Updating Blood Claws

[Grey Mage]

10pts for a stat boost is a more or less GW standard practice between 40k and fantasy.

[Valerian]

I posted this very early on in this thread, and I'm still convinced this is all that is required to fix all of the Claws entries:

 

"I would do two things to Blood Claws, Sky Claws, and Swift Claws, and I think they'd be "fixed". First, allow up to two models to take a Special CCW, and one model can take a Special weapon (thus, exactly the opposite of a Grey Hunter pack), keep the option for one to be a MotW model. Second, keep a rule that says they have to attempt a Charge/Assault when within 6", but get rid of the rule that prevents them from shooting when not escorted; that rule sucks, and really keeps them from competing with Grey Hunters. Lastly, decrease the costs for Jump Packs and Bikes for Wolf Guard that are assigned as Pack Leaders for Sky/Swift Claws- it is currently ridiculous."

 

I'd easily pay 15 points per model for that, as now I'd have a reliable dedicated Assault Unit, that isn't redundant against Grey Hunters, and is worth the points invested. The fixes are simple and don't require a complete revision of the unit entry.

[Baba Lem]

Mmm good point! But I might want to just keep it simple with the alpha.

 

The three special rules work for now. As for Blood Claw special rules: Red Snow (Rage) replaces or updates berserk charge. Headstrong (Stubborn) is pretty self explanatory.. The alpha helps when it comes with Ld test. Murder-Make (Rampage) helps when your 20 man pack gets cut down and you're finally able to get into close combat. A cornered wolf is more dangerous, and I can see the glory hungry claws fighting against all the odds.

 

Thoughts?

 

I think giving them Rage and Rampage kind of takes away from their purpose. Aren't they supposed to be a big pack, running into enemies like a winter wave? If you give them a special rule that makes them good in numbers and good in low numbers, you're making them too universal. I wouldn't give them Rampage. Doesn't seem like a Bloodclaw skill, more like a general wolf ability and that is covered by Counter Attack.

[maverik_girl]

I think giving them Rage and Rampage kind of takes away from their purpose. Aren't they supposed to be a big pack, running into enemies like a winter wave? If you give them a special rule that makes them good in numbers and good in low numbers, you're making them too universal. I wouldn't give them Rampage. Doesn't seem like a Bloodclaw skill, more like a general wolf ability and that is covered by Counter Attack.

LOL yes they're suppose to be a big pack (20 men strong). But you forget, how do 20 space marines get across the table? by the time they get into close combat, their numbers will be cut down allot. A reason rampage kicks in. Think about it. You're a hot-headed Blood Claw, your pack mates get slaughtered from enemy fire, you finally get into close combat and avenge your brothers while fighting outnumbered with a WS3 no doubt. So what is too universal about them? In my eyes it balances out... They lack mobility and transport. They have low Ld and WS. By the time they get into the fight chances are your down by half, or 3/4 if you're lucky. Blood Claws are the supposed melee infantry shock troops for the rout. I play tested it and it was fun... At the end of the day, that's what matters in the hobby, unfortunately not everyone plays to have fun anymore.

[skeletoro]

In some ways it might work better if they got the extra attacks after taking a certain percentage casualties, rather than being outnumbered, then.

[Khine]

In some ways it might work better if they got the extra attacks after taking a certain percentage casualties, rather than being outnumbered, then.

 

Or could go one further. Add the cost of the Alpha into the base cost, make him a mandatory, once he dies then the reins on the rest are unleashed and they get their rampant?

[skeletoro]

I was kinda wondering about something like that, too. BUT I think it would be hard to balance. Imagine if the rules encouraged you to try and get the alpha dead ASAP! Purposely putting him out the front, challenging ICs, etc. Or perhaps you'd want to keep the alpha alive while closing on the enemy, but as soon as you'd reached melee, you want to get him dead, quick. Kinda weird if the rules reward that kind of behaviour!!

[Wulfebane]

Bear with me, this ended up longer than expected.
 

 

In some ways it might work better if they got the extra attacks after taking a certain percentage casualties, rather than being outnumbered, then.

Or could go one further. Add the cost of the Alpha into the base cost, make him a mandatory, once he dies then the reins on the rest are unleashed and they get their rampant?

Given the minor improvements proposed for an "Alpha" sergeant character, this suggestion feels counterintuitive. I, personally, would find myself trying to kill the Alpha before melee, just to gain Rampage.

I like the idea of making the Alpha a mandatory base cost. Additionally, we're the only codex (to my knowledge atm without reference) that adds to our packs one model at a time beyond the minimum pack size. I personally like smaller "skirmish" packs, especially when not in killpoint matches. But while I agree that BCs should be bigger packs, it'd be nice to make smaller packs enticing for those not wanting a huge investment, but still keep them viable and desireable compared to GH or even larger BC packs.

My proposal:

So while we know a minimal GH pack is 75pts for 5, I would propose a pack of 5 BC to be 65pts. With that, you still get berserk charge, headstrong, and all of the current weapon options. It may also promote a desire to use Lukas more often.

For an additional  85pts (bringing you even with a full GH pack in points) you gain another 5 BCs, totaling 10, one of which is the Alpha. This will make the Alpha a mandatory purchase and justify the rules he grants by, in turn, making the additional 4 BCs mandatory as a "bulk" purchase. The Alpha will both negate Headstrong and confer Rampage and Fleet while alive (considering his inspiring presence and excellent sense of direction), as well as boast a WS/BS of 4. You will also be permitted an additional special ccw and MotW. I'd leave his Ld at 8, because if we need a Ld boost, we'd just attach a WG/IC (not even GHs or Scouts have a Ld9 and they're vets by comparison to a BC).

After reaching 10, you may purchase additional BCs at a cost of 15pts per model, to a maximum of 15. You are permitted a third special ccw once 15 models are reached, for free**. This is the big incentive for a larger pack, despite the USRs. Invest in the big pack, get a free fist.

 

So for the full 15man pack, you still come out to the same price you pay now, but with a little more "Oomf" in the USRs, with detrimental consequence to losing the pack alpha. However, a 5man pack is now desirable compared to a 5man GH pack for purposes of deployment objective campers due to the initial reduced cost.

Decided to write it out:

---

Blood Claws.............................. 65 points

Blood Claw..............WS3 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+ In
Blood Claw Alpha... WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+ In(ch)

Composition:

• 5 Blood Claws

Unit Type/Wargear/Special Rules/Dedicated Transport:

• see C:SW p.89

Blood Claw Alpha Special Rules:

• Barking Orders (Rampage & Fleet)

Options:

• May include 4 additional Blood Claws and 1 Alpha Blood Claw (sergeant character)..... 85 points
• If the squad numbers 10 models, additional models may be purchased up to a maximum of 15.... 15 pts/model
• One Blood Claw may replace his close combat weapon with one of the following:
• ---Power weapon..... 15 points
• ---Power fist............. 25 points
• If the squad numbers ten models, a second Blood Claw may replace his close combat weapon with a weapon from the above list.
• If the squad numbers fifteen models, a third Blood Claw may replace his close combat weapon with a weapon from the above list at no additional cost.
• One Blood Claw may take Mark of the Wulfen, if there is a pack Alpha in the squad..... 15 points
• All other wargear options, see C:SW p.89.

*EDIT: Looking back over the thread, oddly enough, dswanick made a very, VERY similar scheme to mine, minus some USRs and cost/alpha situations. :3 Great minds??

[skeletoro]

My intuition about the weird situation of providing incentives for killing the alpha was the same as yours, Wulfebane. I like your solution quite a bit.  It also differentiates WGPLs from alphas, which is necessary, I think.

 

No wargear options for the alpha though? Or does "Blood Claw Alpha" count as "Blood Claw" for the purposes of "One Blood claw make take..."?

 

It seems a bit odd for the alpha to not get access to the good wargear in the unit. On the other hand, I admit it's a buff to allow the WS4 model to take it, especially given he's a character (you could give the alpha an axe and give a WGPL a sword or claw and cover both bases cheaply).

 

Also, what are your thoughts on ICs/WGPLs and Rampage/Fleet? If fleet didn't transfer to the entire unit (including WGPLs and attached ICs), it could lead to issues. That said, I can imagine wanting to put melee ICs in blood claw units a lot if they also got rampage out of it! :)

[Wulfebane]

Yeah, for brevity's sake in the write-up I didn't copy over all the wargear options from the codex, but I intended the Alpha to function as a Blood claw for gearing purposes. Yes, it would be a bonus giving the better gear to a better stat model, but at the same time, he's a character and so can be singled out for precision shots and challenges. Meaning it'll be harder giving him the fist and hoping to hide him in the pack. It'll also make him a bigger target, and given he is the only one granting the "barking orders" you really don't want him to be.

 

I did mull over IC interaction with this write-up. I'll admit I'm concerned about Ragnar's most; his Insane Bravado in combination with Rampage. My thoughts are this.. In order to give Barking Orders to Ragnar means you would have had to purchase the Alpha (and by default 9 other BC). This puts the pack at 11, eliminating all transport options except the LRC/LLR, or just footing it. Fleet would be a small boon for the latter, but nearly inconsequential for rolling up in a land raider. If you should footslog the unit, you'll undoubtedly take casualties, potentially enough to trigger Rampage, but also risk losing either Ragnar or the Alpha or both before reaching melee. Rampage/Insane Bravado with make up the loss, but with either scenario, you've already invested a lot of points into the unit, evening out the bonuses the unit grants with a lack of other units to support it.

 

Keeping the Barking Orders rule on the Alpha means if you did want a small 5-man unit to stick an IC with (as unlikely as that may be), they will only negate the Headstrong rule and won't benefit from Rampage or Fleet.

 

The other concern is Saga of the Hunter, for which I don't have a good solution other than the consolation of the unit potentially missing 3 turns off the table.

 

Ultimately, I'm not concerned with anyone pitching a fit over Fleet. Its a nice, fluffy, and fitting rule for a raging horde of young Wolves, and truly only benefits the ones you're not putting in a land raider, though not considerably overpowered. I am fairly confident that Rampage will not be seen as too extraneous due to a larger desire to take 15 in a pack, meaning you will need to lose at least 5 models before it even goes into effect 90% of the time.

[Wintera]

Would like to see them get a little cheaper and a bunch of unwieldily melee weapons like maces and axes would add some nice flavour and variation from the grey hunter models.