Reserves Order of Operations

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I've been playing this a certain way but I want to make absolute sure I'm getting this right.

1. Turn 1 Assault Phase Complete
2. Turn 2 Roll for All Reserves in one hand throw, not one at a time (only matters if you have a Reserves manipulator rule though)
3. Turn 2 Movement Phase begins
4. Cast any Blessings/Maledictions
5. Move Units, one at a time (Any Order 1-4 from below)
   1. Normal Units
   2. Deep Strikers
   3. Outflankers
   4. Normal Reserves

The thing is that most players assume this is not the truth. Most players I've seen follow this rubric instead:

1. Turn 1 Assault Phase Complete
2. Turn 2 Roll for each item in Reserves one at a time
3. Turn 2 Movement Phase begins
4. Cast Blessings/Maledictions
5. Move Reserves (Any Order 1-3 below)
   1. Deep Strikers to table
   2. Outflankers to table
   3. Normal Reserves to table
6. Move Normal Units on table

 

 

Now, with the top table it means you can move units out of the way before your Reserves arrive, making room on your board-edge. Also it means Teleport Homers (and such like items) that were on the table on Turn 1 will be able to Move before Deep Strikers land, aiding in flexibility and reach (example: Unit moves 6" Turn 1 then moves 6" Turn 2 then Deep Strikers land within 6" of it... grand total 18" rather than 12")

 

Please denote whether you think the top table is correct or the bottom table is correct. I think the top table is correct and I'll defend in the lower comments.

[Morollan]

Page 124

 

 

When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on
until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

 

You roll for reserves (not sure why you're throwing all the dice at once - how do you tell which roll is for which unit?) then any reserves that are arriving move onto the table then you move other units.

[Panzerbjørn]

I am also curious how exactly you roll for reserves.

Do you mean (Assuming that you have four reserved units):

1) Roll 4 dice, assign the results as you see fit

2) Roll 1 dice for each unit at a time

 

If I read BRB page 124 column 2 1st paragraph correctly, I believe 2) is correct.

 

Also, Page 124 column 2 paragraph 5 states When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.

Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.

The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.

This leads me to believe that the second table you wrote is the correct one to follow.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

You have 4 different units in reserve. You take 4 different color dice and assign them to the units, then roll all 4 dice at one time. I'm convinced that is not just legal but should be the way to do it.

 

As for the Arrival versus Movement order, yea ok I see the red table's correct. Thanks Morollan-- I like to be wrong in public places so that the lesson is reinforced by embarassment. haha good show. Glad I asked the question... sigh... one missed clause is all it took... "may then move his other units"  lol

[Panzerbjørn]

You have 4 different units in reserve. You take 4 different color dice and assign them to the units, then roll all 4 dice at one time. I'm convinced that is not just legal but should be the way to do it.

Yes, that is the correct way of doing it. In that case, there's really no difference between the two methods you describe, except that in option 2 you don't have to remember which colour represents which unit.

 

As for the Arrival versus Movement order, yea ok I see the red table's correct. Thanks Morollan-- I like to be wrong in public places so that the lesson is reinforced by embarassment. haha good show. Glad I asked the question... sigh... one missed clause is all it took... "may then move his other units"  lol

With ~150 pages of rules, it's not hard to overlook something ;-)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Yes, that is the correct way of doing it. In that case, there's really no difference between the two methods you describe, except that in option 2 you don't have to remember which colour represents which unit.

Ah but there is a subtle difference, but only when you have ability to manipulate your Reserves (Comms Relay Fortification, Strategic Genius Warlord ability, Psychic Communion, etc)

 

Reason why it matters is that you get to see, all at one time, which units are arriving before deciding which ones you want to re-roll/add or subtract 1/etcetc

 

This is important for principles of target saturation--- if almost nothing is arriving, you'll probably use the re-rolls to try to make nothing come in. If most of your units are arriving, you'll use your rerolls to try to make everything show up.

[Raeven]

Eh..

 

I don't care for single rolls, but I don't object to it.  Drags out the game in most cases.  While single rolls gives you a little manipulation, it's no different than choosing which order the units arrive from reserves after you roll really.

 

What I object to, is when some fool fires a 2 shot or more twin linked weapon and rolls 4 dice (same color) and picks the highest.  I've cussed some people out over that.

[nurglez]

On the tangent,

I can see how rolling 4 dice picking the best 2 is seen to be the same as 2 dice and rerolling by some people, but it does change the odds around, so we dont do that :D

 

I rarely have any reserve manipulation, so it doesn't matter if I roll one at a time. I roll similar ones together though (if I have my 2 identical cultist squads in reserve I'll roll them together).

 

I dislike it when 2 outflanking units are rolled for at the same time to decide which table edge they come on from. 

[Fibonacci]

In the daemon codex, most of the troops my take ac instrument of chaos.  One of the benifts of having an instrument is that when that unit comes in from reserves, it may pick another uniit still in reserves that has not rolled yet that turn and then that unit automaticaly comes in from reserves as well.  This can only happen if you roll one unit at a time.

[Seahawk]

Yea, you always roll one at a time, and units arrive from Reserves before any other movement (though psychic powers like blessings can be before or after arriving Reserves show up).

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah, the BRB FAQ has stated that the order of Blessings+Maledictions vs Reserves vs other "at the beginning of the Movement phase" things happening is totally up to the player. So if you want to cast a Blessing on a Deep Striking squad, you can Deep Strike them first and then cast the power.

[Panzerbjørn]

 

 

Yes, that is the correct way of doing it. In that case, there's really no difference between the two methods you describe, except that in option 2 you don't have to remember which colour represents which unit.

Ah but there is a subtle difference, but only when you have ability to manipulate your Reserves (Comms Relay Fortification, Strategic Genius Warlord ability, Psychic Communion, etc)

 

Reason why it matters is that you get to see, all at one time, which units are arriving before deciding which ones you want to re-roll/add or subtract 1/etcetc

 

This is important for principles of target saturation--- if almost nothing is arriving, you'll probably use the re-rolls to try to make nothing come in. If most of your units are arriving, you'll use your rerolls to try to make everything show up.

 

 

But you don't place them until you've rolled for all your units in reserve. So I still don't get how it makes a difference?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

 

Yes, that is the correct way of doing it. In that case, there's really no difference between the two methods you describe, except that in option 2 you don't have to remember which colour represents which unit.

Ah but there is a subtle difference, but only when you have ability to manipulate your Reserves (Comms Relay Fortification, Strategic Genius Warlord ability, Psychic Communion, etc)

 

Reason why it matters is that you get to see, all at one time, which units are arriving before deciding which ones you want to re-roll/add or subtract 1/etcetc

 

This is important for principles of target saturation--- if almost nothing is arriving, you'll probably use the re-rolls to try to make nothing come in. If most of your units are arriving, you'll use your rerolls to try to make everything show up.

 

But you don't place them until you've rolled for all your units in reserve. So I still don't get how it makes a difference?

I have 4 units in reserve. I designate red die for Unit 1, blue for Unit 2, green for Unit 3, and black for Unit 4. I also have an item that allows me to reroll one reserve roll.

 

I roll all 4 dice and see that 3 make it. I spend the reroll. All 4 come in.

 

If I had rolled one unit at a time, I might see that Unit 1 failed to show up, spent the reroll, gotten Unit 1, and then missed on the remaining 3.

 

Do you now see the difference?

 

On a tangent, I never allow speed-rolling for reserves. The rules are quite clear, after all.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Yeah, the BRB FAQ has stated that the order of Blessings+Maledictions vs Reserves vs other "at the beginning of the Movement phase" things happening is totally up to the player. So if you want to cast a Blessing on a Deep Striking squad, you can Deep Strike them first and then cast the power.

When the FAQ came out, this was exactly the sort of thing we said was not legal, am I right?

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269741-deep-strike-and-psychic-powers/?hl=%2Bblessings&do=findComment&comment=3290072

[CitadelArmyGuy]

On a tangent, I never allow speed-rolling for reserves. The rules are quite clear, after all.

The rules are not clear. The rules say "roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve"

 

Nowhere does it say roll them separately one at a time. The interpretation is wide open.

[Seahawk]

No, the reason a psyker can't arrive from Reserves and manifest a psychic power is because page 67 says so. The FAQ still allows psykers that are already on the table to manifest powers after other units arrive from Reserves.

[dswanick]

 

On a tangent, I never allow speed-rolling for reserves. The rules are quite clear, after all.

The rules are not clear. The rules say "roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve"Nowhere does it say roll them separately one at a time. The interpretation is wide open.

One uniquely colored die per unit, rolled in a batch -or- one die rolled for each unit consecutively : either approach satisfies the RAW. And either approach gives the same results, because you make the die rolls for all reserved units before deploying any of the ones arriving, and nothing prevents you from waiting for the results of all reserve dice rolls before deciding how to use your modifications.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

No, the reason a psyker can't arrive from Reserves and manifest a psychic power is because page 67 says so. The FAQ still allows psykers that are already on the table to manifest powers after other units arrive from Reserves.

That is opposite from what the thread I linked says. From Venemox: "psychic power manifested at the beginning of the Movement Phase could be used before rolling for Reserves OR after, controlling players choice. However, it cannot happen after arriving from reserves, as that is no longer the start of the Movement phase"

 

Basically the Rolling of Reserves and Casting of Blessings are simultaneous. The Arrival of Reserves is not simultaneous, it occurs after the start of Movement Phase.

 

The only thing the FAQ fixed was to clarify that Scrier's Gaze and Psychic Communion work as intended.

In the daemon codex, most of the troops my take ac instrument of chaos. One of the benifts of having an instrument is that when that unit comes in from reserves, it may pick another uniit still in reserves that has not rolled yet that turn and then that unit automaticaly comes in from reserves as well. This can only happen if you roll one unit at a time.

This does not enforce the correct way to roll Reserves. This merely says that if you want to benefit from your Icon, you should probably roll one at a time (or at least don't roll for the Icon-less units first)

 

I'm not trying to be obtuse, nor am I trying to be combative. I am simply pointing out that there are options on how you wish to roll your Reserves, and that either altogether, in singles, or even a combination of the two is completely RAW legal.

[Panzerbjørn]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is the correct way of doing it. In that case, there's really no difference between the two methods you describe, except that in option 2 you don't have to remember which colour represents which unit.

Ah but there is a subtle difference, but only when you have ability to manipulate your Reserves (Comms Relay Fortification, Strategic Genius Warlord ability, Psychic Communion, etc)

 

Reason why it matters is that you get to see, all at one time, which units are arriving before deciding which ones you want to re-roll/add or subtract 1/etcetc

 

This is important for principles of target saturation--- if almost nothing is arriving, you'll probably use the re-rolls to try to make nothing come in. If most of your units are arriving, you'll use your rerolls to try to make everything show up.

 

 

But you don't place them until you've rolled for all your units in reserve. So I still don't get how it makes a difference?

 

 

I have 4 units in reserve. I designate red die for Unit 1, blue for Unit 2, green for Unit 3, and black for Unit 4. I also have an item that allows me to reroll one reserve roll.

 

I roll all 4 dice and see that 3 make it. I spend the reroll. All 4 come in.

 

If I had rolled one unit at a time, I might see that Unit 1 failed to show up, spent the reroll, gotten Unit 1, and then missed on the remaining 3.

 

Do you now see the difference?

 

On a tangent, I never allow speed-rolling for reserves. The rules are quite clear, after all.

 

 

Not really. Unless the rules for the re-roll specifies that you must do your reserve rolls differently from what it says in the BRB, there's nothing to prevent you from rolling all your reserves and then reroll the one(s) you want to.

So I still don't see how the way you roll may make a difference, other than rolling four differently coloured dice will take much longer when you first have to go through which colour represent which unit, rather than just point at the unit and roll.

 

But, each to their own, you can do it either way since the rules don't specify which way you should do it.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

 

 

On a tangent, I never allow speed-rolling for reserves. The rules are quite clear, after all.

The rules are not clear. The rules say "roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve"Nowhere does it say roll them separately one at a time. The interpretation is wide open.

One uniquely colored die per unit, rolled in a batch -or- one die rolled for each unit consecutively : either approach satisfies the RAW. And either approach gives the same results, because you make the die rolls for all reserved units before deploying any of the ones arriving, and nothing prevents you from waiting for the results of all reserve dice rolls before deciding how to use your modifications.

 

The full quote from the rulebook is thus: "At the start of Turn 2, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for again next turn."

 

"If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn." If the die for a unit comes up 3+, you get that unit coming in from reserve. This implies that each die rolled is keyed to a specific unit before the roll is made. Else one may as well claim that since you rolled what is effectively xD6, you'll be guaranteed to get one unit, and one unit only, since 3D6 has an average of 11 or so, which is quite a lot more than 3.

[dswanick]

 

 

 

 

 

 

On a tangent, I never allow speed-rolling for reserves. The rules are quite clear, after all.

 

The rules are not clear. The rules say "roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve"Nowhere does it say roll them separately one at a time. The interpretation is wide open.

One uniquely colored die per unit, rolled in a batch -or- one die rolled for each unit consecutively : either approach satisfies the RAW. And either approach gives the same results, because you make the die rolls for all reserved units before deploying any of the ones arriving, and nothing prevents you from waiting for the results of all reserve dice rolls before deciding how to use your modifications.

 

The full quote from the rulebook is thus: "At the start of Turn 2, you must roll a D6 for each unit being held in reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in reserve and is rolled for again next turn."

 

"If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn." If the die for a unit comes up 3+, you get that unit coming in from reserve. This implies that each die rolled is keyed to a specific unit before the roll is made. Else one may as well claim that since you rolled what is effectively xD6, you'll be guaranteed to get one unit, and one unit only, since 3D6 has an average of 11 or so, which is quite a lot more than 3.

What? I have no idea what you're driving at, but i'm pretty sure it has no relationship to my quoted post...

[Seahawk]

As dswanick said. 

 

Turn begins

1. Roll for units in Reserves, either singly or all at once using different colored dice if it matters.

2. Consider whether or not to use any modifications or rerolls available.

3. Resolve what comes in and what doesn't.

4. Move such units onto the table. (interchangeable with below)

4. Cast Blessings/Maledictions. (interchangeable with above and below)

4. Resolve other "at the start of the turn" effects. (interchangeable with above)

5. Start moving other units already on the table.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Turn begins

1. Roll for units in Reserves, either singly or all at once using different colored dice if it matters.

2. Consider whether or not to use any modifications or rerolls available.

3. Resolve what comes in and what doesn't.

4. Move such units onto the table. (interchangeable with below)

4. Cast Blessings/Maledictions. (interchangeable with above and below)

4. Resolve other "at the start of the turn" effects. (interchangeable with above)

5. Start moving other units already on the table.

This is true if Rolling Reserves and Arriving Reserves are simultaneous. The FAQ only says Rolling Reserves and Casting Blessings are simultaneous.

 

Equal Sign means Simultaneous: If Rolling=Casting, and Rolling=Arrival, then Arrival=Casting.

 

However, if Arrival of Reserves happens "at a later moment in time" than Rolling for them, then Rolling=/=Arrival which would mean Arrival cannot be executed prior to Casting.

 

I revisited the rules thread, the FAQ and the rulebook itself. I feel the interpretation is in fact open as to whether Rolling=Arrival for sequential purposes. And when something is open to interpretation, usually it is permissive.

 

To be honest I am pretty happy about that, since I was bummed out I couldn't Prescience a Unit which just arrived so long as Caster was on table the prior Turn. Thanks Seahawk, cheers

[Dam13n]

Not to stir this whole debate up again, but the way I see it the FAQ states that blessings/maledictions occur at the same sub-phase as rolling for reserves. ie the start of the movement phase.

 

The moment you begin placing units onto the board you are beyond the "start of the movement phase" as you are moving units onto the board. Whether that occurs by coming on from your table edge, outflanking or deep strike, you still arrive by moving onto the table in some fashion or another.

 

I see it as:

Movement Phase:

- Start sub-phase;

-- Roll for all reserves

-- Cast blessings/maledictions

-- Attempt to rally fleeing units

(may interchange the order of the above options, but must complete one before starting the other)

- Movement sub-phase;

-- Mandatory movement (including reserves arriving, consolidate moves from rallying etc.)

-- Standard movement (including declaring units/models as stationary)

 

Of course it's all a matter of interpretation.

 

As far as the original topic is concerned, I don't see how it really matters, so long as all units and their corresponding die are identifiable (rolling seperately or using different colours). The rules regarding re-rolls don't state exactly when you have to perform the re-roll. So you could (if rolling seperately) roll immediately after making the original roll, or wait until all reserve rolls have been made, then choose which to re-roll. This works out exactly the same as rolling all dice together then picking which to re-roll.