Night Lords Using Warp Talons and Raptors (fast attack issue

[Prot]

Just a quick question....

 

In 6th I haven't played any of these so I guess this is kind of an informal poll.

 

Trying to put together a potentially 'Night Lordy' list, I am stuck on HQ (would play DP but haven't got the points), and in 1500 I'm trying to fit in Warp Talons, and/or Raptors, and/or bikes.

 

The bikes I can sit. I know the bikes really work. I've played them a lot, but I really want to give the Raptors/Warp Talons a shot. I watched a video where Talons just annihilated a lot of squads that couldn't shoot them down in time.

 

Raptors are economical though, and are easier to mark, and they are flexible.

 

At 1500 pts what Night Lordish config would you attempt? I'm thinking 6 Raptors, Mark of Khorne. Plasma + Melta, and NO idea what to do with the champ (Votlw). Any ideas?

 

Also at 1500 pts, though much, much harder to add anything to is 6 Warp Talons. No toys, I tried the MoK but soo much more expensive here. I'm having trouble even just fitting 6 in my 1500 pt list, but I really wanted to go with full fast slots in this potential Night Lord list.  The third slot is currently occupied by the Heldrake w/Baleflamer.

 

Any thoughts?

[Sception]

Warp talons are very expensive, and good at exactly and only one thing - taking out marine infantry.  They are all but incapable of touching vehicles and 2+ save infantry, and while they can generally do decently against lighter infantry, you're spending way more points than you need to on that job, and lighter infantry can overwhelm warp talons with weight of attacks.  Even within their specialty they have issues.  If you have sufficient cover to make your way to melee without granting the enemy line of sight in the shooting phase (and you will always try to do this, because deep striking them is a trap), then you can generally take an overwatch and a round of striking last due to lack of grenades and still take out your target handily (assuming it's a 3+ or 4+ save target).  But if the enemy gets a bead on you, or if you suffer slightly more casualties than expected in the initial overwatch / assault, then you can find yourself without the numbers needed to take out even the targets you're specialized in killing.

 

If you can avoid getting shot and charge a preferred target out of cover, then you're golden, but that's rarely going to be the case (if there's enough cover to hide them on the way in, there's enough cover for your opponent to camp in it.

 

Because of this extreme vulnerability, Warp talons work best as a second wave.  Get your cultists or chaos marines or bikes or spawn or mauler or allied daemons or what have you into assault to soak up the overwatch at least, and then bring the warp talons in to finish off things that have been tied down.

 

Of course, that's a lot of pain, and a lot of work, to get some use out of a unit that is already a ton of points, very vulnerable, occupying a valuable fast slot, and only good against a very narrow band of potential threats - threats that aren't exactly the biggest problem for the rest of your list, anyway.  Still, if you run into a lot of elite marine infantry, it can still work out for you, and the models are pretty awesome, imo anyway, so that alone is reason enough to give them a try, right?  Right?

 

 

Of course, there's also raptors.  Raptors come out of the same kit, so they also look awesome.  The only downside model-wise is that if you build warp talons with your jump troops, you can use the awesome pistols and ccweps for your regular infantry.  But whatever, raptors.  Raptors are, in general, worse bikes.  for only a couple more points, bikes are faster, tougher, have more attacks on the charge, and better shooting on their way in.  Their smaller min unit size makes them cheaper as harassment & suicide units, while their greater toughness makes them far preferable as character escorts.

 

All that said, if we forget bikes for a moment, raptors aren't bad.  They've got the stats and attacks to threaten light and medium infantry, they make tolerable character escorts who can deal with heavy infantry, they've got special weapons to hassle whatever they can't deal with in melee.  You can take them in bigger units escorting characters, or min units as harassment or tank hunters, potentially even deep striking for a suicide run at some tank's rear armor, which is something bikes can't do at least, though I don't really recommend it.  They're maybe a point overpriced, and the VotLW upgrade that should have been free on everything to begin with, but is at least arguably tolerable on CSMs or Bikes for one point a model, is just stupidly overpriced at two points a model on raptors.  It's almost enough to make me wish you could put a jet pack on an apostle.  Almost.

 

So yeah, they're worse bikes, but chaos bikes are stupidly good for their points cost, so even bad chaos bikes can still be pretty decent.  If you really want to use jump infantry - and with how great the new chaos jump kit is, and how lousy expensive the old bike models are I can hardly blame you - raptors are the ones I'd go with, personally.

 

 

Otherwise, While Night Lords generally favor sudden strike tactics, they're not exactly the 'jump legion', and basically all of our fast assault units are good fits for them thematically.  So the more typically 2x drakes, 1x bikes certainly fits night lords as well as anything else, though since everyone plays that now, it wouldn't exactly set your army apart, either.

[Prot]

Thanks for the advice. You're right, it's the kit that has me wanting to try this out, but again it's so frustrating with the 'almost works' rules and points cost. That being said the models just look awesome.

 

I still haven't tried this in 6th (I have the old metal Raptors) and partially this is because I have about 10 Chaos bikes put together including.... (drum roll please....) DOoooom Rider.

 

So it's even harder to get into Raptors/Talons for anything more than how cool they look.

 

It's an interesting side note you make about a basic Night Lords list being pretty much what everyone has anyway...

[chillin]

- raptors and bikes are pretty good, warp talons are WAY over priced, forget about them. As for the video of WT's " annihilated" alot of squads, I have to question the authentisity of it or at least the circumstances behind it. I mean you could make a vid of any squad in the game killing stuff if your the one manipulating the circumstances being filmed couldnt you. Dont believ eveerything you see a video of.

- Your right DP's are now to expensive for 1500 pt arny, lord on bike is your best bet.

- Dont mix melts and plaz in same squad, pick one and use 2 of the same

- whats wrong w chaos turkey as 3rd FA slot ? Or replace with another bike or raptor squad. But the turkey w hades cannion can help vs enemy flyers.

[Prot]

- raptors and bikes are pretty good, warp talons are WAY over priced, forget about them. As for the video of WT's " annihilated" alot of squads, I have to question the authentisity of it or at least the circumstances behind it. I mean you could make a vid of any squad in the game killing stuff if your the one manipulating the circumstances being filmed couldnt you. Dont believ eveerything you see a video of.

- Your right DP's are now to expensive for 1500 pt arny, lord on bike is your best bet.

- Dont mix melts and plaz in same squad, pick one and use 2 of the same

- whats wrong w chaos turkey as 3rd FA slot ? Or replace with another bike or raptor squad. But the turkey w hades cannion can help vs enemy flyers.

 

On the Warp Talons..., it may have been a niche situation. The game was 1850ish points and the Warp Talons did make short work of blood angel shooting lines, pretty much hammering them as they ran into them. WIth Votlw and Shred it became apparent that *IF* the right match up comes along..... lots of fun could ensue. But you're right, it was definitely a success enjoyed in part by the circumstances.

 

Okay, let's assume for a second I dump any notion of the cool looking,but massively overpriced Warp Talons. I'm not in the habit of mixing weapons, but if points dictate it, I'm not opposed to pairing a melta with a plasma gun if I have to.... I've done this many times.

 

Oh and I'm not opposed to using a Heldrake, I did not mean to give that impression. It's just that in every list I've played... well nearly all, from my Red Corsair Huron lists and on, I've been running a lot of bike squads and Heldrake in 1500.... I was hoping to mix it up. But I guess that looks counter productive.

 

But getting back to my question... if I'm running Night Lords, and going with some fast terror striking units, I need to support that properly. So let's assume 1500 pts and a Fast Attack Night Lord's style is something like: Fire Turkey,  Raptors (really want to paint up the new ones),  and a 4 or 5 man biker squad as the main thrust of the army.  Now assuming that style of army, I have to properly support that.

 

So 1) what kind of troops actually work with this? Are we talking Vanilla CSM ? A mini gun line? Or mobile marked (or could be vanilla) CSM for assault followup? 2) Shooting. The way Necrons, IG, Tau, Eldar, and any other heavy shooting army work, I have to counter key units. I'd love to go wholesale assault, but that seems more of the World Eaters thing to do. Any suggestions?

[the jeske]

this is a chaos list

1 lord bike cf/Lc brand

 

3x5pms 2xplasma

2xhelldrakes

1x5bikers 2xmeltagun powerax

2x2 oblits

1x5 AC havocks

 

replace the second helldrake with a unit of raptors [others told before why this is a bad idea , so I wont go in to that] . scaling down you remove havocks first , third pm unit second . if it still doesnt fit in to 1500pts , then it is impossible to take raptors in a 1500pts chaos army.

[chillin]

I think if you tried to go w a gun line or other standback and shooting for the rest of the army, your raptors and bikes are going to be all out by themselves, and get overwhelmed. I think you have to go w csm's in rinos (or running behind them) to support your fast units and throw into CC or intecept enemy squads if needed. Also the empty rinos can be used to block LoS and keep nasty tau or necrom , etc guns off your bikes and raptors.

[derpasaurus]

I'll keep it short, I don't have any personal experience with warp talons, but they seem very expensive and very situational.
Double up your raptor weapons. Make them kill infantry OR tanks, you won't have as much luck building for both. I would only give them khorne if you're going 2 melta or 2 flamer, as you can't assault if you fire the plasma, so rage is wasted. (counter attack could be nice tho) I like to mark with Slaanesh for the extra initiative, that's a nice deterrent to being charged, knowing the charged unit will go first.

Bikes, however, make excellent use of plasma. Gogo relentless.

EDIT:
If you want to build a "fluffy" night lords list you're going to lose. A lot. Ignore jeske, and play what you want, but be prepared for some tough games. However, I must add, if you want to win and don't have any particular army comp in mind, jeske has a lot of solid ideas.

[the jeske]

 

I must add, if you want to win and don't have any particular army comp in mind,

<_< didnt I just post a NL army for him to rework using raptors ?

[*Furyou Miko]

You're jumping at ghosts, jeske, derp was saying that you're good at listbuilding.

[Prot]

I must add, if you want to win and don't have any particular army comp in mind,

didnt I just post a NL army for him to rework using raptors ?

I think what he's saying is that you provide a good fundamental list, but perhaps not the most 'fluffy' Night Lord list, even with options.

I am trying to find something that would give me a shot at winning but not utterly at the sacrifice of legion flavour. What sours me here is the very lists suggested to win with, are nearly identical to what I started with when the codex came out, sans Huron. I was hoping to get away from that.

Now I see I am once again coming full circle to going back to Iron Warriors, or Red Corsairs, or perhaps mirroring their identity with different colours. (Though I've never tried a Lord on a bike and that in itself lends some credibility to Night Lords.)

Thanks for your help. still not sure about troops... I never am with Chaos though. :)

[chillin]

  What sours me here is the very lists suggested to win with, are nearly identical to what I started with when the codex came out, sans Huron. I was hoping to get away from that.

.

Thats because chaso is once again, left with a dex that has only a few competitive builds, and trying to build a fluffy list (with the exception of 1 or 2) handicaps you.

Such high hopes for this dex, such low satisfaction . not as bad as gavdex but still blah. Really, how hard would it have to to make legion rules ???

[the jeske]

they cant make legion rules for chaos , because FW is doing w30k . If both GW and FW made rules for legions then the sells of FW would drop and you have to remember that GW thought that both the gav dex and the kelly one were awesome . If those didnt have the sales they wanted [as in the 3.5sells], then they may start thinking "well this is how much people want to buy chaos or chaos related stuff , no need to concentrate or invest in to something which wont sell much better anyway and concentrate on stuff that will sell better.". A natural thing to do , when you start from the point of "we are making the most awesome game and models in this part of world".

[Panda_]

Such high hopes for this dex, such low satisfaction . not as bad as gavdex but still blah. Really, how hard would it have to to make legion rules ???

It's not about Legion rules. It's about being able to play with a "Veterans". The CSM troop is too "subpar marines" that it prohibits to play with a "Veteran" army. While the dex have much more customisation options, its internal balance invalidate half. Our dex would need more custom. But then, more customisation leads to more "bad entries", and the snake eat its tail.

 

Veterans of The Long War is a nice rule, but we would have like it to be Prefered Enemy instead of Hatred (even if that could be too powerful). Chosen lost Infiltrate. WP can't buy grenades. Lords/Sorceror are much more expensive than loyalists, neither stronger. If you play without Marks or Demons, the whole codex has no edge over SW.

 

Why DA, SW, GK, Ultra tacticals have something over their comrades while our CSM have nothing but "cheapness" ? That's what fails when you want a Veteran army (Legions), and Legion rule have nothing to do with it.

 

A solution for us would be a edition change (something about Rhinos and charges) and a new SW codex (inferior to what it is)... or playing for pure fun (with more points...)

[Sception]

Main problems to me are that the chaos marines themselves - chosen, terminators, cults, possessed, CSMs, Bikes, Raptors, Talons, and Havocs, are all Boring, Lackluster, Outright Bad, or some combination of the above. Out of that list, the 'good' ones are Bikes and Havocs, which is a problem first because they aren't troops so you can't build your army out of them and second because they're 'boring' - nothing particularly exciting or chaosy about them, they're just cheap for what they bring to the table. Bikes at least get some mileage out of the marks & some of the icons, but mostly they're just marine bikes who trade ATSKNF for +1 attack and cost way less points. Plauges and Noise Marines are okay, but far from inspiring. You can't have a cool, fun, exciting chaos marine codex when the chaos marines are the least effective or least interesting options in the book.

 

 

I also feel that legion rules per se aren't necessary. Few of the legion rules in the 3.5 book actually let you play armies that were noticeably different from what you could run with just the regular list. We don't need sublists, we just need a main list sufficiently diverse and internally balanced to make different theme builds possible, written by a designer aware of the history and keeping the various legion themes in mind. And especially we need a book that makes elite, veteran armies functional, and that's really lacking in this book. The vet rule itself is underwhelming and overpriced. It fits poorly on several units, and the units themselves even with the rule still end up feeling less 'veteran' and less 'elite' then basic loyalist tacticals, between their combat tactics and ATSKNF.

 

I'm fine with basic chaos marines being discheveled renegades, but the elites and characters - the units that should be representing millenia old veterans of the long war - should be on a level with grey knights - not that they should be 'better' in game terms, but that they should have similar amounts of special rules and fancy relics and gear marking them out as something special. It's just really hard to get that veteran feel out of this book, and that's where it fails the legions the hardest, imo.

 

 

Like... imagine this. Drop the vets rule. All chaos marines are stubborn and hate [loyalists] by default, just because. Raptors are maybe a point cheaper, bikes either two points more, or have to buy their extra hand weapon like basic CSMs. No warp talons, instead chosen can be given jump packs or bikes, and possessed wings, and undivided warlords make chosen troops. Chaos Drop pods or a revised & streamlined version of dreadclaws are available for elite & troop marine units. Next make all marks free, but no effect. Instead units can purchase from a selection of chaos blessings restricted by mark. This lets you mix up mark benefits some (nurgle might have offensive - in poison, or defensive - in shroud, etc) adding some variety to single alignment lists, while also letting you take straight aligned units without any extra benefit if you don't want to pay a tax on it. Add one or two options for undivided blessings, some rules encouraging like-marked units across the army (characters can only join like-marked units, characters with aura-buffs of nearby like-marked units, etc) and you've got a system that lets you add 'eliteness' and customizability without hamstringing by fluff quite as badly.

 

Now you can run your 'night lords' list with an undivided prince or jump HQ, some deep striking terminators, some winged possessed, troops split between jump pack or bike chosen and CSMs in rhinos or pods, Fast split between raptors, bikes, & drakes, and whatever Heavy support feels appropriate. Everything is stubborn and hates loyalists, and depending on what undivided blessings are available they all might have stealth or cause fear as well.

 

Or you can run your 'Iron Warriors' list with an undivided lord or smith, terminators & drop pod dreds in elite, troops split between chosen infantry with 2x heavy weapon & sacrificial cultist blobs, maybe a flier or some bikes in fast, and heavy split between havocs & tanks. Oblits would go in heavy, or get recombined with maulers and go in elites. Again, the whole lot hatred and stubborn, maybe some blessing on appropriate units. Maybe squad of berzerkers podding in or taking some assault transport in elites, since that wouldn't be forbidden.

 

The point is, you could do legion lists to your hearts content without legion rules, you just need sufficient versatility out of your various marine units, and I just don't think the current book has that. It has a lot of options, between vets and marks and icons, but they just don't seem to amount to that much actual versatility, and I primarily blame lack of variety in transports and lackluster implementation of chosen and cult troops, along the vets rule making what should be inherent in the nature of all chaos marines into an option that costs extra points.

[the jeske]

a revised & streamlined version of dreadclaws are available for

elite & troop marine units. Next make all marks free, but no

effect. Instead units can purchase from a selection of chaos blessings

restricted by mark. This lets you mix up mark benefits some (nurgle

might have offensive - in poison, or defensive - in shroud, etc) adding

some variety to single alignment lists, while also letting you take

straight aligned units without any extra benefit if you don't want to

pay a tax on it. Add one or two options for undivided blessings, some

rules encouraging like-marked units across the army (characters can only

join like-marked units, characters with aura-buffs of nearby

like-marked units, etc) and you've got a system that lets you add

'eliteness' and customizability without hamstringing by fluff quite as

badly.

Oh that is a very good idea . Or make stuff tiered . MoN in an army of chaos that mixes stuff does X. If an HQ with mon joins it it doesn X+Y. but if all models in the army are MoN or are non walker vehicles it does X+Y+Z . This way using one maybe 2 pages from a codex , you could have legion , cult armies ,renegades , BL done . legion or cult players would have stuff , those that want to play a BL style could do that , those who want to play non legion chaos could do that too. But of course it is too Chambers idea .