Updating Blood Claws

[maverik_girl]

So what do you think needs to be tweaked or changed to make it more appealing to field Blood Claws in a future SW codex.

 

I've seen from experience, that people today mainly use Blood Claws to play more in terms of fluff. Which is fine and fun... however compared to Grey Hunters they just don't measure up both tactically and points/worth. Which is sad, because back in third edition, having three power fist in a 15 man pack was almost a norm when it came to Blood Claws. *I miss those days*

 

Anyway, my take or wish-list is as follows: I would like to see 20 of these thrall shock troops fielded instead of 15. Lower the point cost of each Blood Claw. Bring their BS up to 4... they're space marines after-all. Didn't make sense they had lower BS. They don't get access to special wargear... except for mark of the wulfen, close combat weapons, grenades and their bolt pistols. But to balance it out, lower their save to 4+ instead of 3+ why you ask? cause they should get fleet.

 

I dunno what are some of your thoughts? Sorry I'm just bored at work here at the hospital. Late night shift on my break haha

[hendrik]

why would a bloodclbaw get BS4?they are still just mere recruits like any scouts in other chapters. they main difference (geneseed aside) is that they wear power armour instead of scout armour and get a more battlefield active role then normal scouts. 

why the no acces to special wargear? in the ragnar novels there is plenty of reason to assume it's fluffwise. especially things like flamers etc!

last but not least, fleet? why? we're no silly eldar! there's no reason a bloodclaw should be able to move faster then a grey hunter (woo the whelps that think this! my old legs can still catch up, with yours, and should they fail to do so there's still nothing wrong with my throwing arm!!)

personally i think the best way to make the bloodclaws viable again would be to lower their point cost a bit. alternetivaly, you could offcourse just increase the price for a grey hunter...

[maverik_girl]

Yikes... so much for me thinking out of the box. I recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it.

[dswanick]

My changes : drop access to plasma guns, melta guns, and power weapons (these artifacts are too valuable for unblooded whelps), increase the unit cap to 20 models, and give it access to one MotW per ten models. Decrease model cost to 12.

[jester262]

the only thing I think that needs to change is drop the cost to say 13 a model. everything else is fine

[SamaNagol]

13pts

 

1 Special CCW per 5 models

 

Fixed.

[Thunderhawk3015]

The thing to remember about some of the stat line numbers is that they are much more generalized.  So from a fluff perspective a Blood Claw being WS/BS 3 does not make much sense.  Translate their abilities to the tabletop and where marines are a 4, the blood claws are still the closest thing Wolves have to a Codex Scout so their lesser experience translates appropriately as a 3 because they are not as practiced as their elders.

 

13 points per model:

 

So they cost the same as a scout but have a better armor save and extra attack on the charge?  I don't think so.  Unless codex scouts went down in price further. 

 

More special ranged weapons:

 

I could see them getting access to the meltaguns, plasma guns, and flamers.  Fits the viewpoint of the Wolves in general, where if your good at something or something needs to be done, use the tool for the job. 

 

More access to special CCW's:

No.  Anyone who saw the blood claws with 3 power weapons/fists from the previous dex in action would cringe as well.  12 power axe attacks... the QQ would never end.  Add a wolf priest and, well it hurts to think about.

 

If I was going to change anything it would be change their rule for their charge so that they were able to make a disorganized charge with half their bonus attacks and/or ignore the minus charge penalties some wargear provides.  With their enthusiasm I don't think flashing lights or the fact they are crashing into units would impair their abilities.  

[SamaNagol]

Better Save and 2 attacks on the charge, but no Infiltrate/Scout. Yup. 13pts would see them being used. They are still an assault unit that has to get there....

 

You can bring up the old codex with 15 Blood Claws pouring out of a Land Raider with a Wolf Priest all you like.... That unit cost nigh on 600pts. And TH/SS terminators are still better.

[Wulfebane]

My changes : drop access to plasma guns, melta guns, and power weapons (these artifacts are too valuable for unblooded whelps), increase the unit cap to 20 models, and give it access to one MotW per ten models. Decrease model cost to 12.

This makes the most sense to me. And I get what Mav_girl was after with the BS4, but I think she went with the wrong stat. Think of BC origins. They're lucky to have seen a crossbow, not to mention any form of projectile that isn't a spear; but put a sword or axe in their hand and its second nature.Therefore, I'd be in favor of WS4. That, combined with the 2 motw and increased body count as proposed and I would easily pay their current full price.

 

All these proposed modifications to enhance their ranged potential seems superfluous to me. We have GH for that. I want my Claws for assaulting.

 

What we should be comparing them to is how to modify them to where they're more worth taking in an assault role than allying with BA to take DC or even standard assault squads.

[Forté]

With WS4 and the special rules they have already then they would be worth 15. As they are but a possible bump to 20 for the unit max would work at 13 points. Trading Infiltrate for an armour boost works and vanilla scouts have access to heavy weapons and snipers so we should keep the special weapon options.

[eyeslikethunder]

I remember when blood claws were ws5 same as Gh

 

but going forward i would reduce their cost to 12 as unit costs go down with each codex and by time they come out that would be about right.

 

 

I would restore their 1 in 5 special weapons as otherwise they will lack versatility

And be only be able to fight weaker units. They need to compete with Gh as an option

I like the 20 man squad sizes suggested by others

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Is not the issue that are GH are good, rather than BC are bad?

 

There needs to be some incentive over fluff to bring these boys to the table. As has been said, at the moment, only pack size makes them attractive.

 

So I also like the idea of 20 strong packs - very pre-Heresy ;)

[Aztec]

Remove Headstrong and Berserk Charge and replace with Rage and decrease by 1 point. That would do very nicely for starters.

Their unreliability is removed but they keep their bonus charge attacks. Even with the buff to them via replacing their rules with Rage the 1 point reduction is still justified to keep Blood Claws in the current trend decreasing Marine prices.

 

Things like a squad size increase to 20 wouldn't be bad, but tbh I don't see it as something to prioritise. Giving them access to extra special CCW's per 5 models would be good but in exchange I'd like to see them only have access to one special ranged weapon per unit.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I remember when blood claws were ws5 same as Gh

Ah yes, but then it is easier for me to remember as we've started playing 2nd Edition again :)

[Grey Mage]

You can bring up the old codex with 15 Blood Claws pouring out of a Land Raider with a Wolf Priest all you like.... That unit cost nigh on 600pts. And TH/SS terminators are still better.

Heh... not when the two units collide they arent. Mine routinely wipe out Calgar+TH/SS TDA from sheer weight of attacks.

 

I agree with switching out to Rage- its simple, and does the same thing really, so why complicate matters?

 

Putting access to a second special close combat weapon at full squads of 15 would be a huge bonus to their effectiveness, and let many of us dust off an old model or two.

 

A points increase for Grey Hunters by 1 pt would be valid, given how good they are. This would help the whelps feel more competitive internally without breaking them externally.

 

Skyclaws should be able to go up to 15. Rawr! With similar options.

 

Lastly, I think a special rule might be in order:

SAGA HUNGRY: Such is their desire to prove themselves, heady with the feeling of immortality that being reborn has given them that many Bloodclaws take wild risks in the heat of battle. Any member of a bloodclaw pack may issue or receive a challenge as if they were a character, though they may not make precision shots. Their skill with their new bodies is still to raw!

[Rift Blade]

@ Gray Mage--nice touch with the Saga. But perhaps call it Saga of the Glory Hungry? Saga of the Hungry sounds..cannabalistic. LOL!!!Seriously though, I like that idea. Well done. On the broader topic of Blood Claws themselves, perhaps a one pt decrease with WS 4 and 1 plasma/melta gun or plasma pistol per pack and 1 flamer per five. Not sure about CCW, perhaps 1 per pack. As has been pointed out, these are Blood Claws, new aspirants still in training to some extent & not fully trusted with more valuable wargear. Their spot in the Great Companies is shock troops. My 2 cents. Great thread. Lots of thoughtful ideas everyone.

[Aztec]

Given the current price of a chaos marine, 12-13 points for a Blood Claw seems like perhaps the best range to put them in although given the quantity of special rules they will have I'd have to say 13 points would be a much better assumption.

[Bonsai Monkey]

Hello,

 

I like the idea of the squad cap to be 20, but think that if the cost is going to go down then the stats should stay the same.

With regards to weapons, I think 1 ranged special per unit. My reason behind this is if we go with the 1 per 5 rule this unit could end up with 4 flamers/plasma/melta and this could get a fair bit of stick and doesnt strike me as very bloodclawy anyway. BUT, I think that the 1 per 5 special CCW could be doable within the fluff but no MOTW (see below)

With regards to special rules, I like the extra attacks aspect and must assault, it suits them. I also think that they could have something akin to the bloodangels thing of rage but instead of rage for every succesfull assault they have you test to see if some of the unit lose control and gain MOTW (they are all untested anyway and in fluff some seem to lose control in the fight). This should be capped to a max of 25% of the unit, anymore and again the stick would get to great. (A poss of 20 MOTW bloodclaws would be too much!)

 

Just my ramblings.

[WG Vrox]

Keep everything the same but increase their Initiative by +1 so up to an initiative of 5.   

 

This would keep with the fluff that they are aggressive and put caution to the wind in order to get the first strike. Their WS of 3 would counter the increase in initiative as they would still be hit on a dice roll of 3+ against most enemies. 

[Valerian]

I would do two things to Blood Claws, Sky Claws, and Swift Claws, and I think they'd be "fixed". First, allow up to two models to take a Special CCW, and one model can take a Special weapon (thus, exactly the opposite of a Grey Hunter pack), keep the option for one to be a MotW model. Second, keep a rule that says they have to attempt a Charge/Assault when within 6", but get rid of the rule that prevents them from shooting when not escorted; that rule sucks, and really keeps them from competing with Grey Hunters. Lastly, decrease the costs for Jump Packs and Bikes for Wolf Guard that are assigned as Pack Leaders for Sky/Swift Claws- it is currently ridiculous.

 

Valerian

[Rift Blade]

Yes, agreed on the price of Jump Packs & Bikes for Wolf Guard, but that's not for this thread so I'll say no more.

[Greylocke]

I'd like to see the stat line stay the same but give them a "hammer of wrath type" rule to represent the ferocity of their assault as they pile into an enemy. And of course give them access to a thunder rhino. Also bumping up the skyclaw pack to 15 would help them make some appearances on my tabletop.

[Grey Mage]

@ Gray Mage--nice touch with the Saga. But perhaps call it Saga of the Glory Hungry? Saga of the Hungry sounds..cannabalistic. LOL!!!Seriously though, I like that idea. Well done. On the broader topic of Blood Claws themselves, perhaps a one pt decrease with WS 4 and 1 plasma/melta gun or plasma pistol per pack and 1 flamer per five. Not sure about CCW, perhaps 1 per pack. As has been pointed out, these are Blood Claws, new aspirants still in training to some extent & not fully trusted with more valuable wargear. Their spot in the Great Companies is shock troops. My 2 cents. Great thread. Lots of thoughtful ideas everyone.

Saga Hungry, not Saga of the Hungry lol. But sure, you get the idea.

[Khine]

Instead of having the option to take a wolf guard in the pack, have the option to upgrade to having a Longfang pack leader. No options to the heavy weapons but give him the option of taking powerweapons/powerfists/combi-weapons/plasma pistol. For say.. 25 pts and the unit gains infiltrate. The whelps really need one of their older kin there to guide them and Wolfguard aren't always that old.

Also, definitely agree that the cap should be moved up to 20 Blood Claws but i think they should be 14 points a model or increase their WS to 4.

Only access to flamers and meltas (what's the point of giving them a plasma gun?).

Option to upgrade to having Bolters for 1 point per model.

Up to three models can have Mark of the wulfen at current pricing.



 

[Reichfaust]

So what do you think needs to be tweaked or changed to make it more appealing to field Blood Claws in a future SW codex.

 

Anyway, my take or wish-list is as follows: I would like to see 20 of these thrall shock troops fielded instead of 15. Lower the point cost of each Blood Claw. Bring their BS up to 4... they're space marines after-all. Didn't make sense they had lower BS. They don't get access to special wargear... except for mark of the wulfen, close combat weapons, grenades and their bolt pistols. But to balance it out, lower their save to 4+ instead of 3+ why you ask? cause they should get fleet.

 

A 20-man Blood Claw squad at say 14pts a model would be fantastic, but could be a little too good. I think they should definitely retain their power armour as opposed to scout armour, but I wouldn't mind them having BS3 and losing access to special weapons, so long as the trade off is a making them a little more reliable in CC.

 

My main issue with Blood Claws is that their single redeeming feature is instantly nullified if they receive a charge rather than make one themselves. And now with random charge lengths this is even more of a gamble. Compared to Grey Hunters they just can't compare. I say extend their special rule to encompass giving them a bonus attack when counter-attacking as well, maybe even allowing them to automatically pass the counter-attack test.