Updating Blood Claws

[Grey Mage]

I think the power of such a squad would definitely be held in check by the disorderly charge rules.

[Reede]

 

So what do you think needs to be tweaked or changed to make it more appealing to field Blood Claws in a future SW codex.

 

Anyway, my take or wish-list is as follows: I would like to see 20 of these thrall shock troops fielded instead of 15. Lower the point cost of each Blood Claw. Bring their BS up to 4... they're space marines after-all. Didn't make sense they had lower BS. They don't get access to special wargear... except for mark of the wulfen, close combat weapons, grenades and their bolt pistols. But to balance it out, lower their save to 4+ instead of 3+ why you ask? cause they should get fleet.

 

A 20-man Blood Claw squad at say 14pts a model would be fantastic, but could be a little too good. I think they should definitely retain their power armour as opposed to scout armour, but I wouldn't mind them having BS3 and losing access to special weapons, so long as the trade off is a making them a little more reliable in CC.

 

My main issue with Blood Claws is that their single redeeming feature is instantly nullified if they receive a charge rather than make one themselves. And now with random charge lengths this is even more of a gamble. Compared to Grey Hunters they just can't compare. I say extend their special rule to encompass giving them a bonus attack when counter-attacking as well, maybe even allowing them to automatically pass the counter-attack test.

 

Maybe even a roll on 3d6 to the charge, taking the two highest?

[Karack Blackstone]

I'd guess at the following:

 

- - -

 

14 Points per Blood Claw (Might go to 13 with what I've included below)

 

Normal, current stat line.

 

Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag & Krak, Power Armor

 

5 to 15 Pack Size (We've never gone up to 20; besides, there's better ways to fill a Storm Eagle or Caestus)

 

One Power Weapon or Power Fist, only if an HQ or WGPL are attached to the Pack

 

HQ or WGPL required for a Crusader to tear around in; otherwise, Rhino or Razorback as normal.

 

Keep Berserk Charge and Headstrong; they fit perfectly, however, I do like the plan with 3d6 on the charge, the only thing would be 2d6 + 3 might be more manageable. No Jump Packs on normal BC's.

 

As much as I'd love to have 15 strong SkyClaws Packs with a Flying WP and a Flying WGPL, we aren't there yet.

[Grey Mage]

Why restrict what kind of transport they can embark in? Thats an odd restriction.

[Karack Blackstone]

Why restrict what kind of transport they can embark in? Thats an odd restriction.

 

You're right in that it is odd; I was thinking that taking a LRC with a straight BC pack rather defeats the purpose of being in it.  As in, if you're the WL and toss a wrecking ball mass of Blood Claws into a Crusader, they'll be prying open the hatches to get at the foe before the shooting phase even starts.  So, if need be, remove the requirement.  I was not 100% certain of how that one felt when I put it in, just a thought that I would label as, "further consideration required."

[dswanick]

So here's my thought, after reading everyone's ideas:

 

Blood Claws Pack - 60pts
Blood Claw           3 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ Infantry
Blood Claw Alpha  4 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ Infantry (Character)

Unit Composition
5 Blood Claws

Wargear
Power Armor
Bolt Pistol
Chainsword
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades

Special Rules
And They Shall Know No Fear
Acute Senses
Counter-attack
Berserk Charge
Headstrong

Glory Hungry

Options
May include up to fifteen additional Blood Claws for +12pts / model.
One model may be upgraded to a Blood Claw Alpha for +10pts, or to Lukas the Trickster for +140pts.
For every ten models in the unit, one model may have a Mark of the Wulfen for +15pts.
For every ten models in the unit, one model may exchange its Bolt Pistol for a Flamer.
The Blood Claw Alpha may exchange his Bolt Pistol and/or Chainsword for :
- Plasma Pistol … +10pts
- Power Weapon … +15pts
- Power Fist … +25pts

 

Glory Hungry : The Blood Claw Alpha must issue and accept challenges, whenever able.

[Bonsai Monkey]

Hello,

 

Sorry to be negative, but if the idea is to get people to have more bloodclaws I wouldnt even think about it (even more) if the above was in place.

 

I like the 20 squad cap, and can see why stopping cc weapons is right for the unit and I think that limiting the special shooter to only being a flamer is spot on BUT, with regards to the alpha and his rule your basically giving up the option of hiding a powerfist in your unit and if you do go for one hes/its gone in a challenge when you hit the first unit. There is no point, you wouldnt bother wasting 25pts.

 

I still think that giving them MOTW is a nono, they shouldnt have seen enough yet to be losing themselves (or a friendly wolf priest would have taken them to one side already), or is this to represent them losing it during the fight?

 

Like I said sorry for being negative, you have put alot more complete thought into this than my pie in the sky thoughts and I dont mean them nastily.

[Wulfebane]

I still think that giving them MOTW is a nono, they shouldnt have seen enough yet to be losing themselves (or a friendly wolf priest would have taken them to one side already), or is this to represent them losing it during the fight?

I've always taken it to be during the fight. I also feel that motw works best with younger Wolves fresh from the Trials of Blood as they are still changing and have not managed to acclimate the hunger and primal urges their geneseed and canis helix are forcing on their bodied.

[Bonsai Monkey]

 

I still think that giving them MOTW is a nono, they shouldnt have seen enough yet to be losing themselves (or a friendly wolf priest would have taken them to one side already), or is this to represent them losing it during the fight?

I've always taken it to be during the fight. I also feel that motw works best with younger Wolves fresh from the Trials of Blood as they are still changing and have not managed to acclimate the hunger and primal urges their geneseed and canis helix are forcing on their bodied.

 

I like your logic, it make sense.

I was thinking of the battle of the fang and one of the best parts is when one of the claws loses it, he goes down but he mullers them before hand. If something like this could be incorporated into there rules it could be pretty cool.

Maybe the longer the combat goes on the more dangerous they could get (start getting rerolls or rending as the kill urge takes over), but to counter it they could start losing people as they get 'too into' the fight? 

Also another counter to this could be that the WG or character could lose control and the unit would have to start using there own leadership.

I am just trying to think of balancing but will admit to not having years and years of playing experience to know how badly making a unit overpowered could affect it?

[Wulfebane]

Oh, I remembered my reasoning for my thoughts on motw predominant in neophytes. It stems from the Trials of Blood, as I mentioned, but specifically in the first Omnibus where Ragnar is confronted with one of his rivals who appears wolf-bitten. And also the whole "there are no wolves on fenris" bit, where it's believed those that fail the Trial of Blood and don't die to the environs mutate so completely, that they progress beyond Wulfen into actual wolves (albeit alien in comparison to Earth's grey wolves, imo).

[Bonsai Monkey]

Hello,

 

Sorry I dont know if this is dead (Or I killed it?) but I was still thinking about this and when reading the rule book I stubbled acress the rampage special rule?

 

I think that this would give them legs (or claws)? If your going to take the max squad (presuming we get to be able to take 20) and have to stomp them across the board (I really doubt GW are going to give a special BC deliver system) a few are going to die but they are/should be in greater numbers when they hit the first unit. So this isnt going to kick in straight away, but maybe come into play during a very prolonged assault?  But once they have got through that one (hopefully) they will have been whittled a bit more this might be in play for there (hopefully again) second charge?

 

So, any thoughts?

[Jarl Deathwolf]

I like the idea of Rampage on Blood Claws, as even when they are reduced in numbers they would be a continual threat, and would stick to their fluff of being glory-hungry berserkers. It might call for them remaining 15 points, however. Or perhaps not, if they are allowed to go up to 20 models... hm...

[maverik_girl]

I've decided to do a little play testing on my next friendly game of 1500pts. Thank you for all your help and input! I've decided on using the following below.

Blood Claws Pack - 13 points per model

Fenris Blood           3 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ Infantry
Marauder (Pack Alpha) 4 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ Infantry

Unit Composition

5-20 Blood Claws

Wargear

Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

Special Rules

And They Shall Know No Fear, Acute Senses, Counter-attack, Murder-Make, Red Snow, Headstrong

Options

One model may be upgraded to a Marauder (Alpha) for +10pts, or to Lukas the Trickster for +140pts.

For every ten models in the unit, one model may have a Mark of the Wulfen for +15pts.

For every ten models in the unit, one model may exchange its Bolt Pistol for a Flamer.

Red Snow : Rage Special Rule
Headstrong: Stubborn Special Rule
Murder-Make : Rampage Special Rule


--EDIT--
any thoughts on these?

[dswanick]

any thoughts on these?

Well, you got rid of Headstrong (a disadvantage) and gave them Stubborn and Rampage (both advantages). They've lost some upgrade options, but kept the most useful ones while adding several new useful ones. I've found, in my own experiences with homebrew rules (Legio XI long before FW jumped on the bandwagon) that it's better to over-cost your rules and then let your opponent talk you down to a more reasonable cost - so I'd probably start testing your unit out at 15-16pts@ until you've played several games against several opponents. Also if you have any other (non-household) Wolf players, offer them games where they field this unit against you playing without them. It might reveal some less-obvious flaws in the unit balance.

 

Let us know how they work out. Detailed battle reports, especially.

[eyeslikethunder]

I would let lukas join sky claws as he is shown in fluff using a jump pack

[Kassill]

I'd be content with paying their current cost if they...

 

1) gave them WS4. They've been fighting all their lives just to survive, and now they've joined the sky warriors! BS3 makes sense though IMO.

2) bump the unit size to 20.

 

 

 

That's just my thoughts.

[Bonsai Monkey]

Hello,

 

That sounds like a unit I would field, but I agree with dswanick in the point cost. Maybe they would settle at 14? in the end but starting them as the same or if someone pulls horific faces the higher option might have to kick in? It depends on who your play?

 

If you do playtest a huge (20 strong) unit, tell us how it goes. Id be interested to know how they do?

 

Goodluck

[maverik_girl]

Hello,

 

That sounds like a unit I would field, but I agree with dswanick in the point cost. Maybe they would settle at 14? in the end but starting them as the same or if someone pulls horific faces the higher option might have to kick in? It depends on who your play?

 

If you do playtest a huge (20 strong) unit, tell us how it goes. Id be interested to know how they do?

 

Goodluck

13 points per model maybe low, especially if you have 20 of these guys. But you have to take into account that these guys are going to be foot slogging it across the table. There are allot of armies out there today that can easily handle a big blob through templates and ordinance. So really. 13 points per model is nothing if you are knowingly going to lose a fair number of Blood Claws just to get to your opponent. I mean there aren't allot of transport out there outside of forge world models that can keep a full pack safe.... so the decision of 13 points just felt logical to me. Now if we raise their WS to equal that of a Grey Hunters, then maybe the 14 points suggested would be more acceptable/reasonable.

 

Unfortunately no play testing yet. My schedule at the hospital is keeping me from playing anytime soon. But I'd like to ask/invite those people who are interested to help out!

[maverik_girl]

Sorry for the late reply/update... I ended up play testing these rules during a small friendly game. The only changes made were that I upped the point cost to 14 from our discussions in this thread. Only because I decided to do combat squads for the 20 Blood Claws. What I did was one pack of ten did the shooting while the other pack complimented the other by either supporting the squard with bolt pistol fire or close combat. It was really enjoyable to play these guys! allot of them suffered from templates and dakka, but once they got into close combat, it was just pure mayhem. I ended up losing to Tau, but it was a really close game! playing these Blood Claws made the night really fun for both my opponent and myself.

 

------

 

Blood Claws Pack - 14 points per model

 

Fenris Blood 3 3 4 4 1 4 1 8 3+ Infantry

 

Marauder (Pack Alpha) 4 3 4 4 1 4 1 9 3+ Infantry

 

Unit Composition

 

 

5-20 Blood Claws

 

Wargear

 

 

Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades

 

Special Rules

 

 

And They Shall Know No Fear, Acute Senses, Counter-attack, Murder-Make, Red Snow, Headstrong

 

Options

 

 

One model may be upgraded to a Marauder (Alpha) for +10pts, or to Lukas the Trickster for +140pts.

 

 

For every ten models in the unit, one model may have a Mark of the Wulfen for +15pts.

 

 

For every ten models in the unit, one model may exchange its Bolt Pistol for a Flamer.

 

 

A full pack of 20 Blood Claws can split into two 10 man combat squads, however these combat squads must remain 12 inches within each other.

 

 

Red Snow : Rage Special Rule

 

Headstrong: Stubborn Special Rule

 

Murder-Make : Rampage Special Rule

[skeletoro]

What's the point of the 10 pt pack alpha upgrade? At least against MEQ, having 1 model with WS4 literally won't do anything (except in challenges if it's a character).

 

I do like the idea of making them more "wolf pack" like - having an alpha, for instance. 

[Karack Blackstone]

I would keep Headstrong and add Stubborn under a special name like, "Threadcutter" or some such. Points values are hard to balance; I'd say with both added SR's, pts should be 15 still.  However, that is of course a guess.

 

As for myself, I was able to try a 15 Skyclaw pack during a friendly game last weekend.  They tarpitted against a unit of 8 SM TDA TH/SS kitted boys that hopped out of an LRC.

 

They all died to a man, but at a healthy 270 pts., that pack led by a flying WP sure felt like great fun for me.  I'd love to see the pack size for Skyclaws increased from 10 to 15, even if the price gets steep fast from the huge pack.  Still massively deadly, and now, with 60 attacks on the charge, plus, one HoR atk if one can get the charge off with the packs launching them into close combat!

[maverik_girl]

What's the point of the 10 pt pack alpha upgrade? At least against MEQ, having 1 model with WS4 literally won't do anything (except in challenges if it's a character).

 

I do like the idea of making them more "wolf pack" like - having an alpha, for instance.

Oops it was a cut and paste error, alpha upgrade also has a Ld 9. I know he's not much, but it's more of a fluff thing... maybe if he gets killed the blood claw packs can only do disorderly charges?!

[Khine]

 

 

What's the point of the 10 pt pack alpha upgrade? At least against MEQ, having 1 model with WS4 literally won't do anything (except in challenges if it's a character).

 

I do like the idea of making them more "wolf pack" like - having an alpha, for instance.

Oops it was a cut and paste error, alpha upgrade also has a Ld 9. I know he's not much, but it's more of a fluff thing... maybe if he gets killed the blood claw packs can only do disorderly charges?!

If you make them always disorderly charge after the alpha is dead then both the rage and rampage rules will become pointless.

 

How about this instead.

Rampant: At the start of controlling players turn when an alpha isn't present, take a leadership test. If the test is failed each model in the unit makes a single close combat attack against the unit at base strength and cannot perform any actions that turn. If the test is passed, the pack must make a D6 + 6" movement towards the nearest enemy.

[maverik_girl]

Mmm good point! But I might want to just keep it simple with the alpha.

 

The three special rules work for now. As for Blood Claw special rules: Red Snow (Rage) replaces or updates berserk charge. Headstrong (Stubborn) is pretty self explanatory.. The alpha helps when it comes with Ld test. Murder-Make (Rampage) helps when your 20 man pack gets cut down and you're finally able to get into close combat. A cornered wolf is more dangerous, and I can see the glory hungry claws fighting against all the odds.

 

Thoughts?

[skeletoro]

I think 24 points is too expensive for the alpha. Perhaps give the alpha a second attack and/or allow them to take a limited selection of wargear at wolf guard prices. Even then, you'd be looking at 34 points for an alpha with a power axe and bolt pistol, while a full blown wolf guard pack leader (with BS 4 and 2 attacks) is only 28... that seems fair, maybe, if the Alpha has rage.

 

That might be too good though, if the alpha is a character. It would give a typical blood claws pack an advantage in challenges as they can easily pack 2 cheap characters to cover challenges. E.g. give one a power sword or wolf claw, give the other a power axe or fist.

 

Were you thinking the alpha would be a character? Seems appropriate, though it's different to the way grey hunters work (that said, long fangs have squad leaders so it's not totally antithetical to SWs).