WIP: The Thousand Mercies

[Firepower]

The Thousand Mercies

I don't really like this name - feels more Word Bearer warband than Dark Angels successor chapter. Angels of Mercy would be a very DA name (even moreso if you can find a synonym that ends with "tion" ).

I like deviating from the norm a bit in my DIY names. Not completely, radically and unnecessarily but to the point that yet another DA successor with the word "Angel" and a "tion" suffix makes me cringe. The name is likely to change if the theme of the army changes, though.

A Dark Angels successor of the 10th founding, the Thousand Mercies’ initiation into the Unforgiven was entrusted to a coterie led by Master Augustine of the Dark Angels 3rd Company.

That's not a Dark Angels name. They're all very Biblical.

...sarcasm?

I already sort of went over that. In terms of theology history, Augustine was the one who put a real emphasis on the concept of original sin. The revelation of Augustine the Space Marine (catchy, ain't it?) is a similar sort of reevaluation of the original DA Chapter cult.

So it may not be Uriel, Azazel, Ezekiel, Michael, or Azrael, but it is "biblical" in a way.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to do. I read the thread, and am now even more confused.

That's actually more or less the problem that I ran into

I like the whole Clementia angle. I'd actually think the best thing to do wouldn't be deprivation etc, but telling the story of the Dark Angels in allegory (which, IIRC, the DA already do to some extent). Train them for the knowledge beforehand, basically. The progression through the Clementia prepares them for progression through the knowledge of the Fallen. Then you can pepper the whole thing with allegories from the Clementia.

I used the Clementia as a way to really nail home the scholarly aspect that I was going for. That's one of the few things I am still sure about. I want scholarly Astartes

I fumbled around with the idea of the Clementia having different sections for different specialties of the Chapter as well, i.e. a book for the Chaplains, a book for the Librarians, a book for the Techmarines, each tiered with their own microcosmic rungs and secret texts. But that's a level of detail I didn't want to get into until I had a better idea of where I was going.

Hell, you could even go all Circles of Zerthimon on things. The ability to understand one aspect of the Clementia is what gives you the ability to unlock the next (somehow). Basically automated induction into the Inner Circle.

I don't get the reference. However it does sound vaguely similar to Zen Buddhism...vaguely.

Anyway, I do like the idea that with each new text a Marine is awarded, he must come to a conclusion as to its purpose or lesson before he is awarded another chapter or excerpt. The first one would almost undoubtedly be a lesson on the value and purpose of secrets, to lay a foundation for their further climb into the Chapter's lore.

Also, surely he would have gotten around to naming the chapter by the time he died.

Probably, yeah.

In any case, going all masochistic seems a bit dull to me. Religious zealotry is so passe. I dunno...what are you trying to do and what are you concerned about?

A bit passe, sure. The masochism was to be secondary to the scholarly aspect. But the scholarly aspect was originally secondary itself to the notion of their unique disposition. That was generally going to be a philosophy that death is the one mercy anyone can expect in life, and so in killing those who are deemed unfit to live is in truth doing them a mercy. Mainly I just really liked the idea of somber, almost sad Marines. "Hush now, and let us show you mercy," delivered with a kind smile and a sword.

The problem is, I couldn't quite find a way to cement or justify that disposition, at least not in a permanent way. I hit a huge writer's block that tormented me for a couple of weeks, and then decided the answer would come when the answer would come.

But it didn't. That philosophy would inevitably lead to some insane conclusion (like "KILL EVERYONE!") without a proper bulwark, and yet there wasn't any such limiter I could come up with that didn't seem obviously forced.

Consequentially, there really isn't much left of the idea aside from the Clementia Angelus. That's the only thing that doesn't fall apart without the original, irrevocably flawed premise. Yet it was the potential of the original premise which had me interested in a new IA to begin with.

Sooo, basically, unless there's some ingenious solution I haven't stumbled upon yet, the Mercies went into limbo until I could think of a whole new idea to stimulate my interest.

[Octavulg]

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I like deviating from the norm a bit in my DIY names. Not completely, radically and unnecessarily but to the point that yet another DA successor with the word "Angel" and a "tion" suffix makes me cringe. The name is likely to change if the theme of the army changes, though.

Boo. Hiss. Convention is what's for dinner. Etc.

What's a singular Marine of your chapter, then? A Mercy? As a rule, a name that doesn't singularize well isn't a great name.

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...sarcasm?

Not at all. As anyone but a Roman Catholic can tell you, Saint Augustine isn't mentioned in the Bible.

Personally, I'd go with Camael - the angel who expelled Adam from the Garden of Eden (and thus was integral in the whole original sin thing). Original sin apparently was first mentioned by a guy called Irenaeus, which sounds a bit more Dark Angely. Chaeremon or Cassian might also work. Good names to use for something, otherwise. Augustine is just so unsubtle.

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That's actually more or less the problem that I ran into tongue.png

Oh. Good?

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I don't get the reference.

Go play Planescape: Torment. Then come back.

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Anyway, I do like the idea that with each new text a Marine is awarded, he must come to a conclusion as to its purpose or lesson before he is awarded another chapter or excerpt. The first one would almost undoubtedly be a lesson on the value and purpose of secrets, to lay a foundation for their further climb into the Chapter's lore.

Then hopefully you'll like what I suggest below.

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Sooo, basically, unless there's some ingenious solution I haven't stumbled upon yet, the Mercies went into limbo until I could think of a whole new idea to stimulate my interest. confused.gif

OK.

Chapter Master (call him Camael, damn your eyes ) was more philosophical than most. He extrapolated from the Fallen to a larger view of the universe. Your Chapter believes that humanity and all other species are inherently weak. It is this that allows Chaos to exist. Humanity is superior because it has recognized the danger of these tendencies and is working to overcome them (the Eldar are sort-of OK because they worked it out, but since it took Slaanesh to do it, they still suck). The horrific emotions most beings feel lead to the creation of entities that will devour the souls of those people. This is, to some extent, sin. SUch annihilation is a horrible death. Being saved from such annihilation is, of course, a mercy.

Humans must be taught the error of their ways, and if they do not see, they must be shown mercy. Xenos must be shown mercy, for they will not learn. Mercy must come to all who deserve it, and it must be brought by those who understand enough to be merciful.

UIn your chapter's view, the Dark Angels have nothing to fear from the Fallen on a philosophical or spiritual basis - they have overcome their weakness. The danger of the Fallen is twofold - first, that they might get the Dark Angels killed. Which would suck. Second, that they are humans who are tools of Chaos - they know the dangers of Chaos, and have worked to embrace them anyway. This is the most dangerous of possible dangers. Otherwise, the Fallen are simply a symbol of the inherently weakness of Mankind - a demonstration that cuts to the very core of the chapter's identity.

All of this is taught through the Clementia. The Clementia is not just a set of books. It's a massive carving/inscription/statue in the Fortress Monastery. It moves. People don't really understand it - the Chapter Master built it with the help of the Techmarines AND the Librarians, and it kind of shows.

The first use of the Clementia must be taught - one must be shown how to manipulate it. Once one does that, once can read the first lessons. Initiates then return to their teachers and explain what they have learned, and the teachers show them how to unlock further lessons (or smack them on the head and tell them to think more).

Except, of course, once you reach certain levels the Clementia itself begins to tell you how to unlock new lessons - lessons are found all over the place, and are often simply a matter of perspective and a certain point of view. The secret to new lessons is hidden in the older ones. New lessons are found all the time - some are shared, some are hidden and kept secret by their finders. Some claim to have found lessons, then can't find them again. And, of course, amongst the higher echelons, debate rages about which lessons are more important, and what the true interpretation is. Often all the interpretations are wrong, and a few centuries later some lexicanium reading an old debate will realize the truth and unlock a further lesson.

The Clementia teaches about the nature of weakness, the nature of strength, and the nature of the Warp. Its final lessons are not those of the Fallen, surprisingly - indeed, no one is entirely sure whether its final lessons have even been reached.

In any case, progression through the Clementia is progression through the Chapter (in some ways. You still have to be competent). In some eras, orthodoxy has reigned. In others, everything's been a free-form debate and the chapter has almost been a democracy. But the Clementia is always what guides the chapter's thoughts. And in knowing the teachings of the Clementia, the Chapter has become stronger.

Not as much original sin, but lots of scholar and lots of possibility to explore tetchy little interpretations of the Chapter's philosophy. And certainly you can have them trying to explore the deeper philosophical meaning of the Fallen and other such concerns. And you can have the whole "mercy by saving people from making their fate in the Warp worse" angle running under it.

That work?

EDIT: Oh, this avoids kill everyone through two methods: first, the Clementia mostly teaches not to do that. Second, killing everyone would feed Khorne. Mercy must be balanced with allowing people to exercise their free will.

EDIT 2: Also, they're too busy arguing to kill everyone.

[Firepower]

Boo. Hiss. Convention is what's for dinner. Etc.

What's a singular Marine of your chapter, then? A Mercy? As a rule, a name that doesn't singularize well isn't a great name.

Like I said, the name will probably get reconsidered, but it certainly will not be an 'Angel of -ion' name

Rules are made to be broken. I'm just bending them, at most

Not at all. As anyone but a Roman Catholic can tell you, Saint Augustine isn't mentioned in the Bible.

Personally, I'd go with Camael - the angel who expelled Adam from the Garden of Eden (and thus was integral in the whole original sin thing). Original sin apparently was first mentioned by a guy called Irenaeus, which sounds a bit more Dark Angely. Chaeremon or Cassian might also work. Good names to use for something, otherwise. Augustine is just so unsubtle.

Hadraniel may be a bit more appropriate if going with angelic names. Not so much for a role in the notion of original sin, but as a gatekeeper to knowledge, whom only surrendered truth when God browbeat him. In terms of carrying the metaphor, the Chapter Master's legacy only reluctantly reveals his knowledge bit by bit through the tiered and puzzle-like nature of the Clementia, but shares it nonetheless as such wisdom is a necessity for the betterment of the Chapter, and by transition mankind.

Chapter Master (call him Camael, damn your eyes ) was more philosophical than most. He extrapolated from the Fallen to a larger view of the universe. Your Chapter believes that humanity and all other species are inherently weak. It is this that allows Chaos to exist. Humanity is superior because it has recognized the danger of these tendencies and is working to overcome them (the Eldar are sort-of OK because they worked it out, but since it took Slaanesh to do it, they still suck).

More or less the foundation, yes.

The horrific emotions most beings feel lead to the creation of entities that will devour the souls of those people.

Hmm. Do even Astartes know this? Or at least non-psychic Astartes?

This is, to some extent, sin. SUch annihilation is a horrible death. Being saved from such annihilation is, of course, a mercy.

So then, moving away from original sin into the notion of actual, fulfilled sin. If death is only a mercy after that point, the revelation of original sin is somewhat pushed to the sidelines, if not altogether arbitrary.

Humans must be taught the error of their ways, and if they do not see, they must be shown mercy.

So, back to the original sin notion then? This sort of means the Mercies would take it upon themselves to proselytize the nature of Chaos (or at least its temptations) to the masses. That strikes me as a no-no.

If we're talking post-sin again, being shown the error of their ways would be death by default, wouldn't it?

Xenos must be shown mercy, for they will not learn.

But of course

In your chapter's view, the Dark Angels have nothing to fear from the Fallen on a philosophical or spiritual basis - they have overcome their weakness. The danger of the Fallen is twofold - first, that they might get the Dark Angels killed. Which would suck. Second, that they are humans who are tools of Chaos - they know the dangers of Chaos, and have worked to embrace them anyway. This is the most dangerous of possible dangers. Otherwise, the Fallen are simply a symbol of the inherently weakness of Mankind - a demonstration that cuts to the very core of the chapter's identity.

This seems to sideline the significance of the Fallen quite a bit. If the Fallen are the source of Augustine/Cameal/Hadraniel's revelation, it seems they would play a more central role. I'd think that rather than simply saying 'We're better than that now,' the Fallen would instead represent the need for constant and unrelenting evaluation and correction of their weakness. It comes down to whether the inherent weakness is inescapable and something that must be wrestled with throughout life (more original sinny) or somethign that can be more or less disregarded once you've become aware of it. The latter smacks of dangerous and almost inappropriate arrogance.

All of this is taught through the Clementia. The Clementia is not just a set of books. It's a massive carving/inscription/statue in the Fortress Monastery. It moves. People don't really understand it - the Chapter Master built it with the help of the Techmarines AND the Librarians, and it kind of shows.

I like this idea. I'm thinking a sort of magical-machine style inscription of massive scale that frequently shifts and changes to reveal, alter and conceal teachings over time. Rubbings/recordings of the Clementia over time would form a massive cumulative and ever growing reservoir of teachings for the Chapter to pour over, allowing for endless interpretations and such. That would also explain why the whole Chapter wouldn't need to 'share' the Clementia by allowing for individual pursuits.

The first use of the Clementia must be taught - one must be shown how to manipulate it. Once one does that, once can read the first lessons. Initiates then return to their teachers and explain what they have learned, and the teachers show them how to unlock further lessons (or smack them on the head and tell them to think more).

Now that sounds like Zen Buddhism But again, seeing as there is only one Clementia, and there are 1000 marines looking to it, the first lesson might need o be done en masse with groups of recruits. Or it could be done privately (with a lot of queuing)to form a sort of Master and Apprentice relationship...dunno yet.

Perhaps the thing is so big that it runs through several levels of the Fortress Monastery, and can be accessed from dozens of locations.

Except, of course, once you reach certain levels the Clementia itself begins to tell you how to unlock new lessons - lessons are found all over the place, and are often simply a matter of perspective and a certain point of view. The secret to new lessons is hidden in the older ones. New lessons are found all the time - some are shared, some are hidden and kept secret by their finders. Some claim to have found lessons, then can't find them again. And, of course, amongst the higher echelons, debate rages about which lessons are more important, and what the true interpretation is. Often all the interpretations are wrong, and a few centuries later some lexicanium reading an old debate will realize the truth and unlock a further lesson.

The Clementia teaches about the nature of weakness, the nature of strength, and the nature of the Warp. Its final lessons are not those of the Fallen, surprisingly - indeed, no one is entirely sure whether its final lessons have even been reached.

It would make sense that knowledge of the Fallen to at least some extent would be kept as oral tradition or the more orthodox Inner Circle. The Clementia prepares the mind and the soul for the burden of knowledge, which is granted by the Chapter's higher echelons when the body is likewise prepared by the trials of war...or something.

In any case, progression through the Clementia is progression through the Chapter (in some ways. You still have to be competent). In some eras, orthodoxy has reigned. In others, everything's been a free-form debate and the chapter has almost been a democracy. But the Clementia is always what guides the chapter's thoughts. And in knowing the teachings of the Clementia, the Chapter has become stronger.

The shifting Clementia combined with records of past phases would indeed lead to a whole range of potential Chapter philosophies. It also has a subtext of ominous manipulation, the potential that the Clementia is consciously shaping and bending the Chapter to some nefarious end of Augustine's or its own devices. It's something to hint at, not just spell out explicitly like this

EDIT 2: Also, they're too busy arguing to kill everyone.

This...this bit could work. Hm.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Anyway, from the opening comments, do you see what I meant by the issues that come with the notion of (original) sin? It all becomes circular and incoherent pretty easily. Bouncing back and forth from the nature of sin inherent and sin manifest, the role of the Fallen in the birth of the philosophy and their position in Chapter philosophy after the fact, the Chapter's own susceptibility or impunity to sin, when precisely is death a mercy, and a proper fail-safe to prevent 'granting mercy' to everyone they come across.

Getting all the ducks in a row has been....irritating. I've step-by-stepped it in bullet points now and then, but it always ties itself in a knot at one point or another.

[Octavulg]

Like I said, the name will probably get reconsidered, but it certainly will not be an 'Angel of -ion' name tongue.png

Angels of Mercificationation is a great name, and if you don't agree, you're wrong. Fact.

Hadraniel may be a bit more appropriate if going with angelic names. Not so much for a role in the notion of original sin, but as a gatekeeper to knowledge, whom only surrendered truth when God browbeat him. In terms of carrying the metaphor, the Chapter Master's legacy only reluctantly reveals his knowledge bit by bit through the tiered and puzzle-like nature of the Clementia, but shares it nonetheless as such wisdom is a necessity for the betterment of the Chapter, and by transition mankind.

That'd work. The only problem is that Hadraniel is kind of unwieldly as an actual name. But then, that's his problem.

Hmm. Do even Astartes know this? Or at least non-psychic Astartes?

Good question. I'm going to go with "yes". Higher-end Dark Angels at least probably would. Hard to resist temptation if you don't understand where it came from.

Besides, the fluff around knowledge of Chaos is so screwed up you can probably get away with almost anything.

So then, moving away from original sin into the notion of actual, fulfilled sin. If death is only a mercy after that point, the revelation of original sin is somewhat pushed to the sidelines, if not altogether arbitrary.

Yes and no, I think. Everyone's going to feed the Warp. It's inevitable. But minimizing your feeding of the Warp is the best we can hope for, and is the sort of thing people should do.

Opinion may have become divided since, of course.

So, back to the original sin notion then? This sort of means the Mercies would take it upon themselves to proselytize the nature of Chaos (or at least its temptations) to the masses. That strikes me as a no-no.

I'm pretty sure the Imperial Cult already does so to some extent, so it's probably more OK than you'd think. Besides, they're philosophers. Practical implementation is for peons.

If we're talking post-sin again, being shown the error of their ways would be death by default, wouldn't it?

That is the meaning I have chosen for that particular euphemism, yes. Be good, or get killed in order to save you from a more horrific death down the road.

This seems to sideline the significance of the Fallen quite a bit. If the Fallen are the source of Augustine/Cameal/Hadraniel's revelation, it seems they would play a more central role. I'd think that rather than simply saying 'We're better than that now,' the Fallen would instead represent the need for constant and unrelenting evaluation and correction of their weakness. It comes down to whether the inherent weakness is inescapable and something that must be wrestled with throughout life (more original sinny) or somethign that can be more or less disregarded once you've become aware of it. The latter smacks of dangerous and almost inappropriate arrogance.

A fair distinction, and an important one. Still, I think that's distinct from how a lot of the Dark Angels view them. I will attempt to refine my statement: capturing the Fallen doesn't solve the spiritual problems that face the Thousand Mercies. They still do it, but the actual capture isn't a big deal.

The Fallen as a whole are a constant warning and requirement for vigilance. But the Thousand Mercies don't think capturing the Fallen somehow makes the faults of the Thousand Mercies less.

I like this idea. I'm thinking a sort of magical-machine style inscription of massive scale that frequently shifts and changes to reveal, alter and conceal teachings over time. Rubbings/recordings of the Clementia over time would form a massive cumulative and ever growing reservoir of teachings for the Chapter to pour over, allowing for endless interpretations and such. That would also explain why the whole Chapter wouldn't need to 'share' the Clementia by allowing for individual pursuits.

Could do. I'd keep whether it actually shifts ambiguous, personally. Ambiguity is almost always more fun.

Rubbings and readings would, I trust, be seen as inferior to the actual Clementia, of course. Or there'd be debate about it.

Perhaps the thing is so big that it runs through several levels of the Fortress Monastery, and can be accessed from dozens of locations.

Most definitely.

It would make sense that knowledge of the Fallen to at least some extent would be kept as oral tradition or the more orthodox Inner Circle. The Clementia prepares the mind and the soul for the burden of knowledge, which is granted by the Chapter's higher echelons when the body is likewise prepared by the trials of war...or something.

Could do. I kind of like the idea of Marines happening upon the knowledge, which means they're ready for the knowledge.

The shifting Clementia combined with records of past phases would indeed lead to a whole range of potential Chapter philosophies. It also has a subtext of ominous manipulation, the potential that the Clementia is consciously shaping and bending the Chapter to some nefarious end of Augustine's or its own devices. It's something to hint at, not just spell out explicitly like this tongue.png

Exactly. Perhaps the device has been corrupted by Chaos, even. Or not. NO ONE KNOWS!!!!!!!

You know. Secrets, half-truths and ambiguity. And people arguing about them. It's basically the Liber, but as a chapter.

Anyway, from the opening comments, do you see what I meant by the issues that come with the notion of (original) sin? It all becomes circular and incoherent pretty easily.

It's theology. It'll do that. That's a feature, not a bug. Embrace the madness. Have the IA writer be unsure exactly what the chapter's views on the whole thing are. Broad strokes are clear. Details are not, and the Chapter's busy fighting about the details anyway.

[Firepower]

 

 

 

Anyway, from the opening comments, do you see what I meant by the issues that come with the notion of (original) sin? It all becomes circular and incoherent pretty easily.

It's theology. It'll do that. That's a feature, not a bug. Embrace the madness. Have the IA writer be unsure exactly what the chapter's views on the whole thing are. Broad strokes are clear. Details are not, and the Chapter's busy fighting about the details anyway.

 

Well, if it wasn't at the very core of the IA, I would go with the convoluted approach. But let me try and lay out the issue. Bear in mind that even laying out the version as it is now, even broken, is a bit tricky.

 

So, original sin. All humans are sinful, in that they have a capacity to sin. So then the approach is to acknowledge and then wrestle with that nascent treachery (still love that term). Some fail, and become corrupt. Aliens are inherently corrupt. Therefor, death is a universal mercy, either by relieving the pure from the burden of resisting the NT, or by putting an end to a life spent in sin...well, more sin than it started with.

 

Issues with that premise- what's to keep them from killing everyone, since death seems great all around? Why would the Marines consider it a mercy to kill the impure, by which I mean how do they view life as a traitor/sinner/impure soul? And if death is the universal relief, and granted readily to the impure, what would lead them to bother with capturing and interrogating the Fallen?

 

Alternative scenario:

Nascent treachery is not seen as a sin in itself, but merely the chink in the armor of humanity's collective souls. Life is spent understanding and resisting that weakness. The Chapter does what it can to spread the message, so humanity may know how to fight Chaos' influence. Those that fail out of ignorance are to be pitied. Those that fail willingly or revel in their corruption after the fact are likewise pitied. Those born impure (xenos) are pitied. The pitiful are granted mercy in death, to free them from their failings.

 

Issues with that premise- It's hardly any different from a standard Marine chapter. Every Astartes knows full well that anyone can be corrupted by a lack of character or faith. The only difference is that they try to tell others as much, and arbitrarily view those that fail with pity rather than hate. The original sin notion is pretty much moot. The Fallen have no special standing or purpose.

 

Alternative scenario:

Nascent treachery is a subjective notion, undefined but obsessed over by the scholarly Chapter. Sometimes it is a sin in itself, other times just a weakness inherent in all souls.

 

Issues- Should be obvious. As a core of the Chapter's identity, having it undefined is lousy writing. Obsessing over a completely amorphous subject makes no rational sense. The Chapter ends up being a fraternity of 1000 simpletons gathered around a very big, very complicated machine asking it for orders.

[Octavulg]

Dammit, Firepower.

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So, original sin. All humans are sinful, in that they have a capacity to sin. So then the approach is to acknowledge and then wrestle with that nascent treachery (still love that term). Some fail, and become corrupt. Aliens are inherently corrupt. Therefor, death is a universal mercy, either by relieving the pure from the burden of resisting the NT, or by putting an end to a life spent in sin...well, more sin than it started with.

I'd say everyone's inherently corrupt, but humanity possesses the capacity to work against their own corruption.

I'd go with the practical, scientific mercy. At the end of their lives, if they live lives of sin, a Warp creature will eat their souls. If they've been sinning, killing them now might prevent that, or at least make the digestion process less painful. Or at least weaken the Warp creature.

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Issues with that premise- what's to keep them from killing everyone, since death seems great all around?

1) It'd feed Khorne. And possibly Nurgle.

2) They haven't agreed on whether that's what should be done yet. They're still arguing about it, basically.

3) Let's face it, some people deserve getting their souls eaten by demons. The fact that the chapter can provide mercy doesn't somehow mean they HAVE to.

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Why would the Marines consider it a mercy to kill the impure, by which I mean how do they view life as a traitor/sinner/impure soul?

See above. It's a mercy because you're limiting their torment after death.

The Chapter don't necessarily have to understand this on a scientific basis - lessening their punishment at the hands of the Emperor would be an equally reasonable way to frame it.

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And if death is the universal relief, and granted readily to the impure, what would lead them to bother with capturing and interrogating the Fallen?

1) As a reminder that failure lurks around every corner.

2) Because all the other Unforgiven are doing it.

3) Because many of the Fallen are still high-level tools of Chaos, and knowing what they're doing is kind of useful.

4) Because they can provide valuable information on the nature of sin and redemption.

5) Because it is important that they can be granted the appropriate mercy, and a repentant Fallen deserves mercy more than one who is not repentant. Yes, they could kill them both (and will). But then they won't know which of them repented and which didn't. Which, frankly, is probably enough of a reason for a scholarly chapter.

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Issues- Should be obvious. As a core of the Chapter's identity, having it undefined is lousy writing. Obsessing over a completely amorphous subject makes no rational sense. The Chapter ends up being a fraternity of 1000 simpletons gathered around a very big, very complicated machine asking it for orders.

I would point out that none of these are incompatible with 40K or religion as practiced by many cultures in the past. Indeed, from my observations of modern philosophy and theology, much of it is obsessing over amorphous subjects.

I really don't think this bit is an obstacle at all. The core of the chapter simply becomes the chapter's nature as seekers of truth and philosophers as much as original sin. They become theologians whose philosophy happens to be original sin, basically.