Tactics against Tyranids

[Stupid Waldo]

I have a friend who plays tyranids, and seeing as we had a lot of free time in the last 48 hours we ended up playing 4 games.  I lost 3 of them (and they were terrible losses.  I'm still getting used to rules and everything, but are there any really solid ways to put the hurt on the tyranids?  I think the 2 biggest problems (aside from my shoddy dice rolling) are his 2 tyrants, especially the flyrant.  Any opinions?

[Disruptor_fe404]

I face double dakka Biomancy flyrants. They put enough hurt on things that his Hive Guard tend to get a free pass to chillax and take pot shots at things.

 

Trygon and Doom both wreak havoc, and they hit the table turn 2 on a 2+.

 

A reliable way to kill the flyrants is quite important, IMO.

 

What Codex are you using? For perspective, I'm using a pure Deathwing list, and my record against them is far, far from stellar (but the games are pretty entertaining).

[infornography]

Flyrants are tough, especially if the player is good with using cover and rolls iron arm.  Grounding and pounding is about the only strategy that works against them.  Use skyfire against him in the hopes of grounding him without wasting a unit's shooting.  If you manage to ground him, don't let him ever get back up. 

 

Doom isn't as big a threat as he seems.  Yes, a really bad roll can result in losing tons of infantry, but you get cover saves against the wounds and SM have good leadership so you won't usually be hurt too badly.  Best thing to kill him is a power fist or other S8 if you have any to spare.  Instant death deals with him quick.  That 3++ is a pain though.

 

Don't under estimate tervigons in melee.  Those things are actually pretty nasty in a brawl especially if they have crushing claws, warp speed, or both.  Best thing to take them out is actually sniper scouts.  poisoned attacks don't care about that high toughness stat.

 

Swarms aren't a huge threat to marines since you will probably have bolter fire to spare.  Don't let genestealers assault.  6th ed gave you a turn to burn them down before they hit, use it.  Bolters will shred them.  Note Ymgarl Genestealers are another story, they will kill something.  Just accept that and wipe them out after you lose whatever they attack.  Assault cannons are best against them.

 

Trygons are big and intimidating.  Best thing to do to them is bog them down in melee.  Unfortunately Space Marines don't have any cheap tarpit units so second best thing to do is again scout snipers.  Seriously those guys come into their own against the swarm. 

 

Hive guard and biovores are problems that you are probably best off ignoring as they can strike outside of line of sight and aren't likely to be a HUGE problem, but they will kill your transports and snipe out heavy weapons.  At least neither of them can beat 3+ saves.

[Stupid Waldo]

Yeah most of this was stuff I figured.  Any ideas on what to take from C:SM?  I have just about one of everything, and i've continuously tried to change things up, but none of it has worked to any effect.  In the smaller battles we play (1000 points) I just can't field enough power to fight him (as generally all my scoring units get killed very quickly) and while usually I do better in larger games (owing mostly to a land raider redeemer which annihilates everything he has), recently I just can't get my land raider close before it gets sniped by his hive tyrant and hive guard (who just glance it to death in 2 or so turns) and then my terminators have to walk which usually has them end up dying

[Rohaen]

Thunderfire cannons are inexpensive and remarkably effective. They likely won't take out his big units, though can decimate his assaulty units in combination with your assault cannon or heavy bolter fire.

[DarkGuard]

Missile launchers, missile launchers and wait, missile launchers!

 

I kid you not, the weapon we have cheap access to in nearly every slot of our Codex is the best weapon for Nids. It takes wounds off MCs easily, it instant kills Warrior sized creatures, and it can blow up hordes when enough are concentrated on it. Plus, if you use (or ally in) Dark Angel units they can ground Flying Hive Tyrants using flakk missiles.

 

Add in a few flamers and some plasma for overwatch and MC heavy lists, and maybe a counter-assault unit in case anything break through, and you should be good as gold.

 

But seriously, massed missile launchers is the scariest thing that a Nid player can face, and that gets worst if you also stick everything in transports.

[Stupid Waldo]

Okay, so my devs should take 4 missile launchers instead of the 2 HB and plasmas that they have been? and as for the flakk, my gaming group is really big on custom rules and what not, so we allowed any space marine force to upgrade to flakk missiles for the associated cost in the dark angels codex.

[DarkGuard]

Well then, take the missile launchers.

 

Heavy bolters and plasma cannons are ok on Devs, but points wise, not as efficient as quad MLs. Sad fact is, that due to costs and range quad ML Devs are the only way to go. Heavy bolters are severely overpriced for what they do, and aren't very versatile. MMs are too short ranged, plasma cannons are overpriced as well, and again not as versatile as MLs (but more versatile than heavy bolters IMO), while the lascannon is very, very expensive, and very specialised. MLs are the only option left, and even they're overpriced. Sadly, it's a trend that GW seem to like repeating.

[Stupid Waldo]

So all missile launchers then.  The other major issue I've found (since i do take at least 2 or 3 missile launchers throughout my tac and scout squads) is that they're ineffective against the ground tyrant since it was upgraded to a 2+.  Any effective ideas? the best one so far were hammernators, but in the last match my land raider got torn apart and the termies didn't survive the hordes that bogged them down while they tried to get to the tyrant

[DarkGuard]

If they use Armoured Shell or T-Fexes, then consider a sprinkling of plasma, possibly lascannons, as well as Hammernators.

 

Sternguard are also good, considering they just knock wounds off him by forcing him to take loads of saves.

[Axagoras]

To be honest nids are one of the more powerful armies out now, having T9 monsters is a huge advantage, when fighting them with marines whirlwinds are great for the ignores cover shell and it beats out the TFC because a small blast will only hit 1 guy on a direct hit (2 inch spread). Also watch out for tervigons just pumping out guant swarms, even in CC. Sternguard work well vs nids because of their poisoned rounds and the ignores cover shots, also double heavy flamer speeders get stuff done for only 60 points, just watch out for hive guard because they will take out all of your light armour.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

For the 2+ Tyrant, I think lascannons are the way to go.  They're plentiful, most of them come in twin-linked versions, and they're high nough S and low enough AP that they can reliable wound the big guys.  If the standard Phobos-pattern Land Raider isn't to your liking, Razorbacks are reasonably cheap and don't take up FOC slots (unlike a Dreadnought, but you probably want those Elite slots for Termies and Sternguard), and a combi-Predator brings two lascannons to the table for not much more points.

[Stupid Waldo]

Well in the last game i swapped out the normal loadout on my stormtalon (usually skyhammer missiles) for the lascannons, but his flyrant vector struck it to death in one shot.  My biggest problem are the two of them, and in bigger battles the carnifex he lands behind me.  Usually i have a tyrant coming from the front, and carnifex going after my rear (so i have to be very careful which way my tanks are facing) and a flyrant deep striking into the middle of the battlefield.  Now only recently did i discover the grounded rules for FMC, but still the 3 of them make it so that i either have to choose one to kill and take tons of hits from the others, or split fire and slowly wear them down.  I don't unfortunately have a predator yet, though i'd probably be allowed my vindicator as a stand in.  So sternguard for the armored shell along with the various masses of nids, lots of missile launchers, and possibly a whirlwind to throw down large templates. any other good ideas? this guy tends to use genestealers a lot (which aren't all that hard to kill, until inevitably they get into melee because i'm focused on one of the bigger guys) which more often then not screws up my heroes because he is stupidly good at rolling for his gaze and locking my hero for the rest of the combat, which at most means the broodlord keeps pounding away at his armor, and i keep saving all my stuff, but i never get to strike back.  he has a full brood of hive guard which tend to be able to kill all of my vehicles (6 shots has a very good chance of putting at least one glance on my land raider) and then just a swarm of termagants or hormaguants depending on which he wants to field, and some warriors. nothing too bad, but i do terribly against him nonetheless 

[Disruptor_fe404]

Grounded tests still aren't that reliable. But forcing more tests is always a good thing. I personally like AP2 skyfire, if you can get it, as flakk missiles are good for forcing grounding, but not that good at actually wounding flyrants.

 

Mostly, I just dislike the Biomancy flyrant. But they pay through the nose for that, so it never feels bad.

[infornography]

I think flakk missiles are overcosted.  For the price of four of them you can get an ADL with a quad gun which shoots just as many shots but twin linked.  As a tyranid player myself I can tell you the three things that scare me most are GK storm ravens, krak missiles, and anything with ranged poison.  Mind Strike missiles wound most durable tyranid units on HIT, then have a chance at inflicting another wound normally.  Sniper scouts and sternguard seem like a good way to go for me.

 

Also as was mentioned, dual heavy flamer speeders are amazing for the cost, but are fragile to hive guard.  A risky but powerful move with them is to deep strike them right next to the target needing flame templates applied to it.  High chance of mishap but if you land safely, whatever that target was will die quickly.  Especially if you have Vulkan in the list to twin link them.

[SpecialIssue]

Can't go wrong with Landspeeder Typhoons. One of the best units SMs have, really.

[King Willy]

Sternguard are what I use my

Group has a douche who runs swarm lord fly rant and as many warriors as he can fit so the hellfire rounds come in handy and kraken help give me an extra turn of shooting with that 30 inch range plant them behind an aegis with Lysander or the quad gun and I m not just grounding I m killing fly rants in a turn and a bit swarmlord drops next as he s been walking and The shrikes go down third by then the warriors are close but I still have the rest of my army dealing with them and then I remember stern guard a vets and Lysander cuts them up

[DarkGuard]

It sounds like you have to practise target priority. For example, how far away is that walking Tyrant? Quite far? Then you can probably divert some substantial firepower to those Genestealers which are on your doorstop.

 

Target priority has always been key when playing Nids. I'll give an anecdote from a game I played against my friend. I was Nids and he was GKs. He shot everything at my Swarmlord with two Tyrant Guard in the first two turns. Never mind the masses of Hormagaunts and Gargoyles going towards him, or the Genestealers popping up on the sides of the field. He deployed in the middle, to curb my outflanking units, and decimated the biggest piece of synapse I had. My force fell apart then.

 

Of course, things keep changing, and even I use more synapse than I had back then, but you have to pick your targets to maximum effect. It's hard playing Nids, because you can't be phased by what is coming at you, and that new unit that popped up. You need a game plan and to stick to it, with slight variance for Outflankers etc. Can your Marines handle Hormagaunts in assault? If not, clear them off first, because they'll hit before the Hive Tyrant.

 

Remember as well, that in a balanced list you'll have lots of anti-infantry and anti-vehicle, with maybe some anti-MEQ/TEQ, and maybe some assault capacity. Nids are a little difficult because they don't relate too well here. But use your anti-vehicle for the MCs, your anti-MEQ/TEQ can also go onto them etc. I think that often with Nids, the experience helps. Check the Codex, check your army, check your deployment, check your movement, check your target priority, and above all check your distances.

[Stupid Waldo]

Well I think the biggest reason the walking tyrant draws my fire is cause its one of 2 units that he regularly fields (the other being hive guard, with zoanthrope stand ins occasionally being a threat) that can actually hurt my land raider effectively.  I know stealers are capable of getting through the armor on that thing, but 9/10 he avoids the raider like the plague since the flame storm cannons annihilate pretty much everything he has, the TL AC can punch holes in the stronger units and the multi-melta will hurt anything.  In every game I've won against him, thats always been the key.  redeemer right down the middle, kills at least 15-20 bugs per turn and then dumps hammernators with my captain (a slightly tweaked Vulkan) on his doorstep.  So basically i should use my Aegis line a lot, and give all my tac squads missiles with flakk so i can at least for a number of grounded tests, cause eventually he's gonna fail. also you say sternguard are good, so i'll look into fielding them next. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You might also look into a Storm Talon.  Regardless of weapon used (so long as you upgrade the heavy bolters to something else), you're high enough strength to fairly easily wound the Flyrants, and the assault cannons CAN get AP2, while the lascannons have it naturally.  Plus, you've got twin-linked weapons that go to BS5 against the Flyrants (yup!  Strafing Run only doesn't work on unit types of Flyer and Skimmer, so FMCs, being their own category, are effected by Strafing Run).  So basically there's no excuse for the Talon to miss a shot against it unless your dice hate you.

[Upstartes]

My Tyranid experience is based mostly on fighting a friend who fields a balanced tyranid list with a good mix of monstrous creatures and weenie hordes. I have less experience against nidzilla-type lists, so consider that when reading these suggestions.

 

An aegis line with a quad gun is an obvious choice if you expect a flyrant. In my C:SM games against Tyranids, I've had quad gun plus a storm raven. Between the two of them, I was able to deal with the enemy flyrant without much trouble.

 

I like sniper scouts for shooting at monstrous creatures. The 4+ to wound is good against high-toughness models.

 

If you expect hordes, flamers are your friend - wall of death overwatch goodness - and also cheap.

 

A whirlwind in your backfield is good for horde control.

 

Generally, try to put as many bodies on the board as practical. Don't put too many points into things that aren't cheap marines in power armor. Low model count can really suck against tyranid hordes. Maybe it's not as bad against nidzilla.

 

Lastly, don't be afraid to advance on a squad of choppy tyranids that is probably going to charge you next turn. If you advance into rapid fire and template range and blow a bunch of them up, then again get rapid fire for overwatch, that's much better than hanging back and waiting for them. If you can get really close, think about charging instead of shooting. Yes, it sounds crazy, but taking away the charge bonuses can be a big deal. You will probably lose the assault, but you may be able to drag it out an extra turn, which really interferes with what those choppy nids were supposed to do. The latter was better in 5th edition, when you didn't have random charge distance to worry about, but it can still be useful. I started having an easier time fighting tyranids when I stopped being terrified of getting close to them. Concerned, yes, but not terrified. ;)

[Stupid Waldo]

Strafing run? I thought stormtalons had hover strike? and since they're hovering they can't use the skyfire rule (you need to be zooming for skyfire).  And I have a stormtalon, but somehow, every game my opponent fails his 2nd turn reserve roll for the flyrant, i pass for my talon, i come on and shoot what i can, he deep strikes right next to me and without fail vector strikes me to death in one turn.  I'm getting a little tired of watching his flyrant tear my lightweight flyer to shreds.  And actually I have been charging his guys when they get close.  I specifically try to tie them up, even if i'm going to lose (last game I deep struck an assault squad with chap to tie up his tyrant for a while. i jump-moved and then charged the next turn and rolled a 2. i needed a 3+ to get into combat, and in the ensuing turn he shot the hell out of my squad with his heavy venom cannon and his warriors chilling in the back. another time I assaulted a zoanthrope brood so they would at least stop shooting for a turn or 2 and that was a little more successful).  As for the sternguard, would you recommend taking combi weapons? and if so, which ones? flamers would be my guess, but i've been wrong before, though it seems like having the ability to have at minimum a 5D3 auto hitting overwatch is pretty decent for keeping them out of melee.  And finally, it does appear that my dice hate me, because i've missed all the shots on a twin-linked AC before, and then proceeded to miss all the twin-linked re-rolls as well

[corlinjewell]

Lastly, don't be afraid to advance on a squad of choppy tyranids that is probably going to charge you next turn. If you advance into rapid fire and template range and blow a bunch of them up, then again get rapid fire for overwatch, that's much better than hanging back and waiting for them. If you can get really close, think about charging instead of shooting. Yes, it sounds crazy, but taking away the charge bonuses can be a big deal. You will probably lose the assault, but you may be able to drag it out an extra turn, which really interferes with what those choppy nids were supposed to do. The latter was better in 5th edition, when you didn't have random charge distance to worry about, but it can still be useful. I started having an easier time fighting tyranids when I stopped being terrified of getting close to them. Concerned, yes, but not terrified.

If you do this, never forget that all of your tactical marines carry the Bolt Pistol you can shoot at them (just make sure you don't blow away enough models that you are out of charge distance)

EDIT: Since the supplement, Storm Talons replace hover strike with strafing run. As for the Sternguard loadout, I would check the relatively recent thread on it further down in this subforum. I would take a heavy flamer and, depending on their intended target, either combi-plasmas or combi-flamers.

[Stupid Waldo]

Yeah I used my pistols to shoot first, after I remembered reading about that somewhere.  And I was planning on going mostly combi-flamers, though it might not be a bad idea to go with some combi-plasmas as well.  Seeing as I can combat squad them, i could use one for MC hunting and the other for basic suppression of hordes

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Strafing run? I thought stormtalons had hover strike? and since they're hovering they can't use the skyfire rule (you need to be zooming for skyfire).  And I have a stormtalon, but somehow, every game my opponent fails his 2nd turn reserve roll for the flyrant, i pass for my talon, i come on and shoot what i can, he deep strikes right next to me and without fail vector strikes me to death in one turn.  I'm getting a little tired of watching his flyrant tear my lightweight flyer to shreds.  And actually I have been charging his guys when they get close.  I specifically try to tie them up, even if i'm going to lose (last game I deep struck an assault squad with chap to tie up his tyrant for a while. i jump-moved and then charged the next turn and rolled a 2. i needed a 3+ to get into combat, and in the ensuing turn he shot the hell out of my squad with his heavy venom cannon and his warriors chilling in the back. another time I assaulted a zoanthrope brood so they would at least stop shooting for a turn or 2 and that was a little more successful).  As for the sternguard, would you recommend taking combi weapons? and if so, which ones? flamers would be my guess, but i've been wrong before, though it seems like having the ability to have at minimum a 5D3 auto hitting overwatch is pretty decent for keeping them out of melee.  And finally, it does appear that my dice hate me, because i've missed all the shots on a twin-linked AC before, and then proceeded to miss all the twin-linked re-rolls as well

 

First note, in Death From the Skies, the Storm Talon's Hover Strike was removed.  They gained Strafing Run and true Hover mode instead.  Their points also dropped, so be cognizant of that too.

 

Second note, you can't Vector Strike the turn you deep striking.  You can only Vector Strike units that you pass over during your move, and deep striking isn't a true movement; it's a placement.  Now, if he comes on from Reserves, Swooping, from the table edge, then yes he can Vector Strike, but that means you crossed the mid-line of the table during your Talon's first movement phase, which is a tactical no-no.  Something else to remember: he must declare -- and if he doesn't, ask him -- if his Flyrant is going to be deep striking or staying in simple Reserves.  That decision is very important and must be made BEFORE the game, since it will influence your placement and tactics of all your units.