've seen in the past. Ditto GK, though they remain highly popular and usable (and will be for some time, since 6th Ed codicies have not been showing signs of Power Creep like in 5th). I've marked the popular or 'competitive' Troops in red, meaning the other items on the list aren't likely to be seen so their mismatch against ASM is less relevant.

That leaves only 6 Troop options that ASM won't like to melee and you will likely see in a comp/semicomp atmosphere. So in general, ASM can use melee to attack opposing Troops. Using Troops to destroy (not harass or attrition but outright destroy) opposing Troops is something of a novelty in 6th Ed. Usually Troops simply survive and score leaving the killing elements to other portions of the codex.

Massed Fast Infantry (ie ASM) are generally excellent Troops in matches versus DE, Eldar, IG, Necrons, Orks, SoB and Tau (notice the connection? Sweeping Advance). Versus IG and Tau, usually you can even keep Shield of Sanguinius on your Librarians since the Prescience won't be needed in melee (lol).

So basically ASM aren't quite as terribad as they seem, they are just unique in their preferred targets. Underpowered yes, I will agree with that and continue to emphasize it. But if you can lock-up an opponent who is truly bad at melee then you've got quite an edge. IG Blobs? I've literally "cleared the killzone" so that they couldn't even swing back with their Sarge-Axes (rerolling 3+ hits on charge then wounding on 2+ from FC ..... kills a lot of IG). My attackbikes usually absorb the overwatch to make sure the ASM get in there. Versus Orks, if you get the charge then they are only Str3 so once again 10 ASM will beat 30 Orks in a vacuum even before Force Multiplcation (kill 21 then Sweep them). Also, my ASM love to face Necrons. Sweeping Advance is a house against Crons but most things aren't fast enough to survive their firepower to reach them--- but ASM can do it. Outlier anecdote, I once had 3 ASM kill 2 Crons then sweeping advance the other 18 Warriors.

Which brings me to a good point-- ASM can be very effective at handling Light Infantry. Hordes have made a comeback due to the 6th Ed Fearless change and ASM are usually a match for hordes if properly employed.

[IK Viper]

I do expect to see the ASM squads coming back a little as more and more people move toward shooting at the expense of taking melee units, most armies I face right now do not even have a good counter charge unit to back up their gun line, getting there is the main problem :-(  If Heldrakes did not own PA so bad right now I think that 30 ASM supported by a Priest and 1-2 Furioso Librarians jumping accross the field would simply be to much for most lists to take, with combat squads the enemy is looking at 5-8 different units to deal with that will be on you turn 2, with FnP and Shield of Sang. at minimum, and if you can get Night Fight maybe more...  Sadly if you don't go first  against a Helldrake list you will take alot of cassualities and then even if you get there you had better stick for a turn before leaving combat or you will still get fried.  Also, long deployment basically screws you :-( 

 

One nice use of ASM that I am finding is combat squading the Melta guns into one Combat Squad and the Sgt into another, then DS the Melta after vehicles that are threatening and putting the other half in a Raven to come out and score late/assault a crap unit hiding in the back, usually in cover.  5 ASM can usually clean out or atleast tie up any deck chair unit, specially if they eat a round of Stormraven fire before the charge. 

 

The "Melta Bomb" squad does not always pay off but then again it can be great.  I usually go for the 6 inch Melta range with my DS but if you are on AV 10  (this is great vs Chimeras, AV 12/10/10) you are more then likely going to pen either way,  you can be a little more conservative with the DS placement.  I killed 2 Forge Fiends on turn 2 one time, I also took out a 2 vehicle squadron of Hydras with one squad once, many a Vindicator has fallen pray to this tactic b/c they have to move forward to shoot and it makes it easy to drop behind them and shoot into AV 10.  When doing this DON"T FORGET TO THROW A KRAK GRANADE!  Specially if your looking at AV 10, that granade can mean the last glance/pen that saves your squad from getting smoked next turn for DS next to that Leman Russ :-( 

 

The other great thing about the Melta AP1 is that if you do pen, which is not hard if you get in range, what ever you are shooting will only be able to shoot you back next turn 1/6 of the time b/c on a 4+ it dies, and on a roll of a 1 it is shaken, a 2 takes a weapon, you do not want that stupid 3 result b/c it immobilizes the vehicle which is dumb...

[knife&fork]

Combat squadding is almost always a good idea in 6th. Unfortunately you combatsquad when deploying, so you can't DS one half and have the other show up in a flyer. 

[Zynk Kaladin]

DON"T FORGET TO THROW A KRAK GRANADE!

Son of a bleepin' diddly... I forgot about the krak grenade. Ugh, its so obvious and I feel so stupid. Thanks for educating me.

How does it work for combat squads? Can each throw a grenade in 1 turn or, since they're originally part on the same squad, do I have to choose which combat squad throws it?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Combat squadding is almost always a good idea in 6th. Unfortunately you combatsquad when deploying, so you can't DS one half and have the other show up in a flyer.

You shouldn't Combat Squad when using Force Multiplication such as Priests though. Interestingly enough, Priests were central to my playstyle for the longest time but then I tried running without them and was pleasantly surprised at the freedom of maneuver opened up since I didn't care about 6" bubbles anymore. I think a well-rounded BA player should know how to play both with Priests and without Priests, and understand the costs and benefits to both playstyles.

 

As for the DoA for 1/2 and Raven for 1/2, I am sure probably a lot of rules-hashing anguish has already transpired on that topic. k&f if you happen to have link to a rules thread on it I'd greatly appreciate.... because as it stands, I thought it was totally legal.

 

From the BA FAQ:

You must decide which units are splitting into combat squads, and which models go into each combat squad, immediately before deployment. A unit split into combat squads therefore is now two separate units for all game purposes including calculating the total number of units in the army, and the number of units you can place in reserve. Then proceed with deployment as normal.

So in this case, the argument is whether the word deployment (in red) in the FAQ means the Deployment "demi-phase" or specifically just that/those Unit(s) deployment. When a Unit arrives from Reserves, the BRB uses the wording "player picks any of the units arriving and deploys it" -- This is the basis for the argument knife&fork is interpreting.

 

I would argue that throughout the BRB, Deployment is also used to describe an entire demi-phase of the Game. Furthermore, in this case the FAQ is referring to that "Deployment demi-phase" not the deployment of individual units. See page 124 paragraph 6:

"During deployment, when declaring which Units are kept as Reserves, the Player must clearly explain the organization of his Reserves to the other opponent."

So waiting until the ASM arrive to decide if they Combat Squad is the incorrect interpretation. Immediately before deployment [phase] (inserted word mine) you must decide which units are Squadding and which are not.

 

Other parts of the BRB that support Deployment as a phase of the game are Pages 121 and 424. Please note, the term 'phase' is never used in the BRB to describe deployment, I use the term for lack of a better one such as 'game setup step'

[IK Viper]

I agree with CAG and have always played it that way, that said I may very well be wrong, however it is my experience that long threads about rules interpretations often lead to people getting heated and I honesly don't feel like it today lol. 

 

About the Krak Granades, I think both squads can use one granade a piece because once you combat squad, the 2 units are their own unique squads, thus the "one granade per squad may be thrown" rule applies equally to both (every model has Krak and Frag, why would they not be able to?) 

 

About Sang. Priests:  I used to never play without them, now I don't even bother considering using one unless I am running expensive stuff (Terminators or Sang. Guard), or have atleast 20 ASM on the board as I do not feel that you get very much return on them otherwise.  I also disagree about needing to keep them in one squad when force multiplying.  I understand the point of keeping them togoether is to be able to string out squads and keep memebers within the bubble, I just feel that the target overload effect is more useful to me (Just my opinion, I know this is very debatable and often comes down to PLAYSTYLE)   

One thing I like about Shield of Sang. and the FnP/ FC bubbles is that they ar just that, BUBBLES, not targetted powers like Precience / Forewarning, etc. which are limited to effecting one unit at a time.  These bubble effects give you the flexabilibty to be able to EITHER combat squad, or stay together and benefit equally, where as with targetted buffs if you combat squad you are loosing half the effect of the power.  That said, I don't use priests much any more because both the USR's they give are not as good as they were and I play spread out so much that a bubble would only ever help one unit any way so I don't bother,  The stuff you can reliably throw an ASM at and expect to kill can still be taken out without a priest, the meaner stuff they avoid unless they have to and let my Mech/Air Support and Saint Celestine clean up (I play tournaments with SoB allies).   

[Brother Maikel]

DON"T FORGET TO THROW A KRAK GRANADE!

Son of a bleepin' diddly... I forgot about the krak grenade. Ugh, its so obvious and I feel so stupid. Thanks for educating me.

How does it work for combat squads? Can each throw a grenade in 1 turn or, since they're originally part on the same squad, do I have to choose which combat squad throws it?

To quote CAG's quote of the FAQ:

A unit split into combat squads therefore is now two separate units for

all game purposes...

Thus you don't have to keep track of which combat squads went with each other and threw a grenade. Only one model per unit (in the shooting phase) may toss a grenade, but since the units are separate for all game purposes, both halves can toss one.

For the record, my usual group hold with CAG's interpretation of the deployment rules.

[Calnus]

I like your list of troops that ASM fare poorly against CAG, but I'd like to point out one thing--Almost all of them are susceptible/prey to Mephiston. 

 

My personal answer to Plague Marines, Grey Hunters, Purifiers (halberd style, since hammers can be attritioned by ASM easier), Nobs (excepting mass PK), Tervigons (because of initiative), Nid Warriors and basically anything else with a 3+ and no invulnerable save has been Mephiston.  Blood Talons can work too, but not as reliably.  Meph on the other hand can and will nuke a Tervigon before it strikes (barring bad dice of course), and can shrug off return fire from anything else but Nemesis Hammers and Nob Power Klaws.

 

Sanguinary Guard would have a similar effect, but better against the large units of Nobs/Purifiers and worse against the 3+ armor MCs.  I have found that ASM, when backed up by a heavy hitter like Meph, can roll things in combat pretty reliably.  The problem in my mind has always been maintaining momentum, having enough bodies left to transition from a consolidate move either into another victorious combat or onto an objective and survive a turn or two without getting shot off.

[vahouth]

You know, I've seen people talk about how easy it is to nuke a tervigon with Mephiston, but why can't I seem to be able to pull that off? Last time I even lost him trying to do that. Shadow in the Warp is nasty...

[Ushtarador]

Mephi should easily trash a Tervigon even without psychic powers though.

[vahouth]

I can't see him passing 6 wounds on a 4+ without psychic powers easily...

or my rolls are THAT bad.

[Ushtarador]

Well, you'd most likely need more than 1 turn thats true ;)

[Brother Maikel]

You know, I've seen people talk about how easy it is to nuke a tervigon with Mephiston, but why can't I seem to be able to pull that off? Last time I even lost him trying to do that. Shadow in the Warp is nasty...

 

 

Its particularly difficult if the Tervigon has Iron Arm, which not only grants +d3 Toughness but also Eternal Warrior.  With up to 3 rolls on the chart per Tervigon its not terribly uncommon.

 

 

Edit:

Though I did recently play a game vs 'nids (battle report coming soon) where between two Tervi's, two Zoanthropes and a Flyrant (2 powers each), not one 'nid unit got Iron Arm or Endurance.  So its not guaranteed.

[tomjoad]

And if they don't get Iron Arm, they'll likely have the FNP/It Will Not Die power, which (as you may guess) also makes them difficult to kill if you can't get a Force Weapon hit off.

[Jolemai]

So basically using a list with jumpers these days is similar to using a mech list with less tanks...?