A 232 year old chapter

[Valkyrion]

The new FW book and terrain has stirred the necron in me and now I want to DIY the Emperor's Swords and their destruction, but I have an issue with their age and am seeking assistance. 

 

The Emperor's Swords are the second chapter to bear this name.

The first chapter was destroyed 485.M40 meaning the second chapter obviously has to come afterwards.

 

The Fire Angels are a 25th founding chapter which happened in M40, the relevance of which comes in IA11 detailing the Fire Angels 1st active engagement in the Fenright Tithe Wars. This war ran from 760.M39 to 411.M40 meaning the 25th founding took place between 001 and 400.M41, which is before the first Emperor's Swords were destroyed, and it is highly unlikely that out of only a thousand chapters there would be two active chapters bearing the same name.

 

This then leaves a thousand year gap until 738.M41 and the latest, 26th, founding.

 

This means if I want to DIY the second Emperor's Swords then they are 232 years old at the time of their demise and they have to be a 26th founding chapter.

 

This is incredibly young for a chapter and would mean they have no history and barely an origin to speak of, making an IA of them tricky, so any advice on that would be helpful.

 

Also, from a functionality point of view, what would the status of a 200 year old chapter be? Would they still be in the process of building and therefore not involved in any real campaign, or would they be being babysat by another chapter? It's unlikely they'd have any/many dreadnoughts, which is a shame because I like dreadnoughts, and is 200 years long enough to even have any veterans?

 

Any advice on birthing and killing this chapter would be greatly appreciated.

 

(I also understand if this is bumped to Liber, but I was of the opinion that since every chapter was 200 years old once this does cover foundings in general)

[Mr.selfdestruct]

I personally don't see anything wrong with fleshing out a "young" chapter like this.  In any source of background (official or homegrown) I've read, a newfound chapter is rarely 'babysat' for more than a century.  Even then, your command structure should be brought in from another parent chapter and would have more than 200 years of experience.  I don't think there would be any real loss of functionality of a chapter of this age, when one condsiders that scout training involves hypnotic indoctrination, mentally force feeding the neophytes decades of recorded tactics and skill.  As to dreads, I would say definitely include them! Maybe go light on Venerables though as this would be harder to explain.  I think it would make the story of the interred marine even more bittersweet actually. Brand new chapter, brand new warriors ready to face the dangers of the galaxy...then Brother So-and-so commits and act of insane bravery on his first campaign.  He awakes in a sarcophagus, wondering if he was destined for anything more than this?  Cool stuff.

  Oooh, last second idea:  Perhaps they ARE still being babysat...include a chaplain, second captain, or command squad that is actually from their parent chapter on loan to oversee the new kids.  I'd give them the same armor colors as the rest of your force, but leave their original chapter shoulder pad (much like the Deathwatch). This could be in keeping solidarity and respect for the chapter in training.  Just my 2 cents.  Good luck!

[Leonaides]

200 years is still more than most marines will see due to combat losses etc... By that time they are up to full strenght and possibly on their 2nd or 3rd generation of veterans... A marine can be a veteran (as in experienced combat trooper) after 20-30 years (far more combat than any non-marine will ever see) and a Veteran (as in first company inductee) potentially sooner than that - acts of extreme valour or combat capability can elevate a marine to Veteran status quicker. Veteran status is not a case of time served, though time served will allow a marine more opportunities to display merit to become a Veteran. 

[Baldsmug]

I like your idea. Also, Dreadnoughts do not always have to be ancient. They just have to be the most kickass and wounded in such a way that interment in dread armor is possible. Like Techamarine Harkness in Ultra Marines books.

[Valkyrion]

This might be edging towards liber, but for what it's worth I'll post a few ideas here.

 

Given the age of the chapter I presume from an aesthetics point of view I should heavily restrict the amount of MKII-MKV armour and the old style FW weaponry, whilst from a fluff point of view then things like Contemptors, Land Raider Spartans/Proteus, Venerables should be a virtual no-no, whilst even normal Land Raiders, Terminator armour and Dreadnoughts should be restricted? What about Plasma weaponry? is that still as rare as it was portrayed back in the day?

On the other hand, the chapter will have full access to the new toys like Ravens, Talons, Thunderfires and anything Rhino based?

 

In what way does the company structure evolve for a new chapter? e.g is a chapter this age likely to be at full strength before it shoots off into the wider galaxy, or will it have maybe a battle and/or reserve company that still doesn't exist?

A basic idea was to have the chapter at about 600 marines by the time the necrons eat them and wonder if this is reasonable.

 

Lastly, in terms of the necron invasion itself - at what point would the chapter know necrons were there? Presumably a fortress is riddled with sensors and scanners, so would they activate as soon as the crons start to move? I was thinking of the chapter having a largely subterranean fortress monastery and that the chapter itself actually woke the necrons.

 

Cheers!

[RolandTHTG]

While I don't know how much of my opinion is backed in fluff, I've always considered a chapter's founding date to be the date they are ready for service. I.E, the dates listed as the 'founding dates' is the day that the new chapters were given their founding heraldry and officially declared as full chapters. by fluff, it takes about 100 years, give or take for the initial geneseed to be readied, so the order for a new founding could easily include "and shall be ready for deployment by the emperor's feast day 150 years from now." with that date being the official Founding Date. 

basically, I'm picturing a kind of stretched out version of the 17th-18th century mustering of new regiments.

[Leonaides]

takes 50 years to get the full sets of geneseed grown iirc

[Grimdarkness]

A lot can happen in a couple hundred years look at the last 100 plus years. Two world wars uncounted small local war's and a host of  civil war's. You could have squads serving in a lot of small little hot house wars.

[Valkyrion]

While I don't know how much of my opinion is backed in fluff, I've always considered a chapter's founding date to be the date they are ready for service. I.E, the dates listed as the 'founding dates' is the day that the new chapters were given their founding heraldry and officially declared as full chapters. by fluff, it takes about 100 years, give or take for the initial geneseed to be readied, so the order for a new founding could easily include "and shall be ready for deployment by the emperor's feast day 150 years from now." with that date being the official Founding Date. 

basically, I'm picturing a kind of stretched out version of the 17th-18th century mustering of new regiments.

 

Can anyone support this?

It makes sense because otherwise you'll have the founding officers sat around for 50 years doing nothing whilst all the geneseed is readied, plus further time spent training.

 

High Lords say 'this chapter from your geneseed is ready. Send some dudes to sort them out' and away they go into the wide black yonder, fully armed and combat ready.

[Malthe]

I think you are underestimating how long time 232 years is... Sure it's short from a perspective of Imperial History, but you have to compare that with life-time expectancy to get a feeling for it.

Marines can be old, sure, but most likely they won't. That anti-tyranid chaplain of the Ultramarines is what, 600 years old?

And he is considered bloody ancient!

 

Compare it to modern day: 232 years ago was 1781. A lot has happened since.

[Leonaides]

ALso consider, give a founding officer cadre of say 30ish, allow for 10 techs and apocs leaving only 20 marines to actually train the new marines, that's if everyone does it. I'd have thought 2-3 will be dealing with ship command, 2-3 with the chapters deploymentzone issues research, so maybe only 10 actual training sergeants. EVen with scout squads of 20 they can only train 200 every 10 years...

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

But that number would increase - say after the first batch you keep the five sneakiest Marines back to train more, you can train 300 in the next 10 years - that's 500. Do it again and you train 400. At this point you can afford to drop back down to 10 man Squads because you have, allowing for casualties, over half a Chapter still. Seems plausible that with care you could have a Chapter up and running (relatively) quickly.

[Valkyrion]

Could the necessary expedience required to train up a new chapter from scratch perhaps pave the way for Black Templar type units?

 

Human becomes recruit, gets adopted by a proper marine, marine says he's good to go, recruit becomes 10th company Scout?

So in the grand scheme of things, you'd have (say) the 6th/7th Company acting as your training company before the noob then becomes a proper scout, and thereafter following the normal progression into the battle companies?

 

I've always found the new chapter thing a bit odd in that it either has to work top down or bottom up, either way leaving big holes.

e.g in a brand new chapter, once a scout becomes a marine, where does he go? 9th company or straight to a battle company? Either way, at the beginning there can only be either reserve OR battle companies, not both, simply because there aren't enough marines. Does that make sense?

 

That's why I quite like the idea of TJWyrm that the founding date is the good to go date - the marines are already prepared and trained and even if they don't have 1000 they could have at least half that so they can start killing stuff as they are cut loose and have to find their own recruitment worlds, homeworld and so on. 

[Brother Tyler]

While anything is possible, new Chapters founded along the lines of the Black Templars aren't likely.

 

The Codex Astartes forms the model upon which most (possibly all, with few exceptions) Chapters are built. It may not be universally enforceable, but it is the playbook that was accepted by the Imperium.

 

There are two basic ways in which a new Chapter might develop along the lines of the Black Templars.

 

First would be for the Black Templars to have a hand in the new Chapter's founding, most likely as the older Chapter that trains the newer Chapter (whether or not the Black Templars are the parent Chapter).

 

Second would be for the new Chapter to be founded along the standard Codex Astartes lines, but to diverge for some reason.

 

The first scenario is unlikely (though still within the realm of the possible). While many players will claim that the Inquisition and Imperium don't trust the Black Templars, there is no support for this argument. Some within the Inquisition and/or Imperium may be suspicious of the Black Templars, but the scope of this distrust has never been defined (it may be only a small number of individuals whose collective lack of trust has no appreciable influence in the grand scheme of things). Others will rightfully point to the Imperium tending to create Codex Chapters and of using the gene-seed of Roboute Guilliman most often in creating new Chapters; and this has significant official references as support. Games Workshop has never explicitly or implicitly stated that the Black Templars don't have any Successors, however. If such exist, the existing material would seem to indicate that Black Templars Successors are few and far between. While many (including me) might think that these hypothetical Black Templars Successors are probably older, dating back to before there was any suspicion of the Black Templars Chapter, it's possible that some might be from more recent foundings. If you choose to use this option, many/most players will be immediately resistant; and those that might be accepting of Black Templars Successors might desire significant explanation (which doesn't mean that you have to give it to them, but it will definitely color any discussion).

 

If you go with the second option, you "simply" (and that's probably an understatement) have to provide a solid explanation for what might have motivated the newer Chapter to deviate from the norm and adopt a decidedly non-standard organization and training methodology. "Purists" will rightfully point to the vast majority of Chapters continuing to use the Codex organization and training methodology, despite the likelihood of setbacks at multiple times over the last nine thousand or so years (so the Codex organization has to be pretty effective).

 

The second option is likely to be much easier to implement than the first.

 

Now your point about progression is an interesting one. The progression from Scout to Tactical is one way to go, but you could very easily decide that your Chapter has its own progression. This might be viewed as a divergence from the norm, but probably one that is acceptable. Perhaps your Chapter evaluates aspirants while they serve in the Scout company, identifying those that have a special aptitude for assault or for fire support and possibly sending them to the appropriate reserve company. My personal view is that the most likely progression is for scouts to be moved to either the Sixth or Seventh companies (Tactical Reserve). Most of these battle-brothers will then move to one of the Battle companies when they are fully trained and when those companies need replacements. Some, however, might demonstrate a particular aptitude and might be sent to the Assault or Devastator Reserve companies, later moving up to a Battle company in their specialty role as needed. This is not the currently accepted norm, but could easily be justified and might fit with your perception.

 

Now when a Chapter is in the process of being created (or of reconstituting itself after heavy losses), we're likely to see the focus on the well-rounded Tactical role. All members receive some training in the specialty assault/devastator roles, or at least in the techniques and tactics of assault/melee and heavy weapons employment, but only those that show an aptitude are fully immersed in those roles. As a Chapter increases in size, and as battle-brothers become more experienced, the breadth of their training will increase. Ultimately, a veteran will be trained in all the aspects of warfighting, though he may demonstrate an aptitude or preference for one of the more niche roles and be employed most often in that role (which is why we have Vanguard veterans).

 

There are a lot of things that you can do to create small divergences, as well as to impose your view of what is realistic.

 

Note that I'm moving this to Liber Astartes as the discussion has a decidedly developmental flavor about it.

[Inquisitor Kravin]

I realise that technology has degraded and the marines aren't given the same priority by the Imperium but the Great Crusade only lasted about 200 years and the Imperium managed to raise more marines than there are in the 41st millennium (18 - 20 legions of potentially over 100,000 marines each) compared with 1000 chapters of 1000 marines.

 

In the Heresy era they have veterans, dreadnoughts and even venerable dreads.

[Valkyrion]

Fine with the move, cheers!

 

I'm not too fussed about diverting from the codex norm in terms of recruitment, just brainstorming that particular area. 

The chapter is likely to be of Ultramarine, via the Novamarines descent, because the Novamarines hate xenos more than your average bear and that's the feel I want, plus it allows me two colours schemes as a nod to their parent chapter - bone veterans, blue normals.

 

I want the chapter to be mech mobile as their preferred fighting style - using the DA dex as the 1st Company with the RWBK and DW combo and possibly using the BA dex with their fast vehicles, plus the red thirsting bit can reinforce their hatred.

I also like the idea of running 5-6 man squads as the norm (rather than combat squadding) with the Razorback being their primary support vehicle due to the ease of manufacture and replacement. Is running 20 x 5 man units instead of 10 x 10 man units too codex breaking, or is anything within the established 100 fair game?

 

In terms of fluff I'm thinking of having the created with the specific intention of killing these http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zygo#.UXEXvqI3tkI - I like the idea of these aliens fighting off Imperial attacks for years before the Imperium finally decides enough is enough and sends an entire chapter after them. Half the chapter could even be on campaign there when the Necrons wake up, leaving them understrength.

 

Homeworld wise it's going to be a desert with no natural life, but that was once clearly occupied by the Imperium with ruined cities still dotted about as though some climatic event destroyed all life, prior to which the inhabitants set about building subterranean habitation to protect them from whatever was about to happen. The chapter then expands this and calls it home. This allows for use of the Zone Mortalis stuff and the snippet of information from the necron codex about the necrons playing games within the fortress monastery - I don't have the resources or the inclination to actually build a fortress monastery, so tunnels suit me best.

 

These are the three things I don't really want to budge from - mobile zygo killing underground dwellers. That gives me the starting point of my origin, combat doctrine, geneseed and homeworld.

[rickybob]

The main things that set the Inquisition and High Lords off in regards to Space Marine Chapters are heresy, size and gene seed mutation. Black Templars are under the microscope so to speak due to numbers, however as they have always been totally loyal, scattered all over the galaxy and caused no real trouble a blind eye is turned in regards to their numbers. As your chapter shows none of the above symptoms, 5-6 man squads cruising around in Razorbacks would be totally fine. I'm sure vehicle crews don't count towards the 1000 limit, but if you like some sort of permanently mechanised formation could exist within the chapter (one or more of the companies, maybe?).

[Octavulg]

The first scenario is unlikely (though still within the realm of the possible). While many players will claim that the Inquisition and Imperium don't trust the Black Templars, there is no support for this argument.

"Certain members of the Inquisition have expressed concern over the potential size of the Chapter..." - p 8, C:BT 4e (there's no evidence, though, so no one has challenged them)

"...the Black Templars are at the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element." - p 9, C:BT 4e

"...they keep their own counsel as to where and when they will make war - a fact that gives many in the Imperium great cause for concern." - p 9, C:BT 4e

"[Chapters which diverge from the Codex Astartes] were always few in number, and their presence diminishes further with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." p 24, C:SM 5e

Yeah. That's the sort of Chapter that the Imperium would line up to make more of.

* * *

Anyway, in something a little more topical:

Two hundred years seems like a really short time to diverge from the Codex. It's definitely long enough to get some serious recruitment done (the Chapter could make it to full strength), but the Codex is a Big Deal. I'd just expect combat squadding to be a regular happening than them to actually change the Codex to do five man squads. I mean, other Chapters use Razorbacks without making all their squads five man.

Also, remember that "Codex" is a very nebulous term. Among other things, the Codex seems to get rewritten a lot. Almost anything can be interpreted as Codex (I like to think variations on the order of squad progression are just different versions of the Codex). I'd just have them be Codex with some methods that they happen to favour right now.

[Gripharius]

Although the DIY guide discourages the "lost in the warp" meme, I think that using the warp to give your Chapter a few extra centuries to really develop shouldn't necessarily be verboten. In other words, if you aren't using the warp angle to just make the Chapter super-duper awesome, or ultra old just for the sake of being ancient, and you are honestly seeking more time for the Chapter's history, I think you can make it work.

 

You have to write it well and not overdue it, but a jaunt into the Eye that lasts a few hundred years for your Chapter but only a few decades on the Imperium side might work.

 

Maybe their ships fall out of the warp in a strange, uncharted end system amidst a warp storm. They crash or their warp drives bUrn out and they spend a few hundred years fighting bad guys and fixing their ships, then when they finally get out of there and back to known space, only a few years of time has passed.

 

That's completely oversimplified, but I think this is one of those occasions when you can go against the letter of the rule as long as you keep to the spirit of it.

[Messor]

How would that work? It seems like if there's a crash or warp drive failure...they drop back into real time. When you're in the warp, what is there to do besides warp travel? They could be attacked in the warp, but hundreds of years of kicking demons off your ships doesn't amount to much history. The only work would be crash or what have you, history ensues, then the warp would actually have to do some time traveling for you...or I guess a really really big warp storm.

[Gripharius]

I guess I was under the impression that there were places other than the Eye of Terror where time passed differently than real time. Like pockets in the warp, or places engulfed by warp storms that, while not necessary fully in the warp, were still out of phase with real time.

[Messor]

Yeah, I suppose a warp storm could work, but to keep it from being too convenient, I would have the storm occur in their path, knocking them from the warp and sealing them in whatever system...which still sounds a little convenient...but not too much so.

[Octavulg]

There are countries with histories less than two centuries. Hell, plenty of stuff happened in the Hundred Years War, and guess how long that was.

 

If you can't have interesting stuff happen in two generations and/or two centuries, you're not trying.

[Leonaides]

Just because you com eout of the warp - there's no actual guarnatee that you will arrive back in teh same time. It has happened before that imperial fleets have answered a distress call only to find themselves arriving at a planet before it has been attacked. +/- 2-3 years is considered accurate for a warp jump.

[Malthe]

There are countries with histories less than two centuries. Hell, plenty of stuff happened in the Hundred Years War, and guess how long that was.If you can't have interesting stuff happen in two generations and/or two centuries, you're not trying.

This.

 

Make them ambitious, eager, perhaps a bit naive. Overconfident in their own abilities since they've never suffered a set back. Hell bent on saving the Imperium and doing it right.

There's plenty of ways to make a chapter stand out simply by virtue of being young, don't warp-storm-cheat to take away the most interesting aspect of your chapter.